Trois Etoiles A Paris...

[robert brown]

Carlsbad, I didn't see any Americans to speak of this summer except in Venice. It doesn't change the fact that Taillevent is known to be a hand-holding restaurant, as is the French Laundry. It is not chef-owned and has never had a top-echelon chef. People go there because Vrignat speaks fluent English and keeps one of the best wine cellars in the world. It's easy to see why he is Danny Meyer's biggest influence since he runs his restaurant impeccably. This hardly precludes the possibility of having a grand old time, but I don't think it will offer the kind of meal that will do much for ulterior epicure's curiosity and wanting to experience a great-chef meal.

I have been a couple of times to the Monaco Table de Joel Robuchon. It is a sit-at-a-table version of the Atelier: same cooks and waiters I saw in Paris and who came down from Paris for the opening. Same dishes, just about, as well.

[ulterior epicure]

re: table de j.r. .......and????

Carlsbad, I didn't see any Americans to speak of this summer except in Venice. It doesn't change the fact that Taillevent is known to be a hand-holding restaurant, as is the French Laundry. It is not chef-owned and has never had a top-echelon chef. People go there because Vrignat speaks fluent English and keeps one of the best wine cellars in the world. It's easy to see why he is Danny Meyer's biggest influence since he runs his restaurant impeccably. This hardly precludes the possibility of having a grand old time, but I don't think it will offer the kind of meal that will do much for ulterior epicure's curiosity and wanting to experience a great-chef meal.

I have been a couple of times to the Monaco Table de Joel Robuchon. It is a sit-at-a-table version of the Atelier: same cooks and waiters I saw in Paris and who came down from Paris for the opening. Same dishes, just about, as well.

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[Carlsbad]

Carlsbad, I didn't see any Americans to speak of this summer except in Venice. It doesn't change the fact that Taillevent is known to be a hand-holding restaurant, as is the French Laundry. It is not chef-owned and has never had a top-echelon chef. People go there because Vrignat speaks fluent English and keeps one of the best wine cellars in the world. It's easy to see why he is Danny Meyer's biggest influence since he runs his restaurant impeccably. This hardly precludes the possibility of having a grand old time, but I don't think it will offer the kind of meal that will do much for ulterior epicure's curiosity and wanting to experience a great-chef meal.

I have been a couple of times to the Monaco Table de Joel Robuchon. It is a sit-at-a-table version of the Atelier: same cooks and waiters I saw in Paris and who came down from Paris for the opening. Same dishes, just about, as well.

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Since we were in Paris during the end of a fairly popular bike race, there were Americans everywhere- just not at Taillevent.

Comparing Taillevent to the French Laundry is curious, since they are so totally different in just about every way.

I think M. Vrinat would plead guilty to hand-holding. Some call it service, which is as good as it gets, in my opinion. Under Soliveres, the food, like the surroundings, has been modernized just enough. You were correct about the wine list. It also happens to be a bargain.

If Mr. Epicure wants to spend $500 per person on dinner of exquisite vegetables, Arpege might fill the bill, but in my opinion it would not be a good choice for a first three star experience, especially for someone who has any budgetary concerns. Ditto Ledoyen, but for totally different reasons. In addition to Taillevent, Le Bristol and Le Meurice would be better choices for a first luxury experience, IMHO.

[robert brown]

I think I wrote about the commonality of the French Laundry and Taillevent. Although markedly different in many ways, they both appeal and are geared to, people who don't want to feel they are out of their element. There's hardly anything not noble about that. Per Se is, of course another. As far as my preferences go, I don't need a maitre d'hotel spieling off about the justification for the nine-course tasting menu and otherwise treating me like I've never had an ambitious restaurant visit in my life.

Arpege is not a vegetarian retaurant, although you can order all vegetable dishes if you want. Passard's best-known dish is the homard au vin jaune. You will find poultry dishes there as well. I have had three magnificent meals there in the last 2-1/2 years. It is very expensive and very generous at the same time.

