NYC Vietnamese/Chinese food vs. Toronto

[Nathan]

don't forget Minneapolis!

[Fat Guy]

Texas, too. But I really wouldn't write off Northern New Jersey or present-day non-Chinatown New York City. The Baxter street places achieve a certain level of mediocrity, punctuated by occasional highlights, but they're not the whole New York Vietnamese scene. There are also at least three good places I've tried in Elmhurst, Flushing and someplace way out in Brooklyn, not that I can keep their names straight.

[kiliki]

Just curious - how do you rank Seattle's Saigon Bistro on Jackson in the International District. Do you find it to be among the better of the Vietnamese restaurants in Seattle?

I don't. I've had some decent things there but it's not even close to being in the same league as Green Leaf or Tamarind Tree (everyone's favorites), or Monsoon or Bambuza (more upscale choices).

1. A general lack of Cilantro. A tiny bit in the Pho, none in anything else.

2. More Basil than usual.

3. Not very salty.

4. No use of soy sauce.

5. No use of a thickening agent in the sauces.

6. Sauces were thin, and used sparingly.

That sounds like Vietnamese food to me! I've never had Vietnamese food that DID have thick sauces (or many sauces at all, besides dipping sauce on the side), lots of soy sauce, salt, or cilantro...that sounds like Chinese food to me (maybe not the cilantro).

Edited October 31, 2007 by kiliki (log)

[bethpageblack]

My sister, who's living NY, told me both Vietnamese and Chinese food over there sucks a$$. On the other hand, Japanese and upmarket restaurants are of a higher quality than most other places.

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Of course, since she's from Sydney. Yes, I concur with your sister that Chinese and Vietnamese food in New York is not up to par. You should have seen the spread we had eating this past week with my aunts and uncles coming from NY to Guangzhou. The food was amazing and 5x cheaper than NY prices.

No pics, sorry! Should take some next time - and I promise to bring the camera when I go for Chiu Chow food.

[raji]

Well you can't go and compare anywhere outside to anywhere inside China...

Boy, I could post some pictures of Guangzhou, the feasts I had there....

[bethpageblack]

Well you can't go and compare anywhere outside to anywhere inside China...

Boy, I could post some pictures of Guangzhou, the feasts I had there....

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I know we're straying off the topic geographically here, but IMO the Chinese food in Toronto, Vancouver and Sydney is better than New York, at least for Cantonese food. It's just more authentic, and the ingredients are fresher. Cali I think is better than NY as well, but not as good as the aforementioned three cities. With all the HK people emigrating to Canada and Australia over the past 20 years, it just seemed like all the better chefs went to those cities instead of New York. With all the immigration, the demand for better ingredients and higher, more authentic quality food has risen in those cities. Even a simple wonton noodle soup from any joint in Richmond Hill, Scarborough or Markham (suburb of Toronto) would be better than anything offered in NYC.

Whenever I have relatives or friends go to NY, they always complain about the Chinese food. My family members try every single new Cantonese resto that pops up, but they just can't seem to get it right, unfortunately.

Eh, can't win them all. NY is much better than those other cities in terms of other dining experiences, so it's a wash.

Again going off-topic, I do have to say that NY has better sushi than those other places, and I will include HK as well.

[nakji]

Is Bo Luc Lac considered dumbed down Vietnamese food? I've only ever had it in Vietnam...in Vietnamese restaurants...surrounded by Vietnamese people who were also eating Bo Luc Lac. Granted, I did all my serious eating in the North...

[raji]

Whenever I have relatives or friends go to NY, they always complain about the Chinese food.  My family members try every single new Cantonese resto that pops up, but they just can't seem to get it right, unfortunately. 

Eh, can't win them all.  NY is much better than those other cities in terms of other dining experiences, so it's a wash.

Again going off-topic, I do have to say that NY has better sushi than those other places, and I will include HK as well.

I'd hardly call it a wash.... ... NY simply will always be the pre-eminent destination for international dining.

