What does a city have to do to get some respect?

[Gifted Gourmet]

Just returned from California and my usual shopping there always makes me wonder what a city the size of Atlanta, Georgia, has to do to get some of the better gourmet haunts like Trader Joe's and Dean & DeLuca ...

Do you think that your city is worthy of some "food respect" which has yet to appear?

What are the "barometers" that bring these establishments to town?

Does it irk you?

What gourmet grocery are you waiting for?

(fully acknowledge that there is a long thread on Trader Joe's from 2002 here at eG but this is a new complaint...)

[Pan]

You think Dean & Deluca is so good? Almost everyone I know in New York spends their time avoiding it. Why don't you wish for someplace like Fairway or Zabar's instead? Actually, from what I remember, the big Safeway off Market St. (near Duboce? I forget the cross streets, but I think it's at the end of a MUNI line or three) had very good produce and condiments at good prices, from what I remember. Do you have comparable supermarkets in Atlanta? Not good enough for you?

[Gifted Gourmet]

Do you have comparable supermarkets in Atlanta? Not good enough for you?

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(calming down, now breathing normally) We actually do have Fresh Market, Whole Foods, and Eatzis, so we are not about to starve anytime soon ... I think I really became most envious when I went to Trader Joe's ...

now, if we could only get a Zingerman's or Balducci's ....

[jackal10]

They'll come if there is custom and demand enough to support them.

You need to start educating the people - foodie column in the local paper and on the local TV and radio stations.

Examples of well supported local foodie fairs and events

Small, local suppliers and producers with queues out of the door...

Start a food market of a food event yourself...

[therese]

They'll come if there is custom and demand enough to support them.

You need to start educating the people - foodie column in the local paper and on the local TV and radio stations.

Examples of well supported local foodie fairs and events

Small, local suppliers and producers with queues out of the door...

Start a food market of a food event yourself...

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Done and done.

I'm going to go ahead and (once again, sorry) disagree vehemently on this issue with Melissa: Atlanta's already got a great restaurant and food scene. Plenty of local providers and purveyors, huge ethnic markets with great seafood and meats, stunning variety of produce from all over the world.

We do have conventional grocery stores as well, with Publix being the best of the lot, but who shops at conventional grocery stores when you live in Atlanta?

[Gifted Gourmet]

but who shops at conventional grocery stores when you live in Atlanta?

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I, too, shop at Publix, Therese, and at several others as well ... but would it hurt for a TJoe's to open here as well?

and this is not only about Atlanta ...

[SuzySushi]

Hey... try the whole State.

Because we're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, some companies just have no intention of setting up shop in Hawaii, calling it "unprofitable." That means no Whole Foods, no Trader Joe's, no real deli, no artisan bread bakery, no gourmet cheese shop... (Yeah, yeah, we can occasionally get a few crumbs here.) And, not that I especially want them, we also don't have mainland restaurant chains like Applebee's or Olive Garden.

Funny, Costco is making money here, and the Disney store in Ala Moana Center (Honolulu's largest shopping center) is the most profitable store in the whole Disney chain. I've tried pointing that out to other retailers (from Victoria's Secret to Trader Joe's), but they just don't wanna hear it, saying that they have "internal concerns." Hmpph!!!

[therese]

but who shops at conventional grocery stores when you live in Atlanta?

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I, too, shop at Publix, Therese, and at several others as well ... but would it hurt for a TJoe's to open here as well?

and this is not only about Atlanta ...

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Don't get me wrong, I think it would be cool if Trader Joe's entered the Atlanta market, but I don't think the issue is Trader Joe's not having yet done so because we don't know or appreciate cool food (which is why I responded to jackal10's suggestion that that was what was lacking). I think it's more likely that Atlanta is viewed as a nearly saturated market: we've already got so many options that we're unlikely to drop everything and run screaming to Trader Joe's.

I do think that Trader Joe's would do really well here in the far suburbs, places like Alpharetta. Certainly in town as well, but the competition's much stiffer.

[therese]

Because we're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, some companies just have no intention of setting up shop in Hawaii, calling it "unprofitable." That means no Whole Foods, no Trader Joe's, no real deli, no artisan bread bakery, no gourmet cheese shop... (Yeah, yeah, we can occasionally get a few crumbs here.)

