Corkage in BC

[Daddy-A]

From a discussion the "Queen of cuisine" thread:

NAME REMOVED will indeed do corkage, $12/bottle I believe. Otherwise they have two wine choices: house red or house white.

I know we've discussed this elsewhere but isn't BYOB is illegal in BC? I know it's done, but my understanding is that establishments that allow corkage are doing so against the liquor laws.

If this is the case, it's best we don't "name names" in forum, for a variety of reasons

Do I understand the rules correctly or not?

A.

[nwyles]

You understand the rules correctly. Corkage fees and bringing your own product into a restaurant is strictly prohibited. I seem to recall ONtario has a different view on this but here in B.C., that is a no no.

[Keith Talent]

So I can carry wine out of a restaurant, but not in? And correct me if I'm wrong, this is merely a speculation, but I'd guess that The BC Restaurant Association is lobbying hard against corkage, but firmly in favour of take home bottles? That's the only (semi) logical explanation for a complete bueraucratic dogs breakfast that we have now.

[vanderb]

Bringing your own wine in BC is definately a "no no", as opposed to Alberta where it is legit so long as the restaurant has it on their license. In Alberta call in advance to your favourite place and see if they permit it.

Vanderb (ever hungry)

[nwyles]

I am not sure what the logic is on this issue. The "Man" gets his tax money if you buy from the government stores anyways. I would imagine it is about control and about volume.

10 % tax on a $20.00 bottle of wine is $2.00 plus a 10 % tax on the corkage ( $20.00 ) is another $2.00 so the taxman sees $4.00 on your bottle of wine.

10 % tax on a $20.00 bottle of wine is $2.00 plus a 10 % tax on the marked up price ( $60.00 ) is another $6.00 so the taxman sees $8.00 on your bottle of wine if you buy it in a restaurant.

From the restauant side, $20.00 corkage on $0.00 inventory layout is not bad but it has to be balanced with the potential of the $60.00 loss in sales although it carries a $20.00 wholesale pricetag. As far as percentages goes, it is good but percentages do not pay the rent.

[Keith Talent]

I'm stupid. Dumb it down a little.

As a restaurantuer, would you rather sell a bottle for 60 that you originally paid 20 for, or would you prefer to collect a twenty dollar corkage charge? And do all the local chefs/restaurantuers feel the same, or is there dissent among the local pros?

[SBonner]

I am not sure what the logic is on this issue. The "Man" gets his tax money if you buy from the government stores anyways. I would imagine it is about control and about volume.

10 % tax on a $20.00 bottle of wine is $2.00 plus a 10 % tax on the corkage ( $20.00 ) is another $2.00 so the taxman sees $4.00 on your bottle of wine.

10 % tax on a $20.00 bottle of wine is $2.00 plus a 10 % tax on the marked up price ( $60.00 ) is another $6.00 so the taxman sees $8.00 on your bottle of wine if you buy it in a restaurant.

From the restauant side, $20.00 corkage on $0.00 inventory layout is not bad but it has to be balanced with the potential of the $60.00 loss in sales although it carries a $20.00 wholesale pricetag. As far as percentages goes, it is good but percentages do not pay the rent.

←

Hi Neil,

Are you getting 200% mark up in Yaletown? Nice if you are. I can not imagine charging a customer $60 for a $20 bottle of wine.

Cheers,

Stephen

[nwyles]

I am not sure what the logic is on this issue. The "Man" gets his tax money if you buy from the government stores anyways. I would imagine it is about control and about volume.

10 % tax on a $20.00 bottle of wine is $2.00 plus a 10 % tax on the corkage ( $20.00 ) is another $2.00 so the taxman sees $4.00 on your bottle of wine.

10 % tax on a $20.00 bottle of wine is $2.00 plus a 10 % tax on the marked up price ( $60.00 ) is another $6.00 so the taxman sees $8.00 on your bottle of wine if you buy it in a restaurant.

From the restauant side, $20.00 corkage on $0.00 inventory layout is not bad but it has to be balanced with the potential of the $60.00 loss in sales although it carries a $20.00 wholesale pricetag. As far as percentages goes, it is good but percentages do not pay the rent.

←

Hi Neil,

Are you getting 200% mark up in Yaletown? Nice if you are. I can not imagine charging a customer $60 for a $20 bottle of wine.

Cheers,

Stephen

←

I only get $40.00 for a $20.00 wine but in the restaurants to the immediate West, 200 % markup is just a starting point.

[nondual1]

So I can carry wine out of a restaurant, but not in? And correct me if I'm wrong, this is merely a speculation, but I'd guess that The BC Restaurant Association is lobbying hard against corkage, but firmly in favour of take home bottles?

