Wine Lists

[Vancitygirl]

Over the course of this weekend I have seen a few wine menus. One VERY IMPRESSIVE - price wise and choice wise - one not - others.........????. What is the normal markup charged - and what does everyone think that a Vancouver Wine List should entail? More specitically - how many wines, from which countries, how much BC?? Please help. I am thirsty and interested.

Edited August 2, 2005 by Vancitygirl (log)

[nwyles]

My pricing is basically a one time mark-up, rounded up to a pricing structure that I have set up for the glass price ( $6.00, $7.00, $8.00 etc up to $11.00 ). There are couple of wine that are not available to the general public that you can make a couple of dollars more but that is about it.

Restaurant Secrets 101 revealed.

Others will go two or sometimes three times, depending on what their customers will pay. I have heard of someone in my neighbourhood appraoching a ten times mark-up on wines that are not available in town. You can always find a fairly priced gem on any list in town if you know what you are doing and what you are looking for.

[SBonner]

When I'm developing wine lists I like Neil's concept. Any mark up above 120% really annoys me. Unfortunately there are no price breaks or case lot discounts available to the restuarant trade like most civilised countries so we are all stuck overpaying for wines. On the other hand by international standards our food costs are reasonable so it all balances out.

Cheers,

Stephen

Edited August 2, 2005 by SBonner (log)

[2roost]

Price what the market will bear - and let the buyer (with the help of their server) find the value.

[bigdaddy]

Used to be that 100% was the general mark-up rule.

We go from about that for the least expensive bottles and

decrease the mark-up as the wines increase in price...down

to below 50% mark-up (why pay $100 mark-up just cause

the wine cost $100?). I'd rather get a $30 mark-up for a nice

bottle that leaves the customer feeling that they've had something

special than the same amount of profit for an inferior experience.

What wines belong on the list depends upon the cuisine, style of

restaurant, etc. Wine lists should be as individual as food menus!

(Bravo Restaurant & Lounge, Chilliwack)

[Daddy-A]

(Bravo Restaurant & Lounge, Chilliwack)

←

Thanks for the disclaimer! And welcome to the eGullet throngs. Nice to have another voice from the valley.

A.

[mkjr]

When I'm developing wine lists I like Neil's concept. Any mark up above 120% really annoys me. Unfortunately there are no price breaks or case lot discounts available to the restuarant trade like most civilised countries so we are all stuck overpaying for wines. On the other hand by international standards our food costs are reasonable so it all balances out.

Cheers,

Stephen

←

Please correct me if I am wrong but it was always my understanding that the price that a licensee pays for an item that is carried by the BCLDB is 17% lower than what I as a consumer would pay (– i.e. the licensee does not pay the liquor tax or GST on the purchase but flows it back to the consumer). For example if the bottle of wine was $35.00 a licensee would pay $29.05, although I normally see the $35.00 bottle for $70 on the menu, and then pay GST and liquor tax on top? Is this not correct?

[nwyles]

When I'm developing wine lists I like Neil's concept. Any mark up above 120% really annoys me. Unfortunately there are no price breaks or case lot discounts available to the restuarant trade like most civilised countries so we are all stuck overpaying for wines. On the other hand by international standards our food costs are reasonable so it all balances out.

Cheers,

Stephen

←

Please correct me if I am wrong but it was always my understanding that the price that a licensee pays for an item that is carried by the BCLDB is 17% lower than what I as a consumer would pay (– i.e. the licensee does not pay the liquor tax or GST on the purchase but flows it back to the consumer). For example if the bottle of wine was $35.00 a licensee would pay $29.05, although I normally see the $35.00 bottle for $70 on the menu, and then pay GST and liquor tax on top? Is this not correct?

←

We get a discount of 8.54 % Not very much, and does not make a huge difference. Beer and wine stores get a bigger discount of about 17 % or higher but not restaurants.

[bigdaddy]

Licensees get the discount previously mentioned, but pay the GST. (All businesses can claim GST credits at the end of the year after paying an accountant a heap of dough for figuring it all out!). I would be a little surprised to see a bottle that is listed for the consumer at $30 (and therefore $35 with taxes) being priced at $70 on a wine list. Obviously owners mark-up as they please to suit their market but...I do mark-ups based on what I pay for a product. (a happy customer is a return customer).

[mzungu]

Which place had the impressive wine list? Do tell!

[FannyBay]

Here's the thing about mark-ups...Generally the only thing a restaurant makes any revenue from, and therefore profits, is the sale of food and the sale of beverages.

After you deduct the cost of the plates, glasses, cleaning products, staff, electricity, water etc., as well as the actual cost of the food or beverage, there is not that much left. Add linens to tabletops and linen napkins, you double your expenses. Add expensive glassware and china, you add another cost. And you haven't even paid your rent yet!

When you order wine in a top restaurant you expect to get crystal stemware, waiters in designer uniforms, state of the art washrooms, hostesses at the door and starched linen. Therefore the cost of the wine should be higher, or rather the markup higher. If you are a restaurant like, say Henry's, the little diner on the Westside, or a pizza place on Commercial, you should not expect such a mark-up as they have no linens, uniforms or expensive glassware.