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The down side to living in Paradise.

And, not that I especially want them, we also don't have mainland restaurant chains like Applebee's or Olive Garden.

Still sounds like Paradise to me.

[Kevin72]

I moved to Dallas from Atlanta in 1999, and I spent the first year here afterwards pining for the food scene in Atlanta. This was back when Harry's was still around. At any rate, I still think highly of Atlanta's food stores.

Dallas has really come into its own. Central Market, a Balducci's/Harry's-type place, really took off here a few years later, and Whole Foods has agressively started to hit back. I live within 6 minutes of both, so I'm pretty content. In fact, I went to a Balducci's in VA over the holidays and went away thinking Central Market was much, much better (braces self for the hit).

There was the culinary conference (IACP?) here earlier this spring which quite a few eG'ers attended, and I heard positive feedback, particularly in regards to Central Market.

[FabulousFoodBabe]

I think it's more likely that Atlanta is viewed as a nearly saturated market: we've already got so many options that we're unlikely to drop everything and run screaming to Trader Joe's.

I do think that Trader Joe's would do really well here in the far suburbs, places like Alpharetta. Certainly in town as well, but the competition's much stiffer.

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Therese, I lived in Atlanta for just two years and got the same impression. These companies know that getting people in is one thing, but keeping them there is another, especially with so many choices. I like Trader Joe's but it really doesn't fulfill any great need for me ... I stop in when I'm nearby, and that's it. Within a 5-mile radius of my home, there were something ridiculous like ten big grocery stores. Nice ones, to be sure, but I still went to DFM every week.

Here, the Gourmet Garage opened to tremendous excitement in Scarsdale, and lasted for what, a year? I can't even remember.

If real estate were cheaper here, no doubt we'd have a Wegner's (sigh) or even a Central-Market type of place.

[adoxograph]

If there was ever going to be a Zabar's Atlanta, I would totally camp out in Jedi robes in front of the doors until they opened for business.

I think in this day and age, when people are looking to open new locations of a food-related chain, the best thing a city can offer is a market that likes branded goods (even it is the store's brand, thinking of TJ's), likes shopping in stores, and of course, has money to spend that isn't being divided with too much competition.

That having been said, I wonder if outside perception is that people in Atlanta want to shop at "markets" rather than "stores". Every place I have been recommended since moving here (bless you all!) has been decidedly local. The only exception to that is Harry's/Whole Foods - and notice that they didn't outright change the name to Whole Foods. As someone who just arrived, my general impression of Atlanta's views of its own grocery choices could be summed up with, "The chains suck - go drive around Buford Highway for a while." :) I'm not sure that bodes well for any corproate planners, but then again, I think I like it.

Therese's suggestion about Alpharetta may be on target - they certainly like their brand names here and there doesn't seem to be a cash flow issue. That may be the key to getting some of those places into any city - look to the suburbs, Corporate Planners, the suburbs will save you.

[annarborfoodie]

For Trader Joe's in particular, the issue is most likely the geographic location of the state, rather than the "respectability" of the city. I did some research on the company for work (I'm a corporate librarian). They position their stores to match their distribution channels. They have a distribution center in California, and another in Massachusetts. They tend to open new stores along the highways that connect their existing stores. For example, after they opened in Chicago, the Detroit Indianapolis, and Cleveland areas were logical next steps. The furthest South they go currently is Virginia. So it would be a stretch for them to open in Georgia. They keep their costs low because their is no middle man - which means they have to be their own distributor.

I have no complaints about my food-buying options though - we have Trader Joe's, one of the largest Whole Foods in the country, Zingerman's, Big 10 Market (run by guys who used to work at Zingerman's), a great farmer's market, and a couple of good produce and butcher shops. All we're lacking in the immediate vicinity is Costco - we have one about 20 miles away and they've been talking about building one here.

[Pam R]

Do you think that your city is worthy of some "food respect" which has yet to appear?

Yes.

We have a lot of ethnic grocers, but nothing like whole foods or trader joes.

What are the "barometers" that bring these establishments to town?

