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Best Of: Butter Cake


Wendy DeBord
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Don't use cake flour! ~ But, you can bake the cake using your bleached all-purpose flour.....  :smile:

This is good to know, thanks, Sarah. I will also go this route when I get the time to try your recipe.

Ruth and kdl1221,

I've been thinking more about the bleached versus unbleached all-purpose flour substitution....

I am interesting in finding out the outcome you guys have when baking the recipe with bleached all-purpose flour because I don't get consistent results when substituting unbleached ap flour with bleached in ALL recipes..... Wendy noted the same in Post #11....Theoretically, the substitution should be fine "according to the substitution charts", but I wrote the recipe specifying unbleached ap flour.....I do know that cake flour will NOT work....

Hmmm..interesting......I will bake my Ultimate Butter Cake using bleached all-purpose flour and let you know my results, too... :wink:

Edited by Sarah Phillips (log)

Happy Baking! Sarah Phillips, President and Founder, http://www.baking911.com

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It should work just fine with bleached flour. The bleached flour cake will have a finer crumb and the cake with unbleached flour will be courser. I find the biggest difference comes between the taste of a item baked with bleached verses non-bleached. AND you almost have to do a side by side taste test to notice. The differences aren't noticable in many/most items. But butter cakes (being a very simple flavored item) are the best example I know of where I can taste the difference between the two flours in a baked good. If I was going to prove a point between the two flours, I'd choose a butter cake recipe to show you.

The unbleached flour has more taste to it. I don't know if I'm tasteing "wheat" or exactly what or why, but unbleached flour in butter cakes tastes the best to me.

Thats not to say you can't bake a good butter cake with bleached or even cake flour..............preference really comes into play here because the different flours do change taste and texture. The extreme is the cake flour where the cake will have a nice fine grain, but the taste won't compare to the unbleached ap flour.

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Hi guys. I am in canada (moved here not too long ago) and I just looked at my bags o' flour:

Ap unbleached, 120 g=14.4 g protein. WOW that's like 14g protein p/cup. Then the cake four 100g=11g protein. So what's a girl to do? Should I start baking cakes with cake flour when they call for AP?

It' s intersting because I tried out that whimsical bakehouse yellow cake from the other thread -- it uses cake flour-- and I thought it came out heavy and crumbly. I'm guessing to much protein in Canadian cake flour?? I thought it was the method (creaming) and my mixing. Guess it could be that too :wacko:

You guys are great. Thanks

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Hi guys. I am in canada (moved here not too long ago) and I just looked at my bags o' flour:

Ap unbleached,  120 g=14.4 g protein.  WOW that's like 14g protein p/cup.  Then the cake four 100g=11g protein.  So what's a girl to do?  Should I start baking cakes with cake flour when they call  for AP?

It' s intersting because I tried out that whimsical bakehouse yellow cake from the other thread -- it uses cake flour-- and I thought it came out heavy and crumbly.  I'm guessing to much protein in Canadian cake flour??  I thought it was the method (creaming) and my mixing. Guess it could be that too :wacko:   

You guys are great.  Thanks

Hi Chantal -- I use the Whimsical Bakehouse butter cake recipes a lot, and I'm betting you're right about the protein in the Canadian flour. When I make the WB butter cakes I never have a texture problem like you describe. Just out of curiosity, what altitude are you at?

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chantal,

If you are baking recipes from a US cookbook, then US all-purpose flour has a gluten protein percent of 12%.... If Canadian cake flour is at 11%, then I would try using Canadian cake flour or you may have to play cake-baking chemist and make your own flour blend....Start with 50% Canadian all-purpose flour and 50% Canadian cake flour per cup.

But, if you are baking a recipe from a Canadian cookbook and it calls for all-purpose flour, then use 100% Canadian all-purpose flour per cup!

Yes, overmixing can cause a cake to be heavy and crumbly...but, if you have the wrong flour or ingredients, it's nearly impossible to get a light, tender cake given the recipe you have.....