←

Are we sure that we really can take bottles home from dining establishments? Any establishments or only those with an separate off-sale store?

And are we talking about un-opened bottles or bottles that are opened but not finished?

Who's doing the enforcement, by the way -- the VPD or the LCB?

[Keith Talent]

Are we sure that we really can take bottles home from dining establishments? Any establishments or only those with an separate off-sale store?

And are we talking about un-opened bottles or bottles that are opened but not finished?

Who's doing the enforcement, by the way -- the VPD or the LCB?

←

I've done it and seen it done. It is compleetly legal.

[easy]

From another piont of view, "the man" will not neccessarily make much more money on the mark ups that restaurants charge. The consumer pays PST at the store and then the restaurant will pay the PST on the corkage. Remember, licencees do not pay PST at the stores.

I love that people can take botles with them. It's usually the deceiding factor for patrons unsure about how much wine they want, it adds value for them as well. Lets be honest too, how many people actually leave with unfinished bottles.

Allowing corkage, as I see it, would be a real pain in unmoved inventory and tied up capital.

[the g-man]

I know we've discussed this elsewhere but isn't BYOB is illegal in BC?  I know it's done, but my understanding is that establishments that allow corkage are doing so against the liquor laws.

If this is the case, it's best we don't "name names" in forum, for a variety of reasons

Do I understand the rules correctly or not?

A.

←

Straight from the horse's mouth, here is the scoop from the Provincial Regulations to the Liquor Control and Licensing Act:

Consumption of liquor in licensed establishments

42 (1) A person must not consume liquor in a licensed establishment unless that liquor has been purchased from or served by the licensee of that licensed establishment.

(2) A licensee must not allow consumption in the licensed establishment of liquor that was not purchased from or served by the licensee.

(3) A licensee, and the employees of the licensee, must not consume liquor while working in the licensed establishment.

(4) All liquor sold or served in a licensed establishment must be consumed there, and the licensee must not allow liquor, other than the following, to be taken from the licensed establishment:

(a) a bottle of wine that is unfinished by a patron and sealed by the licensee before being taken by that patron from the licensed establishment;

(b) liquor that is sold for consumption off premises in accordance with the Act, this regulation and the terms and conditions of the licence.

....

Edited July 27, 2005 by the g-man (log)

[BCinBC]

There was some discussion on this in the wine forum, 2roost and my posts here. I am all for taking unfinished wine home, but I can see why a restaurant would be reluctant to do BYOB: profits (though you can make up with corkage as Neil has pointed out) and pre-selected wine list to go with menu / chef's / sommellier's tastes being two reasons.

But what about a mom-and-pop who make great food but just don't put effort or have the money to put into the wine list? Take out, I guess. Or beer.

[nondual1]

Straight from the horse's mouth, here is the scoop from the Provincial Regulations to the Liquor Control and Licensing Act:

Consumption of liquor in licensed establishments

42 (1) A person must not consume liquor in a licensed establishment unless that liquor has been purchased from or served by the licensee of that licensed establishment.

(2) A licensee must not allow consumption in the licensed establishment of liquor that was not purchased from or served by the licensee.

←

Hold on a sec, folks...

Assuming the above-quoted is all the law regarding BYOB, it would appear that BYOB is in fact *legal*.

It does not say "purchased from *and* served by the licensee." In other words, whereas pulling out a bottle from within one's baggie-pants and starting to gulp straight from the mouth of the bottle is illegal, it appears to be legal if one hands over the bottle to one's server, asks nicely that it be served -- by opening it and providing the necessary glasses and so on -- and then receives said service.

Can anyone provide any case law to dispute or support that reading of the law?

(4) All liquor sold or served in a licensed establishment must be consumed there, and the licensee must not allow liquor, other than the following, to be taken from the licensed establishment:

(a) a bottle of wine that is unfinished by a patron and sealed by the licensee before being taken by that patron from the licensed establishment;

(b) liquor that is sold for consumption off premises in accordance with the Act, this regulation and the terms and conditions of the licence.

←

And regarding taking a bottle home: it would appear, from the above, that establishments without an off-sale license may not sell an un-opened bottle to a patron to be taken home.

I wish it was otherwise: everytime I see a Burrowing Owl merlot on a wine-list, I have to try very hard to suppress the urge to ask if I may get one (bottle) for the show and one (preferrably case) for the road. They are so hard to come by...

Edited for font

Edited July 27, 2005 by nondual1 (log)

[peppyre]

There was a very very quiet change made to the law about a year ago (?).