I've eaten some of the best Chinese food in those cities, and yes, what they all have to their advantage is a more recent and vibrant immigrant population, and such a large ratio that it helps create a stage for high-end gourmet Chinese food which is for the most part non-existent in NY. This also makes your average takeout loads better.

NY suffers from a seemingly endless stream of horrible cookie-cutter takeout joints staffed by recent Fujianese workers who aren't exactly the best example of Chinese culinary tradition. So the vast majority are throaways like these. BUT, if you look hard enough, you can find places almost as good or just as good as the cities you mention. So I say the GOOD Chinese food in NYC is a lot harder to find, rather than a blanket statement like "Chinese food in NY sucks", which just isn't true.

If you take the Chinatowns in Flushing and the LES, you'll find fine examples of cooking from all of the provinces, Taiwan and other SE Asian countries, including yes, awfully great Cantonese cooking. And there are gourmet places as good as your cities - Ping's comes to mind.

[raji]

Is Bo Luc Lac considered dumbed down Vietnamese food? I've only ever had it in Vietnam...in Vietnamese restaurants...surrounded by Vietnamese people who were also eating Bo Luc Lac. Granted, I did all my serious eating in the North...

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No, that wasn't what I was implying. Saigon Grill's menu is less than adventurous nor is their spicing. Their Bo Luc Lac is delicious, and perhaps authentic.

[Fat Guy]

I'm not sure what would make bo luc lac authentic or inauthentic. It's just about the simplest dish out there, and there are so many acceptable variants that it's hard to imagine an inauthentic version short of one made with salmon and chocolate. Beef cubes, a basic Vietnamese fish-sauce-based marinade, some greens, etc. -- it's no big deal.

There are a lot of dishes on the Saigon Grill menu that suck, because that's what people want. They must be the largest purchaser of bell peppers in the city -- enough with the bell peppers in every dish already. But the dishes that they do well they do exceptionally well.

Statements like "New York Vietnamese food isn't good" or "New York Chinese food isn't good" are rarely accurate. Certainly, the average example of any cuisine -- Chinese, deli, sushi -- is going to be bad in any city. But there is excellent Chinese and Vietnamese food to be found in New York. It's a question of knowing both where to go and what to order, as is typically the case with Asian restaurants in America. I've had Asian food in nine provinces of Canada. I know what it's like. Toronto does not have better Asian food than the best New York places in any category I know of. Vancouver is the one place in Canada that outshines New York, in a couple of categories of Chinese food -- not all categories, however. The Sichuan food in New York, for example, is superior to anything I've had in Vancouver. I'm sure Sydney has great examples of everything Asian, since it's basically in Asia.

The place you really want to be in North America for all this stuff is Los Angeles, by virtue of sheer population density of the relevant ethnic groups, but New York also acquits itself well on account of large Asian populations and a sophisticated client base. You have to be willing to seek out good Asian food in New York, however. That means a willingness to travel to the non-Manhattan boroughs and to Northern New Jersey. The farthest you can travel in the New York metro area is about half the distance you'd travel for the average meal in LA, but New Yorkers aren't as calibrated as Angelenos to that sort of commuting. I would suggest, however, that anybody who hasn't sampled a variety of Asian cuisines extensively in Northern New Jersey simply does not have an adequate basis for comparison or generalization.

[Nathan]

for Cantonese or Hong Kong style I'll take Vancouver.

but agreed that I haven't had Sichuan food of the NY level in Vancouver.

I've been in Toronto many times but haven't had Chinese there.

[raji]

for Cantonese or Hong Kong style I'll take Vancouver.

but agreed that I haven't had Sichuan food of the NY level in Vancouver.

I've been in Toronto many times but haven't had Chinese there.

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Chinese is very good in Toronto, but it's not like it's a revelation like VC...

VC is HK east, damn well better be that good. I find it more remarkable, or unique to NY, that you can find so many provinces represented so well in NYC when it is literally half a world away.

[Pan]

Well you can't go and compare anywhere outside to anywhere inside China...

