Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

creative or just silly?


confiseur

Recommended Posts

.........Chef Benito Vicens at Restaurant Bens D'Avall in Majorca (Spanish Island in the Med.)is serving on his dessert menu: a cold sobrasada( a local sausage) with caramelized apricots ,honey and a basil cream.

The camp here in the old world is divided......the ,conservative stick-in-the-muds old school think this is invention taken to absurdity.....the hipster,trendy avant-garde pastry guys think this is way-to-go creativity right up there with with Heston Blumenthals (3 star michelin chef in the UK) Bacon and egg ice cream,snail porridge,trout with blackcurrant mousse etc etc.

I personally think the dish would be vastly improved by serving the sausage as a starter........no doubt there are many of you who will disagree. Opinions please...........

:wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm far from a stick in the mud, but I just can't cozy up to the idea of animal flesh in a dessert. Ice creams, sorbets and gels in a savory course are great, on the other hand. I feel like if its the smokey flavor you're after, there are other ways to achieve it than with pork. Maybe a bean or date "sausage" would be something that captured the desired texture and smoke without porking up the dessert. Blergh.

Edited by Sethro (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've yet to have served a meat in my dessert course. I've yet to taste similar done well.

I might except it if it was served at the right time of day with the right meal before it. For example I might eat that after a light egg breakfast. But I wouldn't like it at night or on a full stomach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It may or may not be good as a dessert. Iwould have to try it to determine for myself. Although animal flesh in a dessert is not intuitive, that doesn't mean it can't or doesn't "work". I have experienced enjoyable desserts built around bacon and scallops. While not mecessarily my favorite desserts, they were fun and appropriate in the context in which they were served.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

Twitter - @docsconz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, I don't claim to have much knowledge regarding the history of food and cuisine. I wonder who came up with eating foods in a certain order, with the sweet item usually being last? And who decided that you don't eat meat for dessert? I'm pretty darn sure cave men just ate what was there at the time it was there....they probably feasted on berries that Bertha brought, then, having enough energy to go hunting, brought home some meat. After the hunt, being really hungry, they probably ate more berries WITH the meat. Bertha, suffering PMS, insisted that they eat the meat first, then the berries, and well, that was the end of Bertha. :laugh:

The moral to this story is, that the joy of food (and art, for that matter) follows the basic idea that: there ARE no rules! If ya wanna serve meat for dessert then, go for it. You could probably call it "nouvelle" or "cutting edge" but I think it's just reverting back to the age 'o Bertha. You know, how what is old is new again.

But here we are, most of us inwardly conditioned and programmed to eating our food in a certain order....myself included. I like dessert at the end of my meal.....not sure exactly why that is when I really think about it. Habit, I guess. I remember being punished at my nursery school for eating the candy bar I had in my lunch before I had my peanut butter sandwich. The teacher took the rest of my lunch away. True story.

This "food order" is ingrained into our society. Whenever someone attempts to mess with something so omnipresent, it's like swimming upstream. You have a lot of energy to begin with, but when no one goes for it, you give up. I don't think we'll see much of a trend regarding meat for dessert, and if we do, it'll fade fast I'm sure. In my experience I know most people won't go for it.

Hey, I love to dip my breakfast sausage in maple syrup, but I still don't want it for dessert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps not for dessert, but the combination of honey with sobrasada is not that unconventional in Spain.

Regarding Mr. Blumenthal's creations, let me quote his Good Food Guide, which I recommend everybody to read:

Described as crab ice cream, this dish presented a barrier to the diner. Let’s face it; ice cream has to be sweet doesn’t it? Well, no, it doesn’t and indeed didn’t used to be. Savoury ices were popular in Victorian times but have long since fallen out of fashion. The same ice cream however, described as frozen crab bisque, presented no barrier, as the term ice cream had been removed

PedroEspinosa (aka pedro)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe we should start a Meat for Dessert thread, and come up with some recipes. Althouh my initial reaction is "Oh, please, no!" I do love what we call in the PNW "salmon candy" or sometimes, in a non-PC manner, "squaw candy," It's little salmon bits so deliciously sweet that they really could be dessert, and I don't know anyone who can resist them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Still, to me, little salmon bites that are so sweet as to almost be dessert...aren't dessert. Like someone else mentioned about liking sausage with syrup, a sweet savory course/component is totally welcome.

I promise you that I hold to that claim not based on any rule or societal prefect, but on my own personal taste. I wouldn't condemn anyone for serving a dessert with meat components...hell, my favorite pastry chef does just that. It just won't ever sit well with me, personally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to quote individual responses here, as I'm replying to several different things upthread.

First, the concept of 'sweet dishes coming last' is not actually a concept in many parts of the world.

Three examples.

In Chinese formal banquets, a sweet dish is usually served in between the other savory courses. The savoury courses are not served with rice, and it is the rice that is served last.