[Carlsbad]

Not wanting to prolong this, let me just say that the maitre d'hotel made no such spiel to us at Taillevent. (You might get one at the French Laundry, but that is for another time and place.) The service couldn't have been more professional, respectful and accomodating.

[robert brown]

I meant to talk about the maitre d'hotel at Per Se, assuming that everyone would know that the 9-course tasting menu is a Keller offering. That sure was presumptuous of me.

[Carlsbad]

I surrender.

[robert brown]

No, it's my fault. I wrote something and didn't go over it before I posted it. I thoght I was making it clear that it was Per Se all the way through.

[MobyP]

re: table de j.r.      .......and????

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Forget Robuchon for now. Or save him for your 10th meal so you'll have some perspective.

I meant before that I still thinik you should go for the best single meal imaginable. Eating is an act of release, of communion, of true indulgence, of many things depending on who you are why you happen to be seated at the table. Why would you want 2/3'rds of a release, or 3/4's of an indulgence, or half a communion? You should strive for the best imaginable, and save the multiple bargain lunches for when you need a reminder.

[docsconz]

Debate between tasting menus vs. ala carte is an old one. If I am ata restaurant that is new to me or I am unlikely to teturn to for a period of time due to location, tasting menus have served me well by showing me much more of the breadth of a chef's cooking. If I am at a restaurant at which I am a regular, a la carte makes more sense to me. I am familiar with a chef's work and can therrefore focus on what works best for me because I already have an idea of it That is not the case at a new restaurant even if I have read extensively about it. I would suggest going with a style that you are comfortable with.

[pirate]

This is an interesting thread. And all the advice proffered has its rationale. Digesting it all, I thought about what I would do. I would go "all in" in the parlance of TV Poker and aim for one great meal to treasure; one meal against which all others would be measured. That requires coordination with the Maitre D'Hotel and the Chef in advance, not just a reservation and choosing from the menu when you arrive.

[pierre45]

Debate between tasting menus vs. ala carte is an old one. If I am ata restaurant that is new to me or I am unlikely to teturn to for a period of time due to location, tasting menus have served me well by showing me much more of the breadth of a chef's cooking. If I am at a restaurant at which I am a regular, a la carte makes more sense to me. I am familiar with a chef's work and can therrefore focus on what works best for me because I already have an idea of it That is not the case at a new restaurant even if I have read extensively about it. I would suggest going with a style that you are comfortable with.

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Excellent advice,except in my case i find that a la carte works better for me specially in worthy restaurants.The key as you said is knowing what the chef does best.I am lucky that often i end up with excellent choices.

[docsconz]

This is an interesting thread. And all the advice proffered has its rationale. Digesting it all, I thought about what I would do. I would go "all in" in the parlance of TV Poker and aim for one great meal to treasure; one meal against which all others would be measured. That requires coordination with the Maitre D'Hotel and the Chef in advance, not just a reservation and choosing from the menu when you arrive.

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Interesting thought. You could select a few top restaurants and call them to see how receptive they would be to working with you on this. you could then select the one (or more if you wish) that is most enthusiastic or most excites you. I would be very curious to read the results. I wish I had thought of that last time I was in Paris!

[robert brown]

I am sorry for getting distracted and taking my eye of the ball in terms of helping our man have the meal of a lifetime. I'm not fsmiliar with the cost of a meal at L'Ambroisie. I recall that many years ago it was the most expensive three-star in Paris. Now it doesn't seem to be. While I haven't been, every indication is that this is the one. You should also know that it is impossible to get a reservation for dinner, but not for lunch.

[MobyP]

My last meal, which had a very generous quantity of black truffles involved, came out at 584 Euros for 2, not including wine. This might not be a completely accurate representation of the value of the meal, however, as Pacaud was being a remarkable host.