I'm afraid our issue is that we're just not big enough. I don't know how large a city must be before some of these places open up, but I don't think we're there. Plus, our city has a reputation for being a 'wholesale' town. I think some companies have the idea that the locals wouldn't pay for good stuff - but as we get more and more 'high-end' restaurants, people want to be able to get the goods. As well, I don't think Tarader Joe's is outside of the US. It's tough living so close to the US, getting all of our TV (and commercials) from the US but not being able to access anything. Whole Foods is open in Vancouver and Toronto - I need to fly 3 hours or drive 24 to be there.

Does it irk you?

Yes.

What gourmet grocery are you waiting for?

Any of 'em would do.

[robyn]

Hard for me to believe that Atlanta is that bad (although I don't live or do grocery shopping there). Although the restaurant scene in Jacksonville leaves a lot to be desired - the grocery shopping is really pretty good. There's hardly anything I buy on a regular or more than once in a blue moon basis that I can't find here - even if it takes trips to a handful of stores to get all the things I want. Frankly - I can't say enough about Costco. It has ingredients - particularly in the seasonal produce area - that I can't find anywhere else - like - for example - "white" cherries that I'll be using in a duck dish.

Note that I find Publix weak in the produce area. And there are some everyday items - like celery - that are bad almost everywhere (in our area - Fresh Market is the only place that has decent celery).

Also - when you live in a "slurby" city like Atlanta or Jacksonville - sometimes it's simply a question of finding out who sells what. I was talking with a saleswoman in a store today - and she was lamenting that she couldn't buy monkfish in Jacksonville. But Harris Teeter here has it on a regular basis. She just didn't know to go there.

What are you looking for in Atlanta that you can't find? Robyn

[mizducky]

As another data point in this discussion, I observe that Greater San Diego, an area whose foodie scene has been somewhat bemoaned by various parties, has a couple each of Trader Joe's and Whole Foods. So it would seem that degree of community food-fanaticism is not the only factor that persuades some of these companies to set up outposts here.

Things get even more interesting when one looks at the location of these TJs and WFs around San Diego. One each of the TJ's and Whole Foods is in the Hillcrest neighborhood--not only a nexus of a bunch of restaurants, but the gay/artsy demographic of this neighborhood suggests some intense interest in gourmet food. The other Whole Foods is in an area of La Jolla known as "The Golden Triangle" because of a significant concentration of corporate office towers and condo towers, as well as a major pretty-upscale shopping mall--in this case, it seems WF is going where the bucks are.

But the second TJ's location may seem an enigma at first--it's in smack dab in the middle of the most congested part of Pacific Beach, the beach community most given to surfer/jock/fratboy party-goers, a demographic not usually known for gourmet aspirations. Mind you, there are more well-heeled and sedentary neighborhoods just a few blocks away from the madding crowd on Garnet Ave, PB's main drag and the location of this TJ's--maybe TJ's is after the folks there, but couldn't put the store there because of zoning or property costs or some such. But I also have seen this store doing a land-office business in foods that would appeal to the surfer/jock set--they've got the biggest display of nutritional/energy bars of any TJ's I've been in yet--plus they're almost exactly across the street from a branch of Henry's, a local natural foods grocery chain. So I think in this case TJ's is strategizing both their gourmet offerings and their more health-foody offerings.

What annarborfoodie said about TJ's supply chain is illuminating too. There are probably whole other levels of logistical factors in the decisions made by these chains on where to place stores that we are not even privy to.

P.S. Count me as another who thinks Dean and Deluca's is overpriced and overrated.

[Ducky]

We have some damn fine markets in here in Vancouver - but since you asked: If you could clone the central market in Avignon, and put it down somewhere near my house - you would have my full respect.

[Pan]

Do you have comparable supermarkets in Atlanta? Not good enough for you?

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(calming down, now breathing normally) We actually do have Fresh Market, Whole Foods, and Eatzis, so we are not about to starve anytime soon ... I think I really became most envious when I went to Trader Joe's ...

now, if we could only get a Zingerman's or Balducci's ....

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I didn't mean to make you hyperventilate.

But Balducci's strikes me as another way overpriced place. I guess it's good for money to be no object for some people.

I remember the Trader Joe's in Santa Barbara from my last visit there. Good selection, good products, good prices. That's my kind of place.

[Pan]

Hey... try the whole State.