In Chinese home cooking, soup is the last course served. (I've had the reason for this explained to me as follows: while eating the rest of the meal, you can simmer soup ingredients that arose out of the food preparation for the other dishes - fish heads for example - and it'll be ready by the time you've finished eating everything else).

The appearance of a sorbet to refresh the palate in Western dining is also a case of a sweet dish appearing between savory ones, and one which - because people are more accustomed to it? - is not thought of as odd.

Hungarians sweet cherry soup is eaten at the beginning of the meal.

Secondly, the idea of sweet dishes containing animal flesh is not nouvelle cuisine, but might better be thought of as a link to ancienne cuisine. Present day blancmange, for example, evolved from a sweet dish that contained rice, chicken (or sometimes fish), almonds, and sugar.

There is a scrumptious-sounding Turkish dessert made with chicken tavuk gogsu, (maybe Abra can use this one as a starting point for her list :smile: . It's not the best recipe for it that I've come across, but the only link in English I could find). There are also Indian milk-based desserts that contain meat. One I know of contains chicken, the other minced lamb.

Thirdly, the combination of sobresada with a basil icecream (in addition to the other ingredients) sound rather like taking an existing idea (eating the sobresada with honey), and taking it just a little bit further. I don't see this as any more silly than the tomato icecream (no, not sorbet) flavored with basil and oregano which I ate in Nice one time.

Fourthly, how about if it were not called a 'dessert', but were instead listed in the main courses. Would people still be put off by the flavor and ingredient combination?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. . . . .

Fourthly, how about if it were not called a 'dessert', but were instead listed in the main courses. Would people still be put off by the flavor and ingredient combination?

In Spain, I don't think so.

PedroEspinosa (aka pedro)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It may or may not be good as a dessert. Iwould have to try it to determine for myself.

I'm with Doc on this one. The proof is in the pudding. And I don't think that conforming to accepted pairings and sequence is necessary. I like to have my senses tantalised and I don't think that this makes the food that seeks to do this any more frivolous than classic cuisine, which I also adore. To me, it's not a question of emperor's clothes V traditional crown and gown. I love all good food, and as long as I'm not presented with the culinary equivalent of a blank canvas, I'm happy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It all comes down to having an open mind as a diner, having trust in your chef, and having the ability to tell when something "tastes good." Most diners don't possess all three.

they were fun and appropriate in the context in which they were served.

Good comment, Doc. And anzu, thanks for that mention of tavuk gogsu--the more reading anyone does, the deeper you dig, I think you'll find that much of what can be perceived as nouvelle cuisine or avant-garde in any given time period has culinary historical precedents. I helped open a modern Greek and Turkish-influenced restaurant a few years ago with Jose Andres, and I remember when he came back from spending a few weeks travelling the region--the "dessert" he talked about most when he returned was this ground chicken dish. We could never do it in the restaurant, and though we did push a lot of barriers and my desserts there were not traditional at all--something very "traditional" like this and authentic (though I hate that word) was way too avant-garde. As Doc said, appropriate in the context.

Everyone should realize, though, that bacon and egg ice cream had been done as a dessert concept not by one chef, but two chefs, way before most people had ever heard of Heston Blumenthal: the Adrias of course did it and Thomas Keller/Stephen Durfee also did it at the French Laundry. My guess was each version was impeccably appropriate in their contexts.

Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any kind of smoky flavours would probably turn me on in a dessert, PROVIDING the texture was right.

I'm not sure if something mushy in the savory part would hit the 'ole tummy right.

Crispy, smoky, even nicely thick and juicy, as in sausage would be good, more then likely.

I've got to go now but will come back and absorb this more.

Thanks for the thread, most interesting!

2317/5000

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That tavuk gogsu is definitely not like anything I've ever eaten. I wonder whether there's actually any chicken flavor left after all that cooking, or whether it's used mainly as a fibrous structure for the pudding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thirdly, the combination of sobresada with a basil icecream (in addition to the other ingredients) sound rather like taking an existing idea (eating the sobresada with honey), and taking it just a little bit further. I don't see this as any more silly than the tomato icecream (no, not sorbet) flavored with basil and oregano which I ate in Nice one time.

Well, the tomato ice cream contains no animal flesh, so its sort of not up for comparison. Besides, its pretty common knowledge by now that tomato and basil (especially basil!) are great frozen component ingredients.

That aside, I would have no problem with the sobresada and basil ice cream either, but to me that is a definete savory course. I welcome frozen components, or any sweet components in savory courses. I think when used well its a brilliant idea.

Fourthly, how about if it were not called a 'dessert', but were instead listed in the main courses. Would people still be put off by the flavor and ingredient combination?

