Favorite places to get the [definitive] New York hot dog

[Fat Guy]

The issue with Certified Angus Beef is that it's not necessarily different from beef bought on the open market, provided the beef bought on the open market conforms to certain standards of marbling, etc. The similarity in price indicates that the difference may be primarily in the branding, not in the beef. I don't think it's possible to answer the question "does the beef matter" by looking at the Certified Angus Beef brand, or by doing apples-and-oranges comparisons between dogs with different kinds of spicing. The test would really need to be performed with two beef samples of known quality difference, yet blended to exactly the same fat content and with the same spicing. I suppose this could be done at home. Can frankfurters be made without specialized industrial equipment?

[Pumpkin Lover]

While reading the Shake Shack thread, I noticed a few mentions of Papaya King. I've never been there--the only hot dog/papaya places I've been to have been Gray's and Chelsea Papaya. I love Gray's Papaya for sentimental reasons, but I'm curious as to why Papaya King was mentioned so much. What hot dog joints do you guys prefer and why? Do the hot dogs really differ from one place to another?

[BeefCheeks]

While reading the Shake Shack thread, I noticed a few mentions of Papaya King. I've never been there--the only hot dog/papaya places I've been to have been Gray's and Chelsea Papaya. I love Gray's Papaya for sentimental reasons, but I'm curious as to why Papaya King was mentioned so much. What hot dog joints do you guys prefer and why? Do the hot dogs really differ from one place to another?

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Gray's on 72nd and Amsterdam. Nice little SNAP from the pig snoots.

[Jason Perlow]

Papaya King predates Gray's Papaya by like 40 years (1932). Gray's (1972) is the interloper and many say to be only a shadow of Papaya King. Personally I don't find there to be a huge difference between the two although some say the Gray's papaya drink is not as good as PK's. They both use the same type of dogs, made by Marathon in NJ (Sabrett). Gray's has the distinction of being the cheapest or best value meal in Manhattan, because you can get two dogs and a papaya drink for like $2.50.

[popover]

Katz's Deli lower eastside, there is snap and a sort of crisper skin outside and the flavor I like better than Gray's.

[Jason Perlow]

Katz's Deli lower eastside, there is snap and a sort of crisper skin outside and the flavor I like better than Gray's.

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They are good dogs, but its pointless to eat anything else there other than Pastrami and their kasha knishes. You don't schlep down to the LES for hot dogs. The dogs are there basically if you drag a kid with you and they don't want Pastrami.

Now if you are going to go on an adventure for hot dogs.. may I suggest the original Nathan's on Coney Island.

[Holly Moore]

Gray's focus is on cheap. Papaya King's focus is on quality. At New York City papaya/hot dog places you truly get what you pay for. Gray's serves a fine, cheap hot dog. Papaya King serves a far better prepared dog, complete with snap, a freshly toasted bun and a presentation that makes a Gray's dog pale in comparison. Same goes for the papaya drinks. Papaya King's has better flavor, tastes fresher, frothier and cooler.

Edited October 8, 2005 by Holly Moore (log)

[BeefCheeks]

Katz's Deli lower eastside, there is snap and a sort of crisper skin outside and the flavor I like better than Gray's.

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They are good dogs, but its pointless to eat anything else there other than Pastrami and their kasha knishes. You don't schlep down to the LES for hot dogs. The dogs are there basically if you drag a kid with you and they don't want Pastrami.

Now if you are going to go on an adventure for hot dogs.. may I suggest the original Nathan's on Coney Island.

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True enough. Although their dogs are nearly as good as the ones from Pastrami King near Union Tpke, which outclass most other kosher dogs by miles. Nice, beefy flavor, which most people aren't necessarily looking for (and won't get) at a place like Gray's.

[Jason Perlow]

Ah, Pastrami King in New Hyde Park? A frequent haunt during my formative years in Great Neck. Yes, very good dogs.

[smgarsh]

I've always favored Papaya King (86th st) over Gray's, Katz's or Papaya Dog.

For some reason the Hot Dogs @ Papaya King (86th St) taste better. I didn't really like the PK on 14th though.

[John]

Papaya King and Gray's use 10 to a lb Sabrett dogs. Katz's use a slightly larger size. All are cooked on a griddle. Although it's been awhile since I've been to any of them, I do recall liking Papaya King better even though they are similar in taste since they are the same dog. I think that they are better prepared as far as the time spent on the griddle. And I've read somewhere that Papaya King is one of the 10% of accounts that get their dogs refrigerated and not frozen. Maybe this makes a difference.

Does anyone know what brand dog is served at Pastrami King? My guess would be Empire National if it's a kosher dog. I like this brand better than Hebrew National. It's served at Second Ave. Deli, Ben's Best, and Tabatchnik's in Jersey.

[weinoo]

There are a couple of new hot dog places on the lower east side. One is on Broome, between Essex and Orchard (I think this is correct, it's right next to the new bakery called Babycakes) and the other is on Delancey and Clinton (ne corner) called, Clinton Papaya. Has anyone been to either?

There's also a cart that sets up on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights at the corner of Ludlow and Stanton - great dogs topped with kimchee and other assorted goodies.

[Jason Perlow]

While not a "hot dog" place, has anyone been to Mandler's yet? They are supposed to have some pretty kick-ass european style sausages there. The bratwurst on the onion roll is supposed to be the best in the city right now.

