Palm (One) - the Original

[Holly Moore]

"Also there are those who do not accept that prime guarantees the best tasting/eating steak. They maintain that there is more flavor in a high end choice steak."

for those who believe this is a true statement, i have a bridge for sale.

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More details on the bridge please.

[R Washburn]

Interesting article, oakapple. I will no longer be apologetic about buttering my steaks before grilling, if even Peter Luger butters there's.

[tommy]

"Also there are those who do not accept that prime guarantees the best tasting/eating steak. They maintain that there is more flavor in a high end choice steak."

for those who believe this is a true statement, i have a bridge for sale.

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More details on the bridge please.

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LOL!

while it's clear that many factors go into a great steak, least of all not personal preference...*certainly* not least of all personal preference..., i prefer the minerally flavor that comes from dry-aged steak. with or without butter, charred exterior and USDA grading aside, i've enjoyed that flavor at Luger's, Wolfgang's, and Ben & Jack's. not recently at the Palm. or any of the 3 in NYC. or are there 4 now. who can keep track.

Edited October 19, 2005 by tommy (log)

[jgould]

"Also there are those who do not accept that prime guarantees the best tasting/eating steak. They maintain that there is more flavor in a high end choice steak."

for those who believe this is a true statement, i have a bridge for sale.

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More details on the bridge please.

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LOL

[jgould]

"Also there are those who do not accept that prime guarantees the best tasting/eating steak. They maintain that there is more flavor in a high end choice steak."

for those who believe this is a true statement, i have a bridge for sale.

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More details on the bridge please.

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LOL!

while it's clear that many factors go into a great steak, least of all not personal preference...*certainly* not least of all personal preference..., i prefer the minerally flavor that comes from dry-aged steak. with or without butter, charred exterior and USDA grading aside, i've enjoyed that flavor at Luger's, Wolfgang's, and Ben & Jack's. not recently at the Palm. or any of the 3 in NYC. or are there 4 now. who can keep track.

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KIM: the article & such referred to the better known national chaims sprouting up everywhere. it did not include the smaller privately-held, usually 1- location steakhouses, like PL's, BB's, Wolfgang's, Pietro's, BLT Steak & Prime, Spark's, MJ's & the Strip House (Glazer chain), Del Frisco (chain??), etc...

not to change the focus, but as u know, ben & jack's was recently panned.

[tommy]

KIM: the article & such referred to the better known national chaims sprouting up everywhere. it did not include the smaller privately-held, usually 1- location steakhouses, like PL's, BB's, Wolfgang's, Pietro's, BLT Steak & Prime,  Spark's, MJ's & the Strip House (Glazer chain), Del Frisco (chain??), etc...

not to change the focus, but as u know, ben & jack's was recently panned.

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the focus got lost when people started opining on the very subjective "what makes a great steak" issue. i agree that it's probably naive to simply go by an assertion that a restaurant serves dry-aged USDA prime beef when choosing a steakhouse. as as been suggested by others, i think more goes into that. (although, i think a proper dry-aging is key element, and a USDA Prime certification can't hurt. it's a very good baseline, and one which i don't drop below when buying steaks for home cooking.)

Ben & Jack's serves a "better" steak than the Palm in my estimation, regardless of that questionable review. my preference. frankly, i have better taste than that reviewer.

Edited October 19, 2005 by tommy (log)

[jgould]

KIM: the article & such referred to the better known national chaims sprouting up everywhere. it did not include the smaller privately-held, usually 1- location steakhouses, like PL's, BB's, Wolfgang's, Pietro's, BLT Steak & Prime,  Spark's, MJ's & the Strip House (Glazer chain), Del Frisco (chain??), etc...

not to change the focus, but as u know, ben & jack's was recently panned.

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the focus got lost when people started opining on the very subjective "what makes a great steak" issue. i agree that it's probably naive to simply go by an assertion that a restaurant serves dry-aged USDA prime beef when choosing a steakhouse. as as been suggested by others, i think more goes into that. (although, i think a proper dry-aging is key element, and a USDA Prime certification can't hurt. it's a very good baseline, and one which i don't drop below when buying steaks for home cooking.)

Ben & Jack's serves a "better" steak than the Palm in my estimation, regardless of that questionable review. my preference. frankly, i have better taste than that reviewer.