When I set out to develop the Ultimate Butter Cake Recipe, I wanted to use every day, easily accessible ingredients, such as all-purpose flour and milk. I knew that it was becoming increasingly hard for home baker's (my audience on baking911.com) to find bleached cake flour and buttermilk in the supermarket or they didn't want to purchase the ingredients and use a small amount (from my research). These two ingredients are key to making tender butter cakes. (bleached cake flour is a low gluten flour = tender, fine crumbed cake; bleached flour = more mixing tolerance = tender cake; buttermilk = (acidic) tenderizer = tender, moist cake is paired with baking soda = enhances flavor in recipes, more browning)

Anyway, it was technically more difficult for me to create a tender, moist everyday Ultimate butter cake using all-purpose flour and milk, with more flavor, because it also required the use of baking powder (less flavor enhancer than baking soda). All-purpose flour is a higher gluten flour and can lead to heavy, dense cakes as you have been experiencing in your own "home-kitchen" labs when you use a higher-gluten Canadian flour....cakes will become crumbly and dry and fall more easily ....(That's why I always say that substitutions don't always work.....) To achieve a tender and moist texture in my Ultimate Butter Cake Recipe, it was a b*i*t*c*h to do, given the ingredients I wanted to use, and took a lot of development time on my part....Phew!

So...the type of flour will always (and of course, other ingredients) have a great impact on the type of cake you are going to get. Cake formulas fascinate me...and of course, mixing and baking methods have an impact, as well....

Edited by Sarah Phillips (log)

Happy Baking! Sarah Phillips, President and Founder, http://www.baking911.com

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Thanks Ruth and Sarah,

I appreciate your help. I'm actually donating a cake for an event (75 people) next week and I can't afford to make a butter cake for that many people -- good butter is $4.50 a pound here. I will try your butter cake Sarah, but not for this event.

I had another question about flour though. So if 100 g of Canadian cake flour has 11g of protein when US cake flour has 7 1/2 -9 grams, there is nothing else I can do right? Do I have to mail order US cake flour or forget it?

I guess it means I'll have to try another one of your cakes Sarah :smile: . What would you reccommend for a sheet cake done in a 1/2 sheet pan (2 of them)? I'd like to use Sheryl Yards chocolate caramel ganache and was thinking about just filling with a little whipped cream.

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I had another question about flour though.  So if 100 g of Canadian cake flour has 11g of protein when US cake flour has 7 1/2 -9 grams, there is nothing else I can do right?  Do I have to mail order US cake flour or forget it? 

According to this link, "high ratio cake flour" should get you in the range you are looking for. I haven't sought out this grade of flour, so I don't know if it's typically available or where it can be purchased.

Edited by sanrensho (log)
Baker of "impaired" cakes...
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I had another question about flour though.  So if 100 g of Canadian cake flour has 11g of protein when US cake flour has 7 1/2 -9 grams, there is nothing else I can do right?  Do I have to mail order US cake flour or forget it? 

Do you have access to pastry flour (another soft, low-protein flour) or Wondra? I'm guessing you could use either of these in conjuction with a/p flour to reduce the protein.

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Inspired by the best of threads last year, I subjected my friends and family to lots of tastings for different flavors. I had a handful of butter cakes that I liked but wasn't sure which to consider the best. After doing a tasting with five different cakes and 30 different tasters, I had a clear winner and have been using this one exclusively ever since. This weekend I am having a get together with about a dozen of my original tasters so I will make my standard cake and Sarah's. I'll report my results and if the one I use still wins, I will submit that recipe for you guys to test.

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Ok... I was all set to start baking away... but I have a problem.

I do not have access to unbleached flour. (I already have to drive almost 20 miles for Scharffen Berger chocolate).

I have tons of bleached flour, and bleached cake flour. If I do the first recipe offered.. the ultimate butter cake, how will this effect the outcome? Should I not even try... ?

Ok, just did some investigating.. Sarah, love the site! :)

But... so back to my question... how will this really effect taste, texture, and such?

Hey, I also live in an area that makes it hard to fine certain ingredients. I never could find King Arthur or anything like that. However, Gold Medal now makes an unbleached AP flour that is very easy for me to find. It is being carried in all my normal grocery stores. It has a brownish label on the front. In some stores they do not place it right beside the bleached AP. Look for it. Theres a good chance you may be surprised like I was! Good luck.

-Becca

www.porterhouse.typepad.com

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Becca Porter said:
kdl1221 said:

Edited by kdl1221 (log)

~K

Thank you as well for the conversational haitus. I generally refrain from speach during gustation. There are those who attempt both at the same time. I find it coarse and vulgar.

Big Dan Teague

O Brother, Where Art Thou?

