Hoagies, Cheesesteaks, Pork Italiano

[Mummer]

Wit?

Perhaps fried onions solves the rabe vs. spinach discussion.

My experience is that Mom at John's thinks rabe is too bitter while Tony Luke's and DiNic's let the customer choose.

I'd like my pork sub with American, lettuce and tomato. NOT!

[Carlson1105]

Sounds like the Steak and Cheese sandwich I used to make in DC while working in a pizza place. Steak, Onions, Cheese, Lettuce, Tomato, and Mayo. The lettuce and tomato would wilt from the hot steak. No thanks!

[philadining]

Wit?

Perhaps fried onions solves the rabe vs. spinach discussion.

My experience is that Mom at John's thinks rabe is too bitter while Tony Luke's and DiNic's let the customer choose.

I'd like my pork sub with American, lettuce and tomato.  NOT!

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Ahh, the confusing world of the Philly sandwich slang. People often confuse "wit" with "whiz," not understanding that the "wit" is with onions, and that the term only makes sense when ordering a cheesesteak. You can't get a hoagie wit.

And I think the reason that "sub" sounded so strange used to describe a cheesesteak or roast pork is because, as mentioned above, we don't consider those a type of "hoagie." Most places call anything on the same shape roll a "sub" or "zep" or whatever, but "hoagie" is more about the dressing than the roll. Although the long Italian roll is required. It's not a hoagie if it's on a kaiser roll. But it's also not a hoagie if it's got cheesesteak stuff in the roll, unless it's a cheesesteak hoagie. Crazy.

I've been musing about the terminology a little on my blog so it would have a permalink, and wouldn't get lost in this more general discussion. Any more tips or tricks for ordering like a native?

[Bluehensfan]

Wit?

Perhaps fried onions solves the rabe vs. spinach discussion.

My experience is that Mom at John's thinks rabe is too bitter while Tony Luke's and DiNic's let the customer choose.

I'd like my pork sub with American, lettuce and tomato.  NOT!

←

Ahh, the confusing world of the Philly sandwich slang. People often confuse "wit" with "whiz," not understanding that the "wit" is with onions, and that the term only makes sense when ordering a cheesesteak. You can't get a hoagie wit.

And I think the reason that "sub" sounded so strange used to describe a cheesesteak or roast pork is because, as mentioned above, we don't consider those a type of "hoagie." Most places call anything on the same shape roll a "sub" or "zep" or whatever, but "hoagie" is more about the dressing than the roll. Although the long Italian roll is required. It's not a hoagie if it's on a kaiser roll. But it's also not a hoagie if it's got cheesesteak stuff in the roll, unless it's a cheesesteak hoagie. Crazy.

I've been musing about the terminology a little on my blog so it would have a permalink, and wouldn't get lost in this more general discussion. Any more tips or tricks for ordering like a native?

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At DiNic's they have alphabetic designations for the food. If I weren't too busy salivating at the meat when I order, I should know this by now. I seem to remember the following:

P stands for roast pork (or is it R?)

C is for cheese

G is for greens

Anyway, I think most stuff can be ordered by simply blurting out a few letters. (If you remember what they stand for...)

[Holly Moore]

Any more tips or tricks for ordering like a native?

Be sure to say "Please" and "Thank you" and make a point to be friendly and take some time to get to know the person taking your cheesesteak order.

[mrbigjas]

I've been musing about the terminology a little on my blog so it would have a permalink, and wouldn't get lost in this more general discussion.  Any more tips or tricks for ordering like a native?

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fun blog post. but i think you should add george's roast pork to the list of iconic places. it's right in the market, the pork is good, and... man it's midnight and i'm just back from the caribbean and all i want is a roast pork sandwich.

[philadining]

I've been musing about the terminology a little on my blog so it would have a permalink, and wouldn't get lost in this more general discussion.  Any more tips or tricks for ordering like a native?

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fun blog post. but i think you should add george's roast pork to the list of iconic places. it's right in the market, the pork is good, and... man it's midnight and i'm just back from the caribbean and all i want is a roast pork sandwich.

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Ahh, excellent point, thanks! I haven't been in a million years, so I don't remember details. Any secrets to getting the ultimate sandwich, any ways to make George smile, or at least not growl?

[Andrew Fenton]

I don't know any particular secrets for George's, but they do make a fine sandwich. I've never been growled at either, but that's probably due to my innate charm and good looks.

Oh, and George's also deserves props for having tripe sandwiches on the menu. It's not like I eat those often, but it's nice to know that they're there.