Boy, I could post some pictures of Guangzhou, the feasts I had there....

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Yes I can! Chinese food I've had in Kuala Lumpur, Penang, Bangkok, Singapore, and (perhaps to just a slightly lesser extent) Ipoh holds its own very nicely against any part of China I've been to!

[Fat Guy]

One also has to bear in mind the cultural disruption caused by Maoism. For much of the 20th Century, Chinese cuisine was preserved and advanced in the diaspora.

[Alchemist]

I love Thai Son on just south of Canal on I can never remember if it is Bayard or baxter that runs north/south. #114 are these wonderful crispy,moist, flavorful porkchops served with lettuce, rice, mint, and hot sauce to make wiked little porkey, sweet, spicey poppers that are hot and cold in just the right way. #91 is carmelized pork. Do I need to say anything else? Wait ,wait I know. They take pork and then they CARMELIZE IT!!! I then have to get the 7 color rainbow for dessert. I have had it all over and I'm not sure I like it but the textures so intrigue me it is a must have where ever it is available.

And then you have to go to Pings for Sweet Beef Jerky. Yes it's meaty petite fours.

[raji]

Yes I can! Chinese food I've had in Kuala Lumpur, Penang, Bangkok, Singapore, and (perhaps to just a slightly lesser extent) Ipoh holds its own very nicely against any part of China I've been to!

I don't think I've stayed long enough in any of those places to seek out Chinese food, although you definitely see the influence... guess I was missing out! Those are all places with significant Chinese populations, aren't they...

Well I guess I goofed myself... the best Chinese food I've had has always been in HK and Taiwan, until recently both outside of China

[bethpageblack]

Whenever I have relatives or friends go to NY, they always complain about the Chinese food.  My family members try every single new Cantonese resto that pops up, but they just can't seem to get it right, unfortunately. 

Eh, can't win them all.  NY is much better than those other cities in terms of other dining experiences, so it's a wash.

Again going off-topic, I do have to say that NY has better sushi than those other places, and I will include HK as well.

I'd hardly call it a wash.... ... NY simply will always be the pre-eminent destination for international dining.

I've eaten some of the best Chinese food in those cities, and yes, what they all have to their advantage is a more recent and vibrant immigrant population, and such a large ratio that it helps create a stage for high-end gourmet Chinese food which is for the most part non-existent in NY. This also makes your average takeout loads better.

NY suffers from a seemingly endless stream of horrible cookie-cutter takeout joints staffed by recent Fujianese workers who aren't exactly the best example of Chinese culinary tradition. So the vast majority are throaways like these. BUT, if you look hard enough, you can find places almost as good or just as good as the cities you mention. So I say the GOOD Chinese food in NYC is a lot harder to find, rather than a blanket statement like "Chinese food in NY sucks", which just isn't true.

If you take the Chinatowns in Flushing and the LES, you'll find fine examples of cooking from all of the provinces, Taiwan and other SE Asian countries, including yes, awfully great Cantonese cooking. And there are gourmet places as good as your cities - Ping's comes to mind.

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I agree with you about the cookie cutter establishments and wanna-bes. They have definitely lowered the quality level of Chinese food almost to the point of no return.

[bethpageblack]

Toronto does not have better Asian food than the best New York places in any category I know of.

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I'd have to disagree with you on this - the Toronto Cantonese cuisine scene IMO is way ahead of New York, especially with respect to dim sum. Their dim sum is much lighter and less heavy handed on the oil. IMO, NY dim sum is more old fashioned and there is more oil, more muddling of flavors. The dim sum in Canada is more reflective on dim sum in Asia than NY's dim sum.

I remember my family looking forward to the emigration of chefs from HK when a lot of the HK population immigrated to the US and Canada between 89 and 97. Too bad most of them did not end up in NY.