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LOL, glad to see an "objective" commentator

true, taste is subjective; however, there should be 1 fact quite clear: the raw material, i.e., the piece of meat. it seems hard to argue, but that has never stopped anyone here, that a dry-aged, USDA Prime is not essential, but many here don't seem to have a problem doing so.

as to the "subjectiveness of dry-aging & grading issues - "u go with what u got". be nice to witness whether meat should be dry-aged 7, 14, 21 days; or whether the USDA agent is incompetent, but as i said, "we have to go with what we got", or baselines would become meaningless, then bring in the subjectiveness of taste.

as i stated earlier, very recently had a delicious meal @ Palm One, & not tried ben & jack's, although, i must say, i was turned off by the review, so i guess, the subliminal power of the press works! conincidentally, 2 people whom with i spoke about selecting the palm (one) over dinner @ S&W, panned S&W, even when i mentioned to them S&W is the only other "chain" steakhouse in manhattan that serves dry-aged USDA Prime steaks.

oddly, no one here ever brings up Del Frisco!!??

[Busboy]

Down here in DC the wet-aged Palm steak still tastes pretty good, but the real appeal of the Palm is that its a clubhouse for boyz and certain cool chicks, where if you know a couple of folks you get exceptional service and the occasional free martini. My wife once worked in the same building and had enough juice that they once rigged a TV so that we could eat dinner at a table with my visiting family and still watch the alma mater GW almost make it past the sweet 16 for the first time in 40 years. I'll always like the Palm, and some of the old guys still recognize us when we drop in.

On the wet-aging thing, I always thought that wet-aged beef was inferior protein, but the excellent excellent steaks Michael Landrum is turning out at Ray's show how much you can get out of a wet-aged, choice (!) cut when the guy behind the line knows and cares about what he's doing.

[wesza]

If the poster meant that there is a lot of variation within USDA prime, and the best steakhouses have a superior source of USDA Prime beef then I agree with him.

I certainly did mean that. Steve Cuozzo has a full article in today's post, mentioning other factors that go into the taste of the steak. Read the article, and you'll find even Luger is coy as to both its aging and cooking methods. Then there are the issues of cooking temperature, charred vs uncharred, sliced vs served whole, on vs off-the bone, and so forth—all of which are endlessly debated.

Obviously, all things being equal, I would prefer USDA prime dry-aged steaks. But all things aren't equal.

One thing that I "DO" know is that not anyone who is involved with all the imitators has any knowledge of what the principals of "Peter Luger's" actually do about their purchasing , aging or acquiring their Beef as it has always been a hands on need to know family expertise that puts everything together.

The front of the house employees and even the back of the house, Chef's or anyone else are aware of what their job requires and generally do it well. That only gives them some knowledge by association not the ability to copy effectively over the long run.

It's truly a hands on learning and doing experience requiring more money, time and effort then any of the newbies on the block have acquired.

Wolfgang's is a good example as it's founder has been implementable to "Peter Luger's" front of the house [floor dining room captain] with many years capable experience before starting Wolfgang's. Back of the house or actual Butchering experience "nil'.

In reality there are only a handful of professionals experienced in every aspect of managing or putting together a sustainable operation remaining in the business today comparable to a "Peter Luger".

What's even more interesting taking the technological advances into consideration available in 2005 with ability to put it together effectively it wouldn't be that difficult to operate a even better, more consistent Restaurant with more variety and more universally acceptable product to a larger customer base.

Irwin

[oakapple]

One thing that I "DO" know is that not anyone who is involved with all the imitators has any knowledge of what the principals of "Peter Luger's" actually do about their purchasing , aging or acquiring their Beef as it has always been a hands on need to know family expertise that puts everything together.

(snip)

Wolfgang's is a good example as it's founder has been implementable to "Peter Luger's" front of the house [floor dining room captain] with many years capable experience before starting Wolfgang's. Back of the house or actual Butchering experience "nil'.

I presume that Wolfgang associated himself with people who do have that experience. I have had two of my best steaks ever at Wolfgang's, and the place is such a success that they're opening another branch in TriBeCa. There are a lot of steakhouses in Manhattan, and there are plenty of alternatives if a restaurant fails to deliver. Several people whose judgment about steaks I respect, such as eGullet's Fat Guy, confirm that Wolfgang's is coming pretty damned close to Luger's. (The place also has a far more diverse menu, a more convenient location, a nicer atmosphere, and it takes credit cards.)