[john b]

Most places call anything on the same shape roll a "sub" or "zep" or whatever, but "hoagie" is more about the dressing than the roll.  Although the long Italian roll is required.  It's not a hoagie if it's on a kaiser roll.  But it's also not a hoagie if it's got cheesesteak stuff in the roll, unless it's a cheesesteak hoagie.  Crazy.

Is it a hoagie if you use mayo, and not oil/vinegar? I say not--it's a sandwich on a hoagie roll.

[zeffer81]

At DiNic's they have alphabetic designations for the food. If I weren't too busy salivating at the meat when I order, I should know this by now. I seem to remember the following:

P stands for roast pork (or is it R?)

C is for cheese

G is for greens

Anyway, I think most stuff can be ordered by simply blurting out a few letters. (If you remember what they stand for...)

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I know Z is brisket (I learned the hard way; I conceitedly thought it stood for Zoe!) Joe--what letters stand for cheese and greens, hold the pork please?

Most places call anything on the same shape roll a "sub" or "zep" or whatever, but "hoagie" is more about the dressing than the roll.  Although the long Italian roll is required.  It's not a hoagie if it's on a kaiser roll.  But it's also not a hoagie if it's got cheesesteak stuff in the roll, unless it's a cheesesteak hoagie.  Crazy.

Is it a hoagie if you use mayo, and not oil/vinegar? I say not--it's a sandwich on a hoagie roll.

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I say YES. A hoagie is cold with any combination of meat/cheese/veggies and either mayo or oil & vinegar. I get the vinegary flavor from the hot or banana peppers.

[mrbigjas]

I've been musing about the terminology a little on my blog so it would have a permalink, and wouldn't get lost in this more general discussion.  Any more tips or tricks for ordering like a native?

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fun blog post. but i think you should add george's roast pork to the list of iconic places. it's right in the market, the pork is good, and... man it's midnight and i'm just back from the caribbean and all i want is a roast pork sandwich.

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Ahh, excellent point, thanks! I haven't been in a million years, so I don't remember details. Any secrets to getting the ultimate sandwich, any ways to make George smile, or at least not growl?

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i've never had noticeable service there. i mean, not noticeably cheerful or noticeably grouchy. hm.... i'll have to go back.

[Mummer]

I had a hot roast pork from the Ardmore Primo today. The meat is heated to order so it doesn't have that au jus wetness one gets from the big three, but I'm thrilled that I don't need to go into town for a pork Italiano fix.

They had a good crowd on a Saturday at 1:30. I'm gonna start phoning in my orders.

[MarketStEl]

Is it a hoagie if you use mayo, and not oil/vinegar?  I say not--it's a sandwich on a hoagie roll.

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Well, then.

What would you say about the only person in the entire Philadelphia metropolitan area who always asks for mustard as well as mayo on his hoagies?

Except at Salumeria, where they have a very good sauce of their own making. Said sauce, however, is mayo-based, so I'm not sure I'd sign on to this particular purist distinction even if I didn't request mustard.

--Sandy, whose last excursion to Salumeria was an unfortunate bad hoagie trip

[monavano]

Is it a hoagie if you use mayo, and not oil/vinegar?  I say not--it's a sandwich on a hoagie roll.

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Well, then.

What would you say about the only person in the entire Philadelphia metropolitan area who always asks for mustard as well as mayo on his hoagies?

Except at Salumeria, where they have a very good sauce of their own making. Said sauce, however, is mayo-based, so I'm not sure I'd sign on to this particular purist distinction even if I didn't request mustard.

--Sandy, whose last excursion to Salumeria was an unfortunate bad hoagie trip

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Mustard..that's a wild card!

What about a cheesesteak hoagie. It's a cheesesteak, and a hoagie. Does that make it a choagie??

At any rate, I think the WaPo writer was using the local vernacular when referring to the hoagie/sandwich as subs. It just rolls off the tongue with the locals here and nobody say's hoagie. Even at places that serve up honest to goodness hoagies. Nope-still a sub.

Oh well.

BTW..Steak and Cheese subs are very popular here, and are essentially a cheesesteak hoagie. Even with the word "Philly" in front of it, and even with the words transposed to say cheese steak, they always come with mayo, tomato and lettuce.

Oh well. By now I know where to get my fixes of pizza, cheesesteaks and hoagies. Call them what they may here in the DC region.

[rlibkind]

Except at Salumeria, where they have a very good sauce of their own making.  Said sauce, however, is mayo-based, so I'm not sure I'd sign on to this particular purist distinction even if I didn't request mustard.

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You sure about being mayo-based, Sandy? I always thought the house dressing was a vinaigrette-based concoction. I'll ask next time I'm there.

[phungi]

What about a cheesesteak hoagie. It's a cheesesteak, and a hoagie. Does that make it a choagie??