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Back on post #23 on this thread, Wendy suggested that I add some photos to the recipe: "I just wanted to add: if you can add a photo or two to your post I think that really helps. What your batter looked like before you baked your cake, then after it's baked gives tons of clues.........besides being all around helpful to all."

There are more photos taken on mixing and baking the Ultimate Butter Cake with THE CHEMISTRY BEHIND MAKING BUTTER AND POUND CAKES on http://www.baking911.com/cakes/butterpound.htm

Here's the edited recipe:

The Ultimate (Yellow) Butter Cake Recipe

Makes 2, 9-inch cakes.

PhotoDraw71.jpg

Recipe By :Sarah Phillips, Baking 9-1-1, Simon and Schuster, c 2003

I created the Ultimate Butter Cake to be a rich, moist and tender treat because I was tired of eating dry, flavorless cakes. It has a fine to medium crumb in texture and is somewhat dense, but much lighter than a pound cake. Many brides have selected this for use in a wedding cake because it can be made in so many flavors (and is quite flavorful) and doesn't need a lot of trimming. It can be easily filled and frosted with many types of recipes and decorated or served plain with fruit. It's now my family's favorite all-occasion cake!

The cake is a good keeper, keeping several days at room temperature well-wrapped in plastic wrap or frozen for up to two or three months, wrapped in plastic and then placed in an airtight bag or container.

Ingredients:

4 cups unbleached all purpose flour -- spoon into measuring cup and level to top

3 tsps baking powder

1 tsp salt

2 cups (4 sticks) unsalted butter (use cold; does not have to be at room temperature )

2 cups sugar -- or superfine sugar

3 large eggs -- (use cold; does not have to be at room temperature )

1 1/2 cups whole or 2% milk (use cold; does not have to be at room temperature)

1 tbsp vanilla extract with 1/2 tsp almond extract or 1 teaspoon orange or lemon extract or 1 tablespoon grated orange or 1 to 2 teaspoons lemon peel or 1/4 teaspoon citrus oil

NOTE: Cake is mixed using a 325 watt KitchenAid Mixer. If you are using a more powerful one, adjust the mixing times downward or use the descriptions rather than mixing times with the instructions, otherwise the baked cake will fall apart and/or crumble or dome in the middle from overmixing.

Instructions:

Position the oven shelf in the middle of the oven. Preheat the oven to 350 and grease two 9-inch, preferably light colored, heavy NOT nonstick pans. (If you use dark, nonstick baking pans or ovenproof, Pyrex glass pans, be sure to reduce the oven heat by 25 degrees F).

In a medium bowl, whisk together the flour, baking powder, and salt; set

aside.

Beat the butter with a stand mixer low until softened. (If the butter is cold, it will warm quickly from the beaters). Add the sugar in a steady stream at the side of the bowl. Increase speed to medium and beat for 3 minutes until light yellow and fluffy. Stop the mixer and scrape the side and bottom of the bowl with a large rubber spatula.

PhotoDraw78.jpg

~ This is what the final creamed butter and sugar should look like. Be sure to scrape down the side and bottom of the mixing bowl with a rubber spatula before proceeding to the next step. ~

With the mixer on low, add the eggs one at a time and beat for 20 seconds after each addition. After the eggs have been added, increase the mixer speed to medium and beat the mixture for 2 minutes. (If the eggs are cold, the batter will curdle slightly. It's ok. It will come together as the batter warms from the beaters. ) Set the kitchen timer to help you keep track of the time. The mixture will become fluffy and aerated.

With the mixer on low, add the flour mixture in 3 equal portions, alternating with the milk in 2 equal portions, beginning and ending with the flour. Add the flour and liquid ingredients in increments quickly; do not wait in between additions too long as you don't want to overmix the batter. (If the milk is cold, the batter will curdle slightly. It's ok. It will come together when you add the flour.)

WITH THE MIXER STILL ON LOW, add in extracts and beat for 30 seconds to 1 minute or until smooth. The batter should be thick and fluffy. Stop the mixer, and remove the bowl. With a large rubber spatula, give the batter ONE or TWO quick folds to incorporate any stray flour or milk left at the sides and bottom of the bowl. Then, STOP!