**edited to clarify and make more sense.

Edited July 27, 2005 by peppyre (log)

[SBonner]

Having built a number of restaurant wines lists I can tell you that it is illegal to bring your own bottle of wine to a restaurant. You can however take home any unfinished wine purchased at the establishment. Based on the BYOB restaurants in Australia they usually charge between $8-$15 Aus$ for corkage. It seems popular there due to the fact a restaurant can reduce staffing (no sommeliers, bar managers) and it frees up inventory dollars that they can use for other overheads. Some restaurants offer a combination BYOB and small wine list for tourists or the absent minded. I say get to know your favourite restaurant owner or manager very well and drop off a bottle from your personal collection during the day and leave a big tip when it's presented to you at table side.

Cheers,

Stephen

Edited July 27, 2005 by SBonner (log)

[mtigges]

But what about a mom-and-pop who make great food but just don't put effort or have the money to put into the wine list? Take out, I guess. Or beer.

←

Most restaurants in Vancouver or the rest of Western Canada, oh hell, the entire world (ok, maybe just North America) do not serve any beer that is drinkable. (Notice I said most, there are exceptions, ie. Chambar.)

Any restaurant that has a decent beer selection will very likely have a decent wine selection. IMO beer is not something to fall back on when the wine selection is poor. You don't drink crappy wine, so why should you drink crappy beer? I'll stop short of proferring my opinion that beer is generally a better accompaniement to food than wine. ..... oooops.

Edited July 27, 2005 by mtigges (log)

["T"]

Just came back from dinner out. Paid $24.00 corkage for a mag of Fonterutolli CC 2000 and a 750 ml of Vire Clesse.

Regardless of the legalities I thank restaurants that allow me to do so.

[appreciator]

edit.... oh just agreeing with Nondual1 above.... regardless of what others say if one is to interpret what is "allegedly written as law" then it would appear that BYOB is indeed a-okay.

We'll have to get the old legal beagles out to investigate for certain.

Although.... if it is not true, it's a shame, really. Of course taking your bottle of home-made plonk to a nice resto is gigantically off the mark if you have something lovely you've been wanting to save for a special occasion and the resto does not offer it on it's own wine list then why not bring it along, pay an appropriate corkage and everyone is happy.

Lucky for "T" he has an in.... (care to share via PM???? )

Edited July 28, 2005 by appreciator (log)

[2roost]

Truth be told, if you work in the business many restaurants (especially those with good wine programs) are happy to let you bring in "a special bottle" - corkage will be $10-$20. Please do the right thing and:

1) buy a bottle off the wine list

2) tip appropriately

3) be discreet

4) be thankful

[young one]

Also, CALL AHEAD to make sure it is okay!! No showing up and just whipping it out.

[Keith Talent]

No showing up and just whipping it out.

←

The joke is so easy I refuse to make it.

And let me get something straight. As per 2roost, I should buy a bottle off the list in addition to the corkage? Why? In no other industry I can think of does provindng an service for a customer entitle the vendor to extra compensation.

[BCinBC]

I was going to say that I read it as "buy" ie bring a bottle that is not already on the list. However, when I read it again I see what you're saying. It might mean "buy" a bottle on the list, then the waiter can bring your contraband bottle over for consumption. As you noted, that means double-paying for both a bottle and a corkage. Assuming you don't actually drink the bottle from the list, why the corkage fee?

[Vancitygirl]

No showing up and just whipping it out.

←

The joke is so easy I refuse to make it.

And let me get something straight. As per 2roost, I should buy a bottle off the list in addition to the corkage? Why? In no other industry I can think of does provindng an service for a customer entitle the vendor to extra compensation.

←

Mr. Talent - I believe what was meant was buy a bottle that is on the list - ie bring in your own wine, but make sure it is a bottle on the list. That way it will still look like it has come from the restaurant. I don't really know if this makes a hell of a lot of sense, but I think that was what was meant.

[BCinBC]

No showing up and just whipping it out.

←

The joke is so easy I refuse to make it.

And let me get something straight. As per 2roost, I should buy a bottle off the list in addition to the corkage? Why? In no other industry I can think of does provindng an service for a customer entitle the vendor to extra compensation.

←

Mr. Talent - I believe what was meant was buy a bottle that is on the list - ie bring in your own wine, but make sure it is a bottle on the list. That way it will still look like it has come from the restaurant. I don't really know if this makes a hell of a lot of sense, but I think that was what was meant.

←

I don't think so, otherwise why wouldn't you buy the restaurant's bottle? That's like walking into a restaurant and saying, hey I don't like your halibut, use this piece I brought with me to make the dish.