Uncooked chicken

[Grub]

I read an article about US special forces soldiers in Afghanistan who in order to blend in, had abandoned their uniforms with local garb, and their MRIs for local cuisine. And then they inadvertently offended their host when they asked for a piece of chicken to be cooked all the way through, seeing that the center was completely raw. Their host just didn't understand what the problem was. Obviously, these guys are used to eating raw or partially uncooked chicken all the time.

So I'm wondering, how dangerous is it really? Could it be that it's just your traditional, western food-hysteria at work here? Or could the (typcally factory-raised type of) chickens eaten in the west be more prone to being dangerous, compared to the ones eaten in less developed countries?

[jgarner53]

I imagine (though I am merely guessing here) that it is a combination of both western food hysteria, fostered by the makers of anti-bacterial products, toss-away cutting boards, and the like, and the nasty, disgusting, shit-filled, dangerous factory farming process that produces most of the chicken eaten in this country.

[TPO]

I heard a report on the radio a few years ago, sometime around the release of the book Fast Food Nation. The thing from that report that stuck with me was the fact that chicken in this country is soaked in a salt solution to artifically inflate its weight. Lots and lots and lots of commercial chicken are soaked together so any bacteria-free chicken will be exposed to bacteria in that solution. The person interviewed (I wish I could remember more, like who it was) said to just assume that all commercial chicken has salmonella or other bacteria, and cook it thoroughly.

So chicken from local markets or chicken you raised yourself probably is a heck of a lot safer than anything you are going to get with a national brand name attached to it.

Assuming that people in Afghanistan don't do things like us (such as standardizing the size of chickens so they can mechanically slaughter and process them), I would think the chicken there would be safer.

But still, I don't even like the texture of raw chicken when I am cutting it, so I am not sure I would enjoy eating it that way.

[peppyre]

There is also the fact that our delicate western immune systems aren't capable of fighting off bacteria that is found in other countries. If someone has spent their life eating partially cooked chicken, they will have built up their tolerance for whatever may be lurking in the raw meat. Whereas, our systems are inundated with anti-bacterial items every day and we very rarely come into contact with bacteria/germs.

[sizzleteeth]

It really comes down to freshness and lack of processing.

If you eat anything fresh enough, and if it is handled correctly, you can eat just about anything raw with only the risk of the parasites and/or pathogens it might be carrying.

In Japan at Imaiya Honten I was served chicken sashimi and chicken tataki (seared outside-raw inside) as part of sort of a "head-to-toe" progression of Yakitori.

They are one of the few restaurants to serve "Hinai Jidori" - a special breed of almost wild chicken from Hinai - the birds are "processed" by the cooks at the restaurant.

I have to say that one, it was delicious, and two - there were no adverse affects what-so-ever.

Edit:

Tataki of Hinai Jidori Chicken

Edited August 12, 2005 by sizzleteeth (log)

[jayt90]

I heard a report on the radio a few years ago, sometime around the release of the book Fast Food Nation.  The thing from that report that stuck with me was the fact that chicken in this country is soaked in a salt solution to artifically inflate its weight. Lots and lots and lots of commercial chicken are soaked together so any bacteria-free chicken will be exposed to bacteria in that solution. The person interviewed (I wish I could remember more, like who it was) said to just assume that all commercial chicken has salmonella or other bacteria, and cook it thoroughly.

←

I have often wondered why boneless skinless breast meat is so popular. When I buy it frozen, it always seems spongy and salty. Last week, I bought it fresh, and koshered it according to directions on the box of salt. I inadvertently left it overnight in the fridge, and guess what? Spongy and salty chicken. Not much chance of surface bacteria, but I felt that I ruined a fresh product.

The salt solution used to bloat commercial chickens (above) must be fairly light, or they would taste salty and have a spongy texture.

[tryska]

yeah the main reason you have to worry about chicken, or ground beef, etc in the US, is the factory processing our meats go through to get from feedlot to styrofoam package.

i imagine in Afghanistan they're butchering their chickens with some care.

[anzu]

Before I start, I know that India and Afghanistan are not the same, but there are a number of cultural similarities.

My parents-in-law in India don't care a toss about hygiene.