PhotoDraw77.jpg

~ The final batter should be light and fluffy. Be sure to scrape the bowl with a rubber spatula as directed in the step above! ~

Divide the batter in the prepared baking pans (should fill 1/2 full) and lighty smooth the tops. Bake for 40 to 45 minutes or until the top feels firm and gives slightly when touched and will shrink sslightly from the side of the pan. The cake will be slightly browned. If you insert a toothpick in the middle and remove, there should be a few moist crumbs attached, but not batter. The cakes will have a slight dome and small cracks on top right when it comes from the oven, but as the cakes cool, they will flatten on top and the tiny cracks will disappear.

PhotoDraw76.jpg

~ The cake will be slightly domed with tiny cracks when it first comes from the oven. ~

Remove cakes to cool on wire racks for 10 to 15 minutes and then unmold onto wire cake racks to cool throughly. Be careful, the cakes are delicate when warm.

PhotoDraw63.jpg

~ The cake layers will flatten as they cool. I took the cake layer from the pan when it was still too hot. Note a thin layer of the cake still left in the pan in the background of this picture...... I should have let the cake cool in the pan for 15 minutes instead of 10, and then unmolded it to the wire cake rack! :unsure: ~

Edited by Sarah Phillips (log)

Happy Baking! Sarah Phillips, President and Founder, http://www.baking911.com

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I had a tasting tonight with Sarah's cake and the cake that I use for my standard butter cake. Fifteen people tasted and rated each cake. They tasted each one plain and with a chocolate glaze on top. I had them use a 1 - 5 scale for taste, texture and appearance. The cake I've been using had a higher rating in all categories. My cake had an overall rating of 4.75 and Sarah's had an overall rating of 2.5.

Sarah's cake was easy to put together but it didn't seem to have the flavor and texture that I'm looking for. Several tasters noted on their sheets that the flavor reminded them of corn bread. One taster also thought the texture was reminiscent of corn bread. Also, I was a little disappointed in the shrinkage in Sarah's cake. When they came out of the oven, they had a nice height but by the time they had cooled they had shrunk quite a bit. Is this normal for this recipe?

I'm going to try to post pics of the cake. They're not the best pictures but hopefully they'll give you an idea of the difference in the two. The first one will be Sarah's and the second one mine.

gallery_10734_1575_37429.jpg

gallery_10734_1575_7668.jpg

So should I post the recipe that I use? Is anyone interested in trying it?

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So should I post the recipe that I use? Is anyone interested in trying it?

Yes, I would definitly be interested in trying it! I love it when someone is willing to do the research for me :smile: I haven't had much time to bake for fun lately and know one around here orders a yellow butter cake.

I'd like to know what everyones favorite filling or icing is to use with the yellow cake. The only time I've made one was to make a coconut cream filled cake with boiled icing.

Cheryl Brown

Dragonfly Desserts

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I had a tasting tonight with Sarah's cake and the cake that I use for my standard butter cake. Fifteen people tasted and rated each cake. They tasted each one plain and with a chocolate glaze on top. I had them use a 1 - 5 scale for taste, texture and appearance. The cake I've been using had a higher rating in all categories. My cake had an overall rating of 4.75 and Sarah's had an overall rating of 2.5.

Sarah's cake was easy to put together but it didn't seem to have the flavor and texture that I'm looking for. Several tasters noted on their sheets that the flavor reminded them of corn bread. One taster also thought the texture was reminiscent of corn bread. Also, I was a little disappointed in the shrinkage in Sarah's cake. When they came out of the oven, they had a nice height but by the time they had cooled they had shrunk quite a bit. Is this normal for this recipe?

Thanks for trying my cake recipe and having a cake testing! What a great idea!

It's not normal for my recipe to go through a significant shrinkage as it cools from the oven. The cake's top should settle into a flat cake layer as it cools, but the cake should not shrink a lot, as you describe. And, it's not normal for the cake to have a "cornbread-like" texture, either, as you said. I know the information is coming from me....but, these types of issues have to do with mixing... (coarse crumb, shrinkage) Perhaps, I need to modify the mixing instructions in my recipe...... http://baking911.com/cakes/problems.htm

For my own information.... What kind of flour did you use in my recipe? I'm just curious! And, is your recipe a white cake or yellow butter cake? I can't tell....For my own notes, have you ever used the mixing method before that you used in my recipe?

The Ultimate Butter Cake is supposed to be moist and "incredibly tender" as JeAnne posted in post #3......and denser, but not like a pound cake....