Some restaurants have a higher mark-up because they are carrying 100-$200,000.00 and more in wine inventory and that's a huge investment that needs to pay off. Their clients pay for the privilege of ordering wines that they cannot find in liquor stores, old vintages and wines that they can order 6-8-10 bottles of for a large party.

And some restaurants, such as Earls, are able to offer very good, sometimes great wine prices because they buy in bulk (they have the same wine lists in all their restaurants and yes, they get discounts for their bulk purchases) and make their profits more from volume. Occasionally you find restaurants that charge ridiculous markups for no apparent reason, (like a certain restaurant in Yaletown that shall not be mentioned) or restaurateurs who have such a love of wine they want to share that with their guests like Ousi Bistro, a fairly casual Cajon restaurant up on South Granville that has a flat $20.00 per bottle mark-up and serves all their wine, no matter what the price, in crystal Riedel wine glasses as they believe it tastes better in good glasses. (I think the glasses are more expensive then many of their entrée prices!)

However, a 100% markup seems to be the norm in Vancouver and we can count ourselves lucky that we don't live in London where 300 & 400% markups can happen.

[Daddy-A]

Which place had the impressive wine list? Do tell!

←

Yes, let's start speaking about local specifics to keep things OT for this forum. The discsussion of mark-ups pertaining to Vancouver/Western Canada I believe has been covered.

From a mark-up POV, I found the Aurora list quite good. I'll admitt to being a bit biased towards their all BC approach. Earls (I know I'll take some flack for this) also does an admirable job.

I'm sure others more educated than I can comment further ...

A.

[bigdaddy]

From a mark-up POV, I found the Aurora list quite good.  I'll admitt to being a bit biased towards their all BC approach.  Earls (I know I'll take some flack for this) also does an admirable job. 

A.

←

"New world" wines are definitely the appeal to a huge segment of the mid-range to upscale casual fine-dining crowd. Personally...I've never been a big fan of all-BC lists, either as a customer or a proprietor. I understand the rationale from a small restaurant/marketing point of view, but in general I'd rather see a thoughtful and interesting selection from various regions. For me, combining a large selection of BC wines with other wines from around the world shows a confidence in local products that doesn't always come through in more restricted lists.

Edited August 4, 2005 by bigdaddy (log)

[kurtisk]

From a mark-up POV, I found the Aurora list quite good.  I'll admitt to being a bit biased towards their all BC approach.  Earls (I know I'll take some flack for this) also does an admirable job. 

Hey, thanks! Can't really take any credit, just the classic 100% around here. In very odd cases, I throw on another buck or two when warranted, but overall it's 100% which, to be honest, makes my job a heck of a lot easier.

Edited August 5, 2005 by kurtisk (log)

[kurtisk]

"New world" wines are definitely the appeal to a huge segment of the mid-range to upscale casual fine-dining crowd. Personally...I've never been a big fan of all-BC lists, either as a customer or a proprietor. I understand the rationale from a small restaurant/marketing point of view, but in general I'd rather see a thoughtful and interesting selection from various regions. For me, combining a large selection of BC wines with other wines from around the world shows a confidence in local products that doesn't always come through in more restricted lists.

For sure, yo.

Ours is a bit more of a no-brainer, as our entire concept is Canadian/BC. "Let's dig into our own bounty and see how well we can provide from it." In saying that however, I'd love to play around with Jeff's food a bit more and have the whole world to cherry-pick from, no doubt! While Jeff and I have discussed this at length a zillion times now, we both feel it's more honourable to stay true to our concept, support the locals, be able to dig a little deeper in our region, and spread the word of how BC kicks ass!

Keepin' it real on the East Side,

k.

[barolo]

I've always understood 100% to be the "standard" markup here, although they can range a lot higher and lower. From a consumer perspective I, of course, say the lower the better.

As for what should be on the list, I'd say that depends on the restaurant and the menu. The last thing I want to see is a generic wine list. A "thoughtful and interesting" selection, as suggested by bigdaddy, which reflects the restaurant menu, and is updated regularly, sounds about right. I'd rather see a small well-chosen list than a sprawling list of old standards, half of which are not even available. Off the top of my head, Umami's wine list strikes me as a small well-chosen selection, as does CRU's.

I appreciate a good by-the-glass selection. Even more appreciated are consumer friendly by-the-glass policies. One policy that stands out for me is Brasserie l'ecole's (they also have a good beer list): anything on their list is available by the glass so long as you order two glasses (per table). The price of a single glass of wine is 1/5th the cost of a bottle, so there's no penalty for drinking by the glass.

And it should go without saying that I really don't like getting a glass of wine from a bottle that was opened last week and has sat on the counter since then.

Finally, some good advice from a sommelier or a well versed server is most welcome, upselling is not.

I notice local restaurants are starting to offer more consumer friendly wine lists with CRU's list standing out in that regard. Pairing suggestions on the menu are a good idea and I suspect a smart business practice too.