I have seen my MIL buy fresh fish, leave it out of the fridge for 8 hours in summer - the temperature was somewhere around 42C (not too good at conversion, but around 100F if not more) - then 'remember' the fish, put it in the fridge overnight, take it out of the fridge the next day, leave it around for another couple of hours, then cook it in a slow cooker (!) for another 3-4 hours, and then eat it with no ill-effects.

The two of them have been eating this way for years - their bodies can take an awful lot that I couldn't and that you couldn't either.

I can say for sure that my body can't take it because I had extremely bad food poisoning from her food a couple of times right when I was first living with them and before I realized the full extent of how she treats food.

Now, I would imagine a similar thing is happening with food in Afghanistan. Something a local could eat without problems is not something that YOU could eat without problems.

As far as the treatment of chicken flesh in Afghanistan is concerned:

If the conditions under which chickens are killed are similar to India (and it is my guess that the conditions would be similar, as these conditions tend to prevail in many less-developed nations), then there are two most common and likely scenarios. One is where the chicken is home-killed and then cooked quite soon after. It certainly is not going to be undergoing the type of treatment that occurs with American factory chickens.

In the other scenario, the chicken is sold already killed in the bazaar or at a butcher's shop. The chicken has probably been killed by the seller, or by someone else but close by. There will be no refrigeration, and the chicken and other meat will be surrounded by flies (before you get too grossed out about what people do in less developed countries, I will point out here that I saw meat being sold this way in Greece, as well, as recently as the late 70s. Furthermore, it is probably still more hygienic than giving the chicken carcasses a swim through fecal soup, as is done in the US). In this scenario, it would be my concern that the outside of the meat is well-cooked, the inside is less of a worry.

As to how the chickens were living prior to slaughter - running around freely and being fed scraps is by far the most likely.

Incidentally, it's also possible that it was not only the request to cook the chicken further that was causing confusion. Chicken in many places - Afghanistan included - is still a luxury item compared to other meats (they have less yield compared to a goat, for example). Serving it to a guest, therefore, is an act of extreme politeness. When the guest then turns around and requests that food to be served differently, well you can imagine that the two groups might easily be talking past one another rather than with another. You know, "I serve them my best dish, and they don't appreciate it?!"

After all, there are enough threads here in eGullet with people talking about where the host/guest relationship went wrong, and yet those are mostly situations where both sides were from the same cultural background.

So, to sum up. Chicken in Afghanistan could well be dangerous, but this is probably not the same type of danger as in the US. Less need to worry about salmonella, probably, as the chicken is not being raised or killed in similar conditions.

Freshness, fly-borne pathogens, etc. could be an issue though.

And, personally, I'd be wary about eating raw chicken, such as sashimi, anywhere. This includes Japan even though people are serving chicken sashimi. People get food poisoning in Japan, too.

Edited August 13, 2005 by anzu (log)

[BarbaraY]

I heard a report on the radio a few years ago, sometime around the release of the book Fast Food Nation.  The thing from that report that stuck with me was the fact that chicken in this country is soaked in a salt solution to artifically inflate its weight. Lots and lots and lots of commercial chicken are soaked together so any bacteria-free chicken will be exposed to bacteria in that solution. The person interviewed (I wish I could remember more, like who it was) said to just assume that all commercial chicken has salmonella or other bacteria, and cook it thoroughly.

←

I have often wondered why boneless skinless breast meat is so popular. When I buy it frozen, it always seems spongy and salty. Last week, I bought it fresh, and koshered it according to directions on the box of salt. I inadvertently left it overnight in the fridge, and guess what? Spongy and salty chicken. Not much chance of surface bacteria, but I felt that I ruined a fresh product.

The salt solution used to bloat commercial chickens (above) must be fairly light, or they would taste salty and have a spongy texture.

←

Like everything else, you have to read the label!

I learned some time ago to do so when I found the on-sale chicken breasts were down right nasty in taste and texture. It is right on the label, 18% salt solution added.

Almost every time chicken breast meat is on sale here it has the solution added.

[jayt90]

Like everything else, you have to read the label!

I learned some time ago to do so when I found the on-sale chicken breasts were down right nasty in taste and texture. It is right on the label, 18% salt solution added.

Almost every time chicken breast meat is on sale here it has the solution added.

←

The labels in my domain just say "seasoned chicken breast meat". I'm glad to know now that is an 18% salt solution.