[Jonathan Day]

If I recall correctly, a dinner at Ledoyen cost us EUR 500 for 2; lunch at L'Ambroisie was EUR 750 for 2. Both included wine; in both cases, the wines were of roughly the same price. Of course, depending on the quantity and price of the wines you chose, you could go much higher.

Nonetheless, L'Ambroisie didn't seem expensive given what it delivered. I think Robert put it well: the place was expensive, yet generous at the same time.

[ulterior epicure]

... so... I'm back. I'm exhausted and promise to post more (in depth) later. The upshot of my visit:

Le Cinq: EXTREMELY disappointing. RUDE service. POOR VALUE for the price.

Carre des Feuillants: EXCELLENT food. Good value. Cold, but efficient service.

More later.

U.E.

[MobyP]

Why did you choose Le Cinq?

Edited October 30, 2005 by MobyP (log)

[robert brown]

Ah yes, the vagaries of eating in France.

[vinobiondo]

This is an interesting thread. And all the advice proffered has its rationale. Digesting it all, I thought about what I would do. I would go "all in" in the parlance of TV Poker and aim for one great meal to treasure; one meal against which all others would be measured. That requires coordination with the Maitre D'Hotel and the Chef in advance, not just a reservation and choosing from the menu when you arrive.

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I think this a great idea, too. For this particular adventure, I have to believe Guy Savoy would be the call. It is shockingly expensive, but the food is as good as any of them and the level of PERSONALIZED service is in a class by itself. Everyone's complaint about Guy Savoy seems to be the cost (which is borderline heart-stopping), but I sense that people (myself included) tend to leave the restaurant feeling that it was darn near worth it for such extravagant attention (both on the plate and off). I also think that if you rang up Hubert (their maitre d' sans pareil) and explained what you sought to do, he would absolutely make it happen (unless he has yet to be paroled from the Las Vegas opening). It would cost you a SH**-TON of cash, but for a no-limit blow-out, I think this is the place.

[vinobiondo]

Debate between tasting menus vs. ala carte is an old one. If I am ata restaurant that is new to me or I am unlikely to teturn to for a period of time due to location, tasting menus have served me well by showing me much more of the breadth of a chef's cooking. If I am at a restaurant at which I am a regular, a la carte makes more sense to me.

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For me, it's a France vs. not France thing. At multi-starred French places, it has WITHOUT FAIL been the case, in my experience, that the tasting menu seems like an absolute bargain compared to the a la carte offerings. Not atypically, it's something on the order of a 140 Euro 7-course tasting menu vs. 48 Euro starters and 75 Euro main courses. I understand that part of this is because there tend to be many "unexpected extras" with either format, but I think that a lot of these restos redundantly "price in" the add-ons with both the starters and the mains (i.e. your 30 Euros worth of "goodies" is added on to the price of both your starter and your main plat) but don't meaningfully cut down on the portion sizes for tasting menu servings. For some reason, this tends (or, more preceisely, has tended to be for me) the case only in France -- it has not been so in Italy or Spain (the two other European countries in which I have dined extensively enough to have a thoughtful opinion), which are much more similar to the US pricing rubric when it comes to tasting menus. I don't think I've ever seriously considered ordering a la carte in a multi-starred French establishment -- both because I have been interested in seeing what the chefs could do and because it has always seemed to be quite obviously the better deal.

[degusto]

Debate between tasting menus vs. ala carte is an old one. If I am ata restaurant that is new to me or I am unlikely to teturn to for a period of time due to location, tasting menus have served me well by showing me much more of the breadth of a chef's cooking. If I am at a restaurant at which I am a regular, a la carte makes more sense to me.