Ben & Jack's serves a "better" steak than the Palm in my estimation, regardless of that questionable review.  my preference.  frankly, i have better taste than that reviewer. 

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I wonder how many times you've been there? The Times reviewer found the place inconsistent. If you were there on one of their better nights, then your experience is not necessarily inconsistent with hers. But I suspect she ate there at least three times, and maybe four, before writing the review.

[9lives]

Last night's "dry aged, all natural" was good but inferior to the more heavily marbled prime I've cooked..wet or dry aged.

[jgould]

Last night's "dry aged, all natural" was good but inferior to the more heavily marbled prime I've cooked..wet or dry aged.

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natural what?

how cooked?

[9lives]

Last night's "dry aged, all natural" was good but inferior to the more heavily marbled prime I've cooked..wet or dry aged.

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natural what?

how cooked?

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"All natural" is another marketing label..not sure if it's USDA recognized..used by Whole Foods in this case....I posted about it above..I think it means the cattle was raised without certain chemicals or hormones. I have the 1 paqe but not handy.

Charred...rare/med rare over an open wood fire.

Again, I was not overwhelmed by this steak...and will not seek it out; though I would buy it if was the only option....but there's better out there

[jgould]

Last night's "dry aged, all natural" was good but inferior to the more heavily marbled prime I've cooked..wet or dry aged.

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natural what?

how cooked?

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"All natural" is another marketing label..not sure if it's USDA recognized..used by Whole Foods in this case....I posted about it above..I think it means the cattle was raised without certain chemicals or hormones. I have the 1 paqe but not handy.

Charred...rare/med rare over an open wood fire.

Again, I was not overwhelmed by this steak...and will not seek it out; though I would buy it if was the only option....but there's better out there

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i believe it has to be specifically labelled "USDA PRIME". the whole foods "natural" label sounds as if it has no taste.

cooking method sounds fantastic

[9lives]

I didn't say "no taste"..just that I've had better

USDA Prime/ Choice/Select are different than "all natural." I think the grades are a result of the "raising process." The "all natural" is a description of the process.

[Busboy]

I didn't say "no taste"..just that I've had better

USDA Prime/ Choice/Select are different than "all natural." I think the grades are a result of the "raising process." The "all natural" is a description of the process.

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"All natural" can mean many things. Legally, it means "A product containing no artificial ingredient or added color and is only minimally processed (a process which does not fundamentally alter the raw product) may be labeled natural. The label must explain the use of the term natural (such as - no added colorings or artificial ingredients; minimally processed.)" but practically it is often used by producers who want to point out that their beef isn't just mass-produced drek. This is not always true.

For example, a producer that is de facto organic but doesn't wish to pay for certification, or feed their cattle only (more expensive) organic feed, can call their beef "natural." Dedicated natural producers eschew growth hormones, but can administer antibiotics if the animal is actually sick -- no "sub-therapeutic," or preventive, antibiotics allowed. And their diet is all vegetarian, no animal byproducts.

On the other hand, most gorcery store beef is "natural" so unless there's a certifyer or the producer explains what they mean on the label, the term can be misleading.

[Pan]

[...]oddly, no one here ever brings up Del Frisco!!??

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There has been some discussion of Del Frisco. I think it's fair to characterize the appraisals as mixed and somewhat weighted toward the negative side, but look at the following threads, and post there if you have more thoughts about this establishment.

The Del Frisco thread.

Del Frisco vs Wolfgang vs Ben Benson's

[tommy]

Ben & Jack's serves a "better" steak than the Palm in my estimation, regardless of that questionable review.  my preference.  frankly, i have better taste than that reviewer. 

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I wonder how many times you've been there? The Times reviewer found the place inconsistent. If you were there on one of their better nights, then your experience is not necessarily inconsistent with hers. But I suspect she ate there at least three times, and maybe four, before writing the review.

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you wonder? would you like to know? quite possibly more than the reviewer. quite possibly less. i wouldn't make such a statement without having what i would consider a reasonable sampling and forming an informed opinion. would you?

Luger's and Wolfgang's are "inconsistent" as well vis-a-vis that minerally taste that i look for in a dry-aged steak. it's the nature of the beast in my opinion. one of the two steaks i had at wolfgang's earlier this week had little-to-no mineral notes.

regardless, Ben and Jack's serves a "better" steak than the Palm in my estimation. stylistically they're quite different. and my preference is the "Luger's-style".

Edited October 20, 2005 by tommy (log)