Because we're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, some companies just have no intention of setting up shop in Hawaii, calling it "unprofitable." That means no Whole Foods, no Trader Joe's, no real deli, no artisan bread bakery, no gourmet cheese shop... (Yeah, yeah, we can occasionally get a few crumbs here.) And, not that I especially want them, we also don't have mainland restaurant chains like Applebee's or Olive Garden.

Funny, Costco is making money here, and the Disney store in Ala Moana Center (Honolulu's largest shopping center) is the most profitable store in the whole Disney chain. I've tried pointing that out to other retailers (from Victoria's Secret to Trader Joe's), but they just don't wanna hear it, saying that they have "internal concerns." Hmpph!!!

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Don't you have great fresh produce in Hawaii, though? I'll bet you have no problem getting great pineapples, mangos, and papayas, and didn't you say you have fresh rambutan there? Plus, you have lots of great Asian food. So I don't feel too sorry for you.

[cakewalk]

Even with all the choices in Manhattan, I'd give them all up for a Trader Joe's. (Well maybe not all, but certainly most.)

[artisan02]

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be cool if Trader Joe's entered the Atlanta market, but I don't think the issue is Trader Joe's not having yet done so because we don't know or appreciate cool food (which is why I responded to jackal10's suggestion that that was what was lacking). I think it's more likely that Atlanta is viewed as a nearly saturated market: we've already got so many options that we're unlikely to drop everything and run screaming to Trader Joe's.

I do think that Trader Joe's would do really well here in the far suburbs, places like Alpharetta. Certainly in town as well, but the competition's much stiffer.

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I am not sure I would agree with the idea of a nearly saturated market. For example, the San Francisco bay area could be viewed as a nearly saturated market too...with all the bounty of California that is available there. However there is an extensive presence of Trader Joes there even with that saturated market.

[SuzySushi]

Don't you have great fresh produce in Hawaii, though? I'll bet you have no problem getting great pineapples, mangos, and papayas, and didn't you say you have fresh rambutan there? Plus, you have lots of great Asian food. So I don't feel too sorry for you.  

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That's true...

And, to be honest, the food scene has changed considerably in the 14 years I've been here. My sister used to have to care-package me kasha and other grains, and we used to order our cheese from California!

But the cuisine here is still primarily Asia-centric, and it's difficult to get ingredients for other cuisines. There's ONE Mexican/Latin American store (plus one that specializes in hot sauces), ONE Indian/Middle Eastern market (opened only in the last year), ONE place that makes fresh pasta (as an offshoot of a restaurant), ONE kosher/Jewish/Israeli store (also opened in the last two years)... If they're out of or don't carry what I'm looking for, tough luck!

Mail order is also not a great option here. A lot of places won't ship beyond the contiguous 48 continental states, or the shipping is prohibitive. We once tried to order 3 pounds of sausage, and the company called us back asking "Do you really want to do this?" after checking with FedEx... the cost of shipping on dry ice would've been $75!!! (There's no "next day air" in Hawaii -- the fastest shipping from the mainland is two days.)

Ah... the cost of Paradise!

[Gifted Gourmet]

Hard for me to believe that Atlanta is that bad

What are you looking for in Atlanta that you can't find?  Robyn

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(a) it's not that bad at all and, if you read my initial post, you will find the answer to

(b) I am looking for a Trader Joe's basically ... can't understand why they are not yet in this city...

[rosebud]

If you have a Whole Foods, you really don't need Dean and DeLuca. When D&D first opened a shop in Georgetown, it was a REALLY big deal. Until I bought some frozen squab for a dinner party which, when they thawed, turned out to be ROTTEN. I got really tired of paying their prices, too.

I usually make chocolate truffles at Christmas to give away and use Callebaut chocolate for this purpose. D&D was charging $15 a pound for it and Whole Foods (which I can actually walk to) was charging $6.99 for the exact same stuff. I haven't been to D&D in a couple of years.

There is a Trader Joe's in Bethesda I can get to by subway and a little bit of a hike, but other than getting real maple syrup cheaper than any place else around here, I don't usually have a need to go there.

A knowledgeable foodie entrepreneur is all you need in Atlanta (or anywhere else).

[Pan]

(b) I am looking for a Trader Joe's basically ... can't understand why they are not yet in this city...

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Well, they aren't here, either. So there!