I remember talking to a meat cutter who worked for low price market. He said his boss would order him to save fresh chicken parts that were at last day of sale, or already starting to smell, by dipping them in a mild bleach solution. It would gain them a few more days of sale, and the skins would appear to be very white!

The market is now out of business, but the practice may still go on.

[godito]

I can't remember which Art Culinaire it was, but one of the chefs prepared some chicken sashimi... I remember thinking it was weird. The problem with chicken is that, yes, you have to assume it has salmonella, which can be deadly and there's no other way to get rid of it than cooking the meat all the way through.

I'm not sure how the inmune system of the afghans reacts to these bacterias or how salmonella-free are their chickens, but I can say that I still make mayo with my regular egg yolks without fear.

Still, I have a pretty strong stomach, being from south america and all. I think that if they're eating it without getting ill, I would too.

[robyn]

Here's a recent story about salmonella in Spain arising out of some type of chicken that wasn't prepared properly.

Think the reporting from Afghanistan is so terrific we'll ever hear about food problems there? Robyn

[jayt90]

The problem with chicken is that, yes, you have to assume it has salmonella, which can be deadly and there's no other way to get rid of it than cooking the meat all the way through.

←

Can be deadly? In Robyn's report, below, 900 Spaniards were sick from roast chicken with salmonella, and, regrettably, one 90 year old man died.

I think salmonella is frequently confused, or lumped together with, Botulism, which can be much more deadly.

[crinoidgirl]

My partner yells at me for doing it, but I MUST eat some raw chicken while I'm cooking it.

Grew up eating raw meat of all sorts, so I wonder if I'm not innoculated.

(Let's try spelling that right )

Edited August 15, 2005 by crinoidgirl (log)

[Bux]

I imagine (though I am merely guessing here) that it is a combination of both western food hysteria, fostered by the makers of anti-bacterial products, toss-away cutting boards, and the like, and the nasty, disgusting, shit-filled, dangerous factory farming process that produces most of the chicken eaten in this country.

←

Mostly the latter. Twenty years ago we roasted our chickens to the degree that left them quite pink, almost bloody at the joints. We still might do that with a local farm chicken, but never a supermarket chicken. Then again, we've stopped buying chickens in the supermarket. I would largely discount immunity or tolerances built up as a reason for the spread of salmonella. They may be finding more salmonella because they're doing more testing and that may relate to the idea that hysteria plays a part in our perception, but I suspect it's simply a matter of the factory conditions under which most chicken is processed today in the U.S.

[robyn]

I can't remember which Art Culinaire it was, but one of the chefs prepared some chicken sashimi... I remember thinking it was weird. The problem with chicken is that, yes, you have to assume it has salmonella, which can be deadly and there's no other way to get rid of it than cooking the meat all the way through.

I'm not sure how the inmune system of the afghans reacts to these bacterias or how salmonella-free are their chickens, but I can say that I still make mayo with my regular egg yolks without fear.

Still, I have a pretty strong stomach, being from south america and all. I think that if they're eating it without getting ill, I would too.

←

Salmonella is something you can get from raw or undercooked chicken. Period. See this for example. And the way to avoid it is by cooking the chicken. That's why you won't find raw or rare chicken in the annals of Kosher food (which goes back several thousand years before modern chicken production methods).

It is most often reported in first world countries because first world countries report things like this - and third world countries don't. Heck - it was hard enough to find reports of mass starvation in a country like Niger until the western press "found" the story recently. So you think you'll be able to find reports of 1000 cases of food poisoning in Niger on Google news?

As for deaths - I have never died from food (I am a reasonably healthy adult - I'm not a child - or elderly - or frail). But I have had enough cases of food-induced illnesses (in the US - and outside of the US) to know that not dying seems like scant consolation at times.

I'm going to Japan soon. Should I eat the chicken sashimi - and risk spending a couple of days/nights on the bathroom floor? Don't think so (been there - done that - life - and particularly vacations - are too short to spend any time on the bathroom floor). Not to mention that when you have problems in distant countries - it's pretty hard to find medical providers with whom you can communicate (we expected problems in Egypt - and found them - but were surprised to have to use our limited Italian - and a big dictionary - because none of the medical people we dealt with in Italy spoke English). But if you take any of these trips - or similar trips - or choose simply to experiment at home - it is - of course - your choice. Robyn

[divalasvegas]

And please don't forget salmonella's hunchbacked, stepsister campylobacter Campylobacter Q&As Years ago I learned of the sudden onset of severe illness by the son of one of the business owners at the company I worked for at the time. Coincidentally, or not, he was a chef in his twenties. First presented with flu-like symptoms that quickly progressed to paralysis, systemic organ failure, and a coma. The strain he contracted probably would have one praying for salmonella instead. Thank God he was young and pulled through. Diagnosis: campylobacter from undercooked chicken.