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For me, it's a France vs. not France thing. At multi-starred French places, it has WITHOUT FAIL been the case, in my experience, that the tasting menu seems like an absolute bargain compared to the a la carte offerings. Not atypically, it's something on the order of a 140 Euro 7-course tasting menu vs. 48 Euro starters and 75 Euro main courses. I understand that part of this is because there tend to be many "unexpected extras" with either format, but I think that a lot of these restos redundantly "price in" the add-ons with both the starters and the mains (i.e. your 30 Euros worth of "goodies" is added on to the price of both your starter and your main plat) but don't meaningfully cut down on the portion sizes for tasting menu servings. For some reason, this tends (or, more preceisely, has tended to be for me) the case only in France -- it has not been so in Italy or Spain (the two other European countries in which I have dined extensively enough to have a thoughtful opinion), which are much more similar to the US pricing rubric when it comes to tasting menus. I don't think I've ever seriously considered ordering a la carte in a multi-starred French establishment -- both because I have been interested in seeing what the chefs could do and because it has always seemed to be quite obviously the better deal.

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There is a difference in portion sizes. At French 3-stars, a 7-course menu will serve approximately the same amount of food as a three-course menu. There are some exceptions of course. Some dishes ordered a la carte menu might be small but expensive if they are based on luxury ingredients. Whether you go to Troisgros, Michel Bras, Le LouisXV, Michel Guerard, Regis Marcon, Pierre Gagnaire e t c a degustation menu will not from a food quantity point of view be a bargain compared to ordering a la carte. I cannot think of a single multi-starred restaurant where there would not be a portion size cutback equivalent to the larger number of dishes.

Robert’s points, as far as I have understood them and most of them I agree with, is that with smaller portion sizes you miss some of the most exceptional eating experiences such as eating a whole roasted duck for two, eating a whole roasted pigeon (tasting menus will serve you only half a pigeon), eating fish cooked on the bone e t c. Not that I entirely agree that fish or meat cooked on the bone is necessarily always the best way to prepare fish or meat, but that is another matter. The other reason to Robert’s degustation menu allergy is that you tend to eat less well from another point of view, namely much of the food on the degustation menus and the now so popular freebies have been prepared in advance or the degustation menu courses are just mechanically being put together in an efficient assembly line for 60% of the guests who are under the perception they are having a bargain meal, with the result of less than stellar food. This is no doubt a problem at many of the multi-starred restaurants.

[vinobiondo]

"There is a difference in portion sizes. At French 3-stars, a 7-course menu will serve approximately the same amount of food as a three-course menu. There are some exceptions of course. Some dishes ordered a la carte menu might be small but expensive if they are based on luxury ingredients. Whether you go to Troisgros, Michel Bras, Le LouisXV, Michel Guerard, Regis Marcon, Pierre Gagnaire e t c a degustation menu will not from a food quantity point of view be a bargain compared to ordering a la carte. I cannot think of a single multi-starred restaurant where there would not be a portion size cutback equivalent to the larger number of dishes. "

Well, I can't disagree based on experience (as I said, I've never not had the tasting menu), but I shudder to think of what the "full portions" must have been like at the conspicuously gut-busting Pre Catalan, decidedly over-filling Le Cordeillan Bages, mildly overwhelming Le Meurice and certainly north-of-enough Guy Savoy if I was merely getting the undersized makeweights, which were elephantine compared to the individual courses on my Charlie Trotter/Thomas Keller visits. I have absolutely no reason to doubt that you are correct, but I'm sort of laughing at the widespread notions that French food is too tiny and "precious" and that Americans are so comparably fat because our restaurants serve enormous portions. As far as the top levels are concerned, I have had just the opposite experience re: portion size -- all these places were an avalanche of food (and, in defense of my original point, I had the tasting menu at each of them).

Thanks for your insight. I'm just sort of ..... flummoxed.

[vinobiondo]

By way of example, this Spring's first course at the devastatingly fantastic Pre Catalan was Tempura Langoustines ... but only six of them per person.

Edited October 31, 2005 by vinobiondo (log)

[ulterior epicure]

moby p...

because i was stupid and forgot your earlier comment on the "delphic" criticism... ahhh, 120 euros down the tube - with horrible service and horribly pedestrian food. le cinq has to be one of the worst experiences i've EVER had... more later... promise to post.

u.e.