Not I! All of this reminds me of a time when a very finickey exec chef asked if I could make a corn sorbet to accompany a chilled corn soup. The premise was that he'd done a chilled tomato soup in the past and his pastry chef then had provided a savory tomato sorbet that was perfect. The catch was...it has to be completely savory. The only sweetness would be coming from the corn. So after much trial and error I finally found a way to produce a sorbet with no sugar, invert sugar or even glucose that didn't freeze like a popsicle.

The irony is though, the first batch I made, which was sweet due to the inclusion of glucose, tasted by far the best with the soup. But it was a sweet frozen component in a savory course, and the chef wasn't prepared to accept that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well - my question is Did you actually have this dessert? How was it? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Would you have it again? Were other peole getting it? Did they like it? Is it possible to love it?

What would you neeed to change to enjoy it?

My thought is - it sounds strange and if I saw it explained on a menu I probably would not be that interested in it - but then again - I think about how I actually like to eat and I don't have the slightest hesitation mixing things up: For instance;

interspering bites of hot dog with mustard with bites of vanilla ice cream cone.

Here I realize that I am basically having a course or a meal that is not dissimilar to the one you describe.

I like Hawaiian punch and fried chicken

Peanut butter and fluff sandwiches with chicken soup

I like chocolate chip cookies and ham sandwiches

And - I bet most of us here love a good wine with dinner - that's mixing fruity, intense, lucious flavors with savory.

True - these are all really lame bad examples of horrible eating but the issue is true

So - I think that in my unmonitored eating habits I actually end up eating to interspere, mix, balance salty and sweet, hot, cold, all the classics.

After reading this thread this morning I thought to myself that we probably discipline ourselves as a society to put off for last the things that we like the most in a meal - the things that we would have the hardest time controlling ourselves with so that you contain your intake of decadence.

I think that people actually get way too tied up in what is savory vs. not. Where do you draw the line? and why?

Why would anyone feel that excluding sugar made something savory? If I put pepper in a dessert does it make it any less of a dessert?

Edited by chefette (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course I guess no one has addressed the creative or just silly question - which in and of itself is an interesting question. You can certainly be creative and silly, or creative, or silly but not creative. There is really no telling at all about this particular dessert you mention.

But by silly - you probably mean bad or silly stupid and not silly-fun or silly-amusing - right? So silly is a euphamism here. Sorry - I didn't catch that at first.

Did YOU find it creative? or Silly?

In what way? The plating? The concept? the flavors, testures?

My first thought is that it might be interesting, or immovative. It could still be silly.

It could be plain bad or unpleasant (which would not actually prevent it from being creative OR mean that it was silly)

Did it make sense in the context of the meal?

Was it out of place in the restaurant?

Was it a successful dish or at best an 'interesting' experiment?

Seems to me its all about context and execution. If it fits AND its well executed then you have a shot at something good. Because even bad food is creative - right? Nothing says that creativity is equal to well done or good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't help myself - I'm back - again!

Just a note to say that in my experience many many of the things that come of the so called 'creative' field are just bad - and they get smoothed over and glossed off by being called creative 0 therefore it is just an 'attempt. Not real - so you should not be held strictly accountable.

Then, on the other hand, most silly things seem to be delightful and good, and just gone too soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ll of this reminds me of a time when a very finickey exec chef asked if I could make a corn sorbet to accompany a chilled corn soup. The premise was that he'd done a chilled tomato soup in the past and his pastry chef then had provided a savory tomato sorbet that was perfect. The catch was...it has to be completely savory. The only sweetness would be coming from the corn. So after much trial and error I finally found a way to produce a sorbet with no sugar, invert sugar or even glucose that didn't freeze like a popsicle.

Could you tell us what you did?

I've played around with an amateurish way trying to make sorbets with no sugar, etc. and have never got textures I was happy with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry! I didn't notice your response and question till just now...

Basically I tried to incorporate as much salt as I could, and an undetectable amount of glucose. However, then I had a really salty sorbet with decent texture.

Eventually I thought about how stock can absorb a ton of salinity with become overly salty tasting, so I experimented with incorporating veg stock into the base.

I'd have to dig up the recipe, but in the end what I basically wound up doing was bringing the veg stock, stripped corn cobs and glucose to temp and then immersion blending in the fresh corn kernels(after removing the cobs, of course). I also had a bit of cream in there too.

From memory, I think it was:

3 cobs corn

2c veg stock

1/4c glucose

1c cream

2g stabilizer

But the sweeter version tasted far "cornier" than the final version, and I liked it much better myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blergh.

Fabulous word!!! Is it your own? May I klep it for later use?

And I DO echo it in this instance. :blink:

And with ALL the instances of it elucidated by descriptions of odd fusions and combinations, this board needs a grimace smiley.

GRIMMIS. Or, with your permission, the "blergh" emoticon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...