[BCinBC]

Although I'd agree that pricing of a glass of wine based on 1/5 of the bottle price is great (amazing really), I actually don't mind paying a small premium on a glass of wine. Anne you mentioned the resto running the risk of having a bottle open for some time - I imagine this is the main detractor for having all bottles by-the-glass. I understand that there is a possibility of a portion of the bottle going to waste (or more likely into some waiter's belly), and therefore if I have to pay $1 for the privaledge of having wine by the glass, so be it.

Having said that, where the new-ish take home policy really comes in handy is when you only really want a couple glasses or a 1/2 litre or something. Then it's handy to be able to buy the bottle, drink what you want, then cork it and take the rest home.

As for markups, I find myself almost giddy when I see 100% only. Otherwise I'd swear the "standard" is to sell an $18 bottle for $47-49.

[barolo]

Although I'd agree that pricing of a glass of wine based on 1/5 of the bottle price is great (amazing really), I actually don't mind paying a small premium on a glass of wine. Anne you mentioned the resto running the risk of having a bottle open for some time - I imagine this is the main detractor for having all bottles by-the-glass. I understand that there is a possibility of a portion of the bottle going to waste (or more likely into some waiter's belly), and therefore if I have to pay $1 for the privaledge of having wine by the glass, so be it.

Having said that, where the new-ish take home policy really comes in handy is when you only really want a couple glasses or a 1/2 litre or something. Then it's handy to be able to buy the bottle, drink what you want, then cork it and take the rest home.

As for markups, I find myself almost giddy when I see 100% only. Otherwise I'd swear the "standard" is to sell an $18 bottle for $47-49.

←

Yes, I agree with you. I don't mind paying a small premium for wine by the glass as long as they are not offering up their week old crap, but of course I'm going to highlight a good deal like the Brasserie's. I think there could be more creativity around wine by the glass without if becoming business liability.

Also agree that the take home policy is good thing, although I often forget about it when I'm making my decisions. And come to think of it, I've never had a server suggest that I could just buy a bottle, drink a couple of glasses and take the rest home when I've been pondering the by-the-glass list.

And yes, while 100% was touted as the traditional markup, it has probably moved up from there in most places.

Edited August 4, 2005 by barolo (log)

[Ling]

As for markups, I find myself almost giddy when I see 100% only. Otherwise I'd swear the "standard" is to sell an $18 bottle for $47-49.

←

Me too...often, I find that 150% mark-up is more the norm.

(And there's nothing wrong with liking wine list at Earl's, Daddy-A!)

[nwyles]

Earl's uses their buying power to get the Penfold's St. Henri Shiraz which is $44 at the Liquor store and sells it for $49. Also the Beringer Knight's Valley Cab is $55 when it is $50 at the liquor store. We have started going on Sundays as the kids like Earls.

Two Sundays ago :

Joan orders a martini.

I order a bottle of St. Henri.

"Sir, that does not come by the glass, only the bottle ! "

"That's OK - I'll be fine !

I think that Earl's buys all of the St. Henri as it sell out of the Liquor Store in about a week or so.

Edited August 5, 2005 by nwyles (log)

[Ling]

I think these are another 2 of the great wine deals at Earl's:

Yalumba Y Series Cabernet Sauvignon

Yalumba Viognier Y Series

[Daddy-A]

Earls (I know I'll take some flack for this) also does an admirable job. 

(And there's nothing wrong with liking wine list at Earl's, Daddy-A!) 

Where did I say that? Where? I've been know to go to Earl's simply for a bottle of Yalumba ... and some dry ribs too! Great value.

A.

[Keith Talent]

So being that the discounts available to a restaurant are detailed above, how does Earls make any money selling the wine? I don't quite get how "buying power" would benefit someone when dealing with the monopoly.

[nwyles]

So being that the discounts available to a restaurant are detailed above, how does Earls make any money selling the wine? I don't quite get how "buying power" would benefit someone when dealing with the monopoly.

←

They cut seperate deals with the wine producers. If you look, none of the wines I mentioned at Earls have CSPC codes on them. They are purchased under a seperate arrangement. If I could get the codes, I understand that the Liquor Board would have to sell them to me at the same price. It is a sweet deal if you can get it.

[bigdaddy]

Also agree that the take home policy is good thing, although I often forget about it when I'm making my decisions. And come to think of it, I've never had a server suggest that I could just buy a bottle, drink a couple of glasses and take the rest home when I've been pondering the by-the-glass list.

The reason you aren't being prompted by servers to buy a bottle of wine with the intention of taking the unfinished bottle home could derive from the confusion caused by LCB policy. It is still technically against the terms of a restaurant liquor license to have a customer just push the cork back in the bottle, slip it into their jacket and leave.

If a restaurant wants to allow customers to leave with an unfinished bottle they are required to have a specific machine that "re-corks" the bottle with a new (unused) cork and...

"tell customers who are driving that they must store the wine behind the rear seat, in the trunk, or in an exterior compartment - it must be out of reach of people in the car".

This is a new policy and media reports of our new "liberalized" regs have left consumers with the expectation that they can just take the bottle home without the hassle or the lecture. Personally, I'm not sure what the repercussions/liabilities will be for a restaurateur who hasn't followed the regs the first time there is a problem (drinking/driving, etc).

Edited August 5, 2005 by bigdaddy (log)