[Fat Guy]

Two frankfurters and a medium-sized papaya drink will cost you approximately twice as much at Papaya King as at Gray's. The frankfurters themselves are the same, so all differences are attributable to other factors including plain old psychology. There seems to be a deep need to differentiate among the city's frankfurter joints, even the ones that serve the same frankfurters. John has been explaining for years that most of the top places (especially Gray's, Papaya King and Katz's) source from Marathon/Sabrett. Ed Levine recently wrote about it in the New York Times as well. This need-for-differentiation phenomenon is common in Chicago as well, where so many places use Vienna Beef frankfurters.

There is in my experience no clear generalization that Papaya King prepares its frankfurters better than Gray's. On any given day, you might get a frankfurter at one or the other that spent more or less time on the griddle. And it is worth noting, for those who feel longer griddling produces superior results, that at Gray's you can specify "well done" whereas at Papaya King they ignore such requests, seemingly as a matter of policy. So if you're at Gray's and you happen to be laboring under the impression that Papaya King has better frankfurters because they're crispier, for crying out loud just ask for your frankfurters crispier. You can get them as crisp as you like, and they'll cost half as much.

The buns at both places seem to me to be either identical or of equivalent quality. Both places toast the buns, or rather they let them sit off to the side on the griddle in order to absorb some heat. The extent to which your bun is toasted is pretty much luck of the draw, in my experience.

I'm not sure there's a significant difference in condiments either. Maybe the onions, which I don't get, are slightly less awful at Papaya King. The sauerkraut seems the same. The mustard seems to be similar, if not identical.

The only major difference I've noticed consistently over the years (as opposed to having the occasional better or worse experience at one place or another) is that the Papaya King papaya drink is categorically superior to the one served at Gray's. By categorically superior I mean that the Gray's drink is bad and the Papaya King drink is good.

My understanding is that Mr. Gray is a former employee of Papaya King.

[Daniel]

I agree with you about Gray's drink... I have been there maybe 4 times in the last year.. The last time I went I just bought a Papaya drink... While waiting at the light outside, I took a couple of sips and threw it in the trash.. I was surprised at how bad it was.. Especially, when you have no dog to wash down and concentrate on..

[bergerka]

Crif. Where the hell else can you get a crispy fried hot dog wrapped in bacon with a fried egg on top? THAT, my friends, is the breakfast of champions, and if it weren't so far away from my living room I'd go have one right this second.

K

[Fat Guy]

I would definitely recommend spending the extra couple of dollars, at either place, to get a fresh-squeezed fruit juice. My standard order is half orange juice half grapefruit juice. I realize the papaya drink is a particular New York tradition, but my drink is a lot better.

[Holly Moore]

Granted the dogs are from the same source. Buns might be too. My experience with Grays - maybe a half dozen visits - not many by native New Yorker standards: the grilled dogs from Gray's are not as glistening, don't have the snap. The buns are not toasted enough to caramelize. The finished product is just thrown together. Papaya King, just the opposite. A consistently excellent dog.

[R Washburn]

Granted the dogs are from the same source.  Buns might be too.  My experience with Grays - maybe a half dozen visits and not much by native New Yorker standards: the grilled dogs from Gray's are not as glistening, don't have the snap.  The buns are not toasted enough to caramelize.  The finished product is just thrown together.  Papaya King, just the opposite.  A consistently excellent dog.

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The only Papaya King location i have visited is the one on 125th st., and I thought it was inferior to Gray's(72nd st.) or Papaya Dog (175th st.). I ended up tossing out my papaya drink after a few sips.

Holly,

Which Papaya King do you recommend?

[Holly Moore]

I've only been to the Papaya King on E. 86th and 3rd.

[Pumpkin Lover]

bergeka, I was going to say: I forgot to mention Crif Dogs in my first post, but again for sentimental reasons Crif Dogs is my fav of the non-papaya places. Those chili dogs, mmmm. And it's good to know that I can get a Gray's Papaya dog well-done.

I'm getting confused as to the locations of all these places, so I'm gonna list 'em here for reference:

Papaya King:

14th and 7th

86th and 3rd

125th btw. 7th and Lenox

Gray's Papaya:

8th and 6th

72nd and Amsterdam

Any other locations?

Crif Dogs

St. Marks btw. 1st and A

[Jason Perlow]

I would definitely recommend spending the extra couple of dollars, at either place, to get a fresh-squeezed fruit juice. My standard order is half orange juice half grapefruit juice. I realize the papaya drink is a particular New York tradition, but my drink is a lot better.

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You arrogant bastard!

[Pan]

[...]I'm getting confused as to the locations of all these places, so I'm gonna list 'em here for reference:

Papaya King:

14th and 7th

86th and 3rd

125th btw. 7th and Lenox

Gray's Papaya:

8th and 6th

72nd and Amsterdam

Any other locations?

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There's a -- I think it's a Papaya King -- at 8th St. and 6th Av.

[Fat Guy]

The place on Sixth Avenue at Eighth Street is Gray's Papaya.

For whatever reason, Gray's seems not to suffer from duplication as much as Papaya King. The original Papaya King on 86th and Third is consistently accurate in its frankfurter cookery; the 125th Street branch is a train wreck (I haven't been to the 14th Street location -- I'm so out of it I didn't realize it had actually opened). The 72nd Street and Eighth Street Gray's Papaya stores, however, seem to be roughly equivalent to one another.

[M.X.Hassett]

"or Papaya Dog (175th st.)" Worst of all the papya places, it was very late and I was starving yet I could not eat more then a bite or two of that horrible dog.

For the papaya places the best imho is the original Papaya King 86 and 3rd, for a great non papaya dog I would agree with Bergerka on Crif.

Jason, Mandlers sounds really good, sausage and fondue I will have to check it out.

Steve, Grays was started by a former employee of Papya King, I though it was covered in the hot dog doc. you were in on PBS.

Edited October 9, 2005 by M.X.Hassett (log)