[Fat Guy]

I'm not aware of any restaurant in Toronto that's serving dim sum at the level of Chinatown Brasserie in New York. Hong-Kong chef Joe Ng is arguably the best dim-sum chef in North America right now. Guy Lieu from Dim Sum Go Go (also from Hong Kong) is also doing some impressive stuff in the lighter, modern style. Several years ago I had the best dim sum of my life in Singapore, at the Golden Peony, and thought I'd never have anything that good in New York -- but the best places in New York are now operating at that level. When I ate at Joe Ng's earlier place, in Brooklyn, a few years ago I knew the times were changing. Dim Sum Dynasty in New Jersey also operates at a high level. Sure, there are plenty of heavy, old-school, steam-cart dim sum places in Manhattan's Chinatown. And New York doesn't have the depth of excellent dim sum that Vancouver has -- that's inevitable given the population. But the best places in New York are as good as what I've had in Vancouver and better than anything I know of in Toronto. I may not be totally up to date on Toronto, but unless there have been some phenomenal new openings in the past few years then I can't see the argument for Toronto having superior dim sum.

[raji]

I tend to agree with FG. When there are institutions like Golden Unicorn, 888, Jin Fong, etc., serving the same authentic/tired menus for the past 20 years, it's easy to forget about all the new and exciting places that exist. Granted, you go to Golden Unicorn and you know exactly what you are going to get, but that doesn't mean the art and service of dim sum can evolve and enjoy better ingredients and preparations.

The best dimsum I ever had was in HK, after reading about and posting in the HK forum here, and boy was that a revelation. A football-field sized layout of tables and chef's stations, and everything is being cooked and prepped to order for you individually... not playing beat-the-clock with angry cart-pushers.

I didn't always realize that anyone who could, I guess, got the heck out of dodge before the handover. Well, their loss is our gain.

FG where is Joe Ng now?

[weinoo]

FG where is Joe Ng now?

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Not FG , but I believe Joe is currently both the executive and Dim Sum chef at Chinatown Brasserie.

[Bueno]

I'm not aware of any restaurant in Toronto that's serving dim sum at the level of Chinatown Brasserie in New York. Hong-Kong chef Joe Ng is arguably the best dim-sum chef in North America right now. Guy Lieu from Dim Sum Go Go (also from Hong Kong) is also doing some impressive stuff in the lighter, modern style. Several years ago I had the best dim sum of my life in Singapore, at the Golden Peony, and thought I'd never have anything that good in New York -- but the best places in New York are now operating at that level. When I ate at Joe Ng's earlier place, in Brooklyn, a few years ago I knew the times were changing. Dim Sum Dynasty in New Jersey also operates at a high level. Sure, there are plenty of heavy, old-school, steam-cart dim sum places in Manhattan's Chinatown. And New York doesn't have the depth of excellent dim sum that Vancouver has -- that's inevitable given the population. But the best places in New York are as good as what I've had in Vancouver and better than anything I know of in Toronto. I may not be totally up to date on Toronto, but unless there have been some phenomenal new openings in the past few years then I can't see the argument for Toronto having superior dim sum.

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Lai Wah Heen.

But Steve, because you've eaten around Toronto once (correct?) does not make you an expert on what the city has to offer. I've eaten Chinese in NYC twice now, and there is no way I would consider myself in a position to make any determinations as to where it sits on the grand scale of cities in North America. I'm confused as to how you feel bold enough to do that? Genuinely -- I'm not being difficult for the sake of it. I get the sense that it's more a matter of hometown pride than anything that is fueling your comments regarding NYC. I'm certain you’re an expert when it comes to that style of cuisine in your own city, but I don't think you qualify as such in the cities you're using in your comparisons. Fair shakes all around, right?

As I mentioned, I can only base my view on hearsay, and I've heard MANY well-traveled and very experienced foodies place Vancouver at the top of the list in terms of variety and quality of Chinese food in North America, with Toronto and NYC being to close to call in third place just behind LA. I've heard those same people put dim sum in Toronto at the top of their list. And easily.