Like Robyn, though vicariously from his experience, that was enough for me and let's face it, the likelihood of me eating Afghani raised chicken in the near future is nil. So I think I'll pass on the chicken sashimi or chicken tartare. After all, Southern fried chicken is really the only way to go!

[arjay]

I sincerely hope that eating raw chicken is dangerous. I'm much more afraid of people who want to eat it raw than the chicken itself.

rj

[divalasvegas]

I sincerely hope that eating raw chicken is dangerous. I'm much more afraid of people who want to eat it raw than the chicken itself.

rj

←

THAT IS JUST ABSOLUTELY THE BEST!!!

[robyn]

And please don't forget salmonella's hunchbacked, stepsister campylobacter Campylobacter Q&As  Years ago I learned of the sudden onset of severe illness by the son of one of the business owners at the company I worked for at the time.  Coincidentally, or not, he was a chef in his twenties.  First presented with flu-like symptoms that quickly progressed to paralysis, systemic organ failure, and a coma.  The strain he contracted probably would have one praying for salmonella instead.  Thank God he was young and pulled through.  Diagnosis: campylobacter from undercooked chicken.

Like Robyn, though vicariously from his experience, that was enough for me and let's face it, the likelihood of me eating Afghani raised chicken in the near future is nil.  So I think I'll pass on the chicken sashimi or chicken tartare.  After all, Southern fried chicken is really the only way to go!

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I am a "she" - but otherwise agree 100% with your message - especially the southern fried chicken . Robyn

[Cedreena]

Don't forget salmonella poisoning also can be contracted from eating cooked chicken that is reheated for not long enough or hot enough.

This happened to me at a hotel were I worked on nights. The head porter would heat up the meals that had been left for the four staff that were working through the night. I got food poisoning next day and I thought I was going to die.

I thought it was down to a sandwich I bought and reported the shop to the Health Dept.

They rang me back and questioned me thoroughly and worked out it was the chicken supper at the hotel, by my symptons and the timing. Did I want them to investigate the Hotel. I declined and said I would have a word with the culprit I didn't want to lose my job

[Cedreena]

It really comes down to freshness and lack of processing.

If you eat anything fresh enough, and if it is handled correctly, you can eat just about anything raw with only the risk of the parasites and/or pathogens it might be carrying.

In Japan at Imaiya Honten I was served chicken sashimi and chicken tataki (seared outside-raw inside) as part of sort of a "head-to-toe" progression of Yakitori.

They are one of the few restaurants to serve "Hinai Jidori" - a special breed of almost wild chicken from Hinai - the birds are "processed" by the cooks at the restaurant.

I have to say that one, it was delicious, and two - there were no adverse affects what-so-ever.

Edit:

Tataki of Hinai Jidori Chicken

←

Oh dear! that really turns my stomach over but then I can't handle anything "rare"

[divalasvegas]

And please don't forget salmonella's hunchbacked, stepsister campylobacter Campylobacter Q&As  Years ago I learned of the sudden onset of severe illness by the son of one of the business owners at the company I worked for at the time.  Coincidentally, or not, he was a chef in his twenties.  First presented with flu-like symptoms that quickly progressed to paralysis, systemic organ failure, and a coma.  The strain he contracted probably would have one praying for salmonella instead.  Thank God he was young and pulled through.  Diagnosis: campylobacter from undercooked chicken.

Like Robyn, though vicariously from his experience, that was enough for me and let's face it, the likelihood of me eating Afghani raised chicken in the near future is nil.  So I think I'll pass on the chicken sashimi or chicken tartare.  After all, Southern fried chicken is really the only way to go!

←

I am a "she" - but otherwise agree 100% with your message - especially the southern fried chicken . Robyn

←

Yo Robyn, please forgive my inelegant sentence structure. When I said: "....though vicariously from his experience" the "his" referred to the chef's unfortunate experience. And, with all of your depth, wit and wisdom, how could you be anything else but a "she?"