I have made Sarah's recipe several times over the past year since I discovered it and it is by far my favorite.  It has become my "standard" for die hard yellow cake birthday fans :D

It is incredibly tender with a great crumb and bakes up very evenly.  As a point of comparison, my favorite prior to finding this recipe was a recipe from Martha Stewart.  However IMO Martha Stewart's is much denser and comes off more "pound cake" like.

JeAnne

But, as we know, everyone has their own point of view .....Thanks again for taking the time to try my recipe. I appreciate it! ~

Edited by Sarah Phillips (log)

Happy Baking! Sarah Phillips, President and Founder, http://www.baking911.com

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Deleted

Edited by kdl1221
Delete (log)

~K

Thank you as well for the conversational haitus. I generally refrain from speach during gustation. There are those who attempt both at the same time. I find it coarse and vulgar.

Big Dan Teague

O Brother, Where Art Thou?

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I made Sarah's butter cake today and it was fantastic--tender crumb, rich without being too heavy (like a pound cake). I used Canadian AP flour and it still turned out OK. The cake took an extra 15 minutes in the oven because I topped it with a thick layer of apricot crumble mixture (flour, sugar, walnuts, rolled oats, butter).

I'm really happy with this cake and I'll use it as my standard butter cake recipe from now on. Thanks for posting! :biggrin:

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I just wanted to add that my butter cake looks exactly like Sarah's, so I didn't post a pic. The only difference was that the edge was a bit browner, since I don't have light colored pans. (I use non-stick 9" Cuisinart pans.)

I made a second cake today to give to my best friend's parents. This time I flavoured it with almond extract, and did the same apricot mixture. From the looks of it, the cake turned out as nicely as the first time. Really happy with this recipe. :smile:

Edited by Ling (log)
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Alright everyone, tonight I made Sarah Phillips recipe. I was very careful. I have a 350 watt KA so I just dropped a speed on each step. I followed her recipe *exactly*.

1. Every step went smoothly according to her directions.

2. It baked in exactly 40 minutes.

3. Although I have no pictures I can tell you it looks just like the pictures. (I love it when that happens :wink: .)

4. It smells better than any cake I've made. Its very fragrant. Even the batter smelled great, and even before the vanilla.

5. Upon removal from the oven it begin to flatten the slight doming and pull away from the sides of the pan.

6. It also looks very moist. Not at all dry like some are.

7. It rose beautifully to the top of my 9-inch pans.

I baked this for my husbands birthday dinner tomorrow. Therefore, I can't tell you the results of the tasting until tomorrow. I will get to have about 10-12 opinions. They are unfortunately boxed cake people, but I have been opening their eyes hopefully. Anyway, I'll check back in tomorrow night.

-Becca

www.porterhouse.typepad.com

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I'd love to try Sarah's recipe and get in on the fun, BUT it calls for two 9-inch rounds. I have the pans, but unfortunately my oven is too small for me to fit both pans on the same shelf, and I've never had any luck in trying to put the two layers on different racks in this oven. Things either burn or don't get done, or I spend so much time rotating and transferring that my oven loses all its heat and things don't bake properly.

Has anyone tried using Sarah's recipe in 8-inch rounds? Those will fit in my oven, if I let the pans touch each other.

MelissaH

MelissaH

Oswego, NY

Chemist, writer, hired gun

Say this five times fast: "A big blue bucket of blue blueberries."

foodblog1 | kitchen reno | foodblog2

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I made Sarah's butter cake today and it was fantastic--tender crumb, rich without being too heavy (like a pound cake). I used Canadian AP flour and it still turned out OK. The cake took an extra 15 minutes in the oven because I topped it with a thick layer of apricot crumble mixture (flour, sugar, walnuts, rolled oats, butter).

I'm really happy with this cake and I'll use it as my standard butter cake recipe from now on. Thanks for posting!  :biggrin:

Thanks and you're welcome, Ling! Enjoy! :wub:

And, I do love the idea of the topping you made for it. Do share your recipe. I'd love to try it! YUM! YUM! :wink:

Edited by Sarah Phillips (log)

Happy Baking! Sarah Phillips, President and Founder, http://www.baking911.com

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I'd love to try Sarah's recipe and get in on the fun, BUT it calls for two 9-inch rounds. I have the pans, but unfortunately my oven is too small for me to fit both pans on the same shelf, and I've never had any luck in trying to put the two layers on different racks in this oven. Things either burn or don't get done, or I spend so much time rotating and transferring that my oven loses all its heat and things don't bake properly.