[Fat Guy]

I've eaten around Toronto three times in the past ten years -- not extensively, not enough to be an expert, but enough to have context -- and Vancouver at least five times. I've also had Asian food in nine of Canada's ten provinces. I just finished writing a book on Asian dining in North America. I have a good track record of saying when something in my home town is bad -- I'm not exactly an apologist for New York. I think I have decent perspective on this issue. And I don't disagree with the general assessment of Vancouver and Toronto (with a huge gap between the two). However, I disagree with the general assessment of New York. I know a lot of the so-called experts who make these judgments and I know they're operating on outdated assumptions, haven't been to New Jersey and don't really know the New York Chinese-food scene outside of Chinatown. If people who have been to Chinatown Brasserie, Dim Sum Go Go and a variety of Chinese restaurants in Northern New Jersey want to tell me that Toronto has better dim sum than New York, I'm listening. Otherwise the verdict is as credible as a judgment arrived at by visiting New York's Little Italy, eating at a few red-sauce food factories, and proclaiming New York Italian weak without ever visiting Babbo, A Voce, Alto or Fiamma.

Here's Ed Levine on Joe Ng:

after another phenomenal dim sum meal at Chinatown Brasserie I feel more certain than ever that there are no dim sum chefs in New York (and maybe America) better than CB's Joe Ng.

. . . .

Ng is a dumpling auteur, a dim sum artist, the Matisse of dough. Each dumpling, fried or pan-fried or steamed, is a miniature bit of dumpling perfection. His wrappers are the most delicate imaginable.

. . . .

I've never had dim sum in Shanghai, but Gail Greene has, and she told me yesterday that Joe Ng's dim sum creations are as good or better than anything she has had there.

http://edlevineeats.seriouseats.com/2007/0...n-chinatow.html

Edited November 4, 2007 by Fat Guy (log)

[Pan]

Fat Guy, one quibble: New Jersey is not New York, so I don't think that it's a viable argument that because x and y are good in Northern New Jersey, that says anything at all about New York. As you know, few New Yorkers go to New Jersey for Chinese food or for any other reason than to visit relatives or something.

And bethpageblack, are you actually saying that the quality of Chinese food in New York has gone DOWN in the last x-number of years? I would have to disagree! I believe that the number and variety of good Chinese restaurants in Manhattan, Flushing, and Brooklyn has gone UP and the standard of Chinese food in New York is better than ever, though certainly with lots of room for improvement. As for cookie-cutter places, that's nothing new! The thing that's new is how many places are NOT cookie-cutter! How fortunate that we live in a time when there is a chain of Grand Sichuans, for example.

[Fat Guy]

Pan, when I was working on an article about ethnic food-shopping in Northern New Jersey, the first thing I did was count license plates in the parking lots of Mitsuwa, Hanahreum (now H-Mart) and Foodmart International. I assure you, plenty of people are reverse-commuting from the city to get to these places. Ask serious Japanese-American cooks in Manhattan where they shop for food and in a healthy percentage of cases you'll hear Mitsuwa. There's even a free shuttle bus from Manhattan to Mitsuwa. Another example, Cecil and his entire waitstaff at China 46 commuted every day from Flushing.

I think it's accurate to say that few white people from New York go to Northern New Jersey for Asian food (though plenty go to shop at Ikea), and that even the intrepid-foodie crowd has largely missed the boat on New Jersey, but tons of Asian-Americans do it as a matter of course because they know, for example, that there's no South Indian restaurant in New York that can approach what Moksha in Edison is doing.

I personally eat Asian food of all kinds in New Jersey all the time. The driving distance from my block to Mitsuwa is a hair under 10 miles, and it's 10.9 to the China 46 parking lot -- people in Los Angeles wouldn't think twice about driving three times that distance to eat -- and I live on the East Side so my commute is longer than it would be from the Upper West Side. New York City has a lot less of a car culture than LA, but there are approximately 2,000,000 cars owned by New York City residents.

Northern New Jersey is New York just as much as Richmond is Vancouver. Any definition you use -- MSA, CSA, UA -- they all include the relevant chunk of Northern New Jersey.