At any rate, I think the WaPo writer was using the local vernacular when referring to the hoagie/sandwich as subs. It just rolls off the tongue with the locals here and nobody say's hoagie. Even at places that serve up honest to goodness hoagies. Nope-still a sub.

Oh well.

BTW..Steak and Cheese subs are very popular here, and are essentially a cheesesteak hoagie. Even with the word "Philly" in front of it, and even with the words transposed to say cheese steak, they always come with mayo, tomato and lettuce.

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I was in Atlantic City this weekend, and had a Cheesesteak Hoagie from White House, which is my personal favorite cheesesteak. While mayo would likely cause a few long stares, a Cheesesteak Hoagie at White House is as normal as a Wiz Steak in S. Philly.

Best Meatball Parm I have ever had, as well. I was so happy to be having a 1/4 of each that i forgot to take photos.

[mrbigjas]

Mustard..that's a wild card!

by 'wild card' do you mean 'just plain wrong'?

[MarketStEl]

Except at Salumeria, where they have a very good sauce of their own making.  Said sauce, however, is mayo-based, so I'm not sure I'd sign on to this particular purist distinction even if I didn't request mustard.

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You sure about being mayo-based, Sandy? I always thought the house dressing was a vinaigrette-based concoction. I'll ask next time I'm there.

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I wouldn't stake my life on this, but I swear I saw the sauce being applied with a spreader.

I don't think you'd need one of those to apply a vinaigrette sauce -- that would require the same sorts of bottles most places use to hold the oil and vinegar.

A spreader would be needed for a thicker sauce, such as one based on an emulsified sauce like mayonnaise. There are, however, creamy salad dressings that are basically oil, vinegar and some emulsifier, and those can also be spread instead of shaken or poured, so you may still be right.

[Andrew Fenton]

Yeah, the sauce at Salumeria is definitely slathered. That ain't no vinaigrette, there.

but hey! now I have an excuse to get a hoagie tonight! Yay, research!

[serpentine]

Guys, I think you're basically all correct about Salumeria. To my tongue, it's a thickened dijon-based vinaigrette.

[rlibkind]

It's highly emulsified, but I'm pretty sure it's egg-less, which means it's not mayonnaise.

[Bluehensfan]

It's highly emulsified, but I'm pretty sure it's egg-less, which means it's not mayonnaise.

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Reminds me of that old SNL skit..."New Shimmer is both a floor wax and a dessert topping!"

[Tim Dolan]

Cheesesteak updates in the Manayunk/Roxborough area: there's a new place right off Main St., on the corner of Cresson and Levering caleed Duff's Steaks. They have a number of crazy, non-traditional offerings such a beast of a sandwich called the Junk in the Yunk. It's a cheesesteak with chicken fingers, fries, Whiz and American cheese buried underneath a pile of chopped steak. It's guarenteed to make purists roll their eyes in disgust, but it's not bad at all. I took a picture of it on my cell phone so I'll try to get it on here at some point. As for their traditional cheesesteak, I'd say it easily competes for second-best in the neighborhood behind Dalessandro's.

Which brings me to my next point: Dalessandro's has just been sold to new owners. THIS I am extremely worried about. I don't know much about the details behind the sale, other than that the new owners have said the want to introduce a few new items to the menu. I was just in there last week and everything seemed as normal as ever, and one of my friends was there yesterday and told me the same thing. But you know how fast that can change. I don't care what they want to introduce, as long as they don't do a damn thing differently with their normal cheesesteak!

[Rich Pawlak]

Used to live just a few blocks from Dallessandro's, and it was a great reliable cheesesteak fix for me. I better get back and check to see if any changes are apparent. Hey, let's hope not. That steak, and the bowls of hot peppers scattered along the counter, are a singular experience.

[Jeff L]

And I think the reason that "sub" sounded so strange used to describe a cheesesteak or roast pork is because, as mentioned above, we don't consider those a type of "hoagie."  Most places call anything on the same shape roll a "sub" or "zep" or whatever, but "hoagie" is more about the dressing than the roll.  Although the long Italian roll is required.  It's not a hoagie if it's on a kaiser roll.  But it's also not a hoagie if it's got cheesesteak stuff in the roll, unless it's a cheesesteak hoagie.  Crazy.

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Interestingly, this topic continues in this months Gourmet magazine which has a nice feature on both Formica Bros Bakery and White House Subs. Formica bakes their rolls.

Funny thing is the slant is on subs not hoagies. "The sub has plenty of crazy aliases (grinder, bomber, hoagie, blimp, zep, wedge) and countless cognates around the nation".

Nice article and I hear pretty great hoagies too!