Has anyone tried using Sarah's recipe in 8-inch rounds? Those will fit in my oven, if I let the pans touch each other.

MelissaH

Hi, Melissa H,

The cake bakes best in 2, 9-inch pans. Crowding the oven with 2, 8-inch pans isn't a great idea when baking cakes, anyway....

So, you have two options, mix the batter for 2, 9-inch pans. Bake one layer at a time. Place the batter in both pans, and while one bakes, put the other in the fridge. When the first layer is done baking, put the second one in the oven to bake! Don't let the batter from the second layer sit at room temperature -- it contains dairy products which are perishable and the chemical leaveners in the recipe (baking powder) start reacting immediately whern moistened in the recipe. The cold from the refrigerator will slow its reaction, but FOR BEST RESULTS, bake the layer right when the first one comes from the oven......

Or, make half of a recipe. The recipe calls for 3 large eggs. So, you'll need 1 1/2 large eggs. Do you know how to halve one large egg? For half an egg, crack an egg in a small bowl and beat it. Let the bubbles subside. One large egg = 4 tablespoons. Measure 2 tablespoons = 1/2 a large egg! It may be hard to measure because the whites in eggs are slippery, but do the best you can. Save the rest in the refrigerator and toss later in an omelet or scrambled eggs!

When baking 1, 9-inch pan, keep the oven temperature the same as called for in the recipe and the baking time should remain CLOSE to the same, BUT watch the baking time carefully....sometimes the cake layer may be done 5 to 7 minutes faster! DON'T open the oven door all the way to check because you may cause the layer to have a slight dip in the center, which it won't recover from if it's almost baked...When you open an oven door, the oven's temp drops some 50 to 100 degrees F!

:smile:

Happy Baking! Sarah Phillips, President and Founder, http://www.baking911.com

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Alright everyone, tonight I made Sarah Phillips recipe. I was very careful. I have a 350 watt KA so I just dropped a speed on each step. I followed her recipe *exactly*.

1. Every step went smoothly according to her directions.

2. It baked in exactly 40 minutes.

3. Although I have no pictures I can tell you it looks just like the pictures. (I love it when that happens :wink: .)

4. It smells better than any cake I've made. Its very fragrant. Even the batter smelled great, and even before the vanilla.

5. Upon removal from the oven it begin to flatten the slight doming and pull away from the sides of the pan.

6. It also looks very moist. Not at all dry like some are.

7. It rose beautifully to the top of my 9-inch pans.

I baked this for my husbands birthday dinner tomorrow. Therefore, I can't tell you the results of the tasting until tomorrow. I will get to have about 10-12 opinions. They are unfortunately boxed cake people, but I have been opening their eyes hopefully. Anyway, I'll check back in tomorrow night.

I'm anxious to hear everyone's feedback. Thanks for taking the time to bake my recipe! :cool:

And, Happy Birthday to hubbie! :smile:

Edited by Sarah Phillips (log)

Happy Baking! Sarah Phillips, President and Founder, http://www.baking911.com

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    • By Darienne
      In hopes of sleeping better, etc, etc, I have currently given up gluten, dairy and now sugar.  The gluten and dairy pose no problems...the sugar does.  I am not happy using mannitol or erythritol or any of those artificial sweeteners...they give me severe digestive problems.   But I can tolerate stevia very nicely.  The only problem is that there doesn't seem to be much sweetened with this ingredient.
       
      I do have a carob/coconut oil/peanut butter/stevia candy of sorts.  I don't really like it all that much, but it does work.  That's about it.
       
      Has anyone any recipes for desserts using stevia?  Thanks.
    • By Janet Taylor
      Ever since Todd talked making cupcakes I have been cupcake crazy. Although, I am not a cake maker but more of a pie person.
      My first dessert that I love that I make is my Coconut Cream Pie w/heavy whipped cream. I don't use low fat anything and probably angioplasties is necessary after this baby.
      My second is Peach Cobbler w/rich vanilla ice cream. I never met a cobbler that I didn't like, but peach is my favorite.
      I don't make these often because I wouldn't be able to get through the front door if I did.
      How about yours?
      .....Janet
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