custard powder ( creme de poudre)

[tan319]

I'm using 'Lion' brand, have had it since i got the Ducasse 'SPOON' book but lately have been slipping it in here and there.

Lately I've been making Pineapple Upside Down Cake in a skillet, at home.

Using different spices, techniques for the sugar, etc.

Today I threw in a bit of custard powder, along with five spice powder and ginger.

The batter tasted just like a cake donut, awesome.

I know a lot of chefs like to kick up their pastry cream with it, do any of you?

[jackal10]

Must be BIRD'S

A while ago we did a test between a classic creme anglais and a custard powder one. Little difference, and even less with a creme pat...

[FWED]

If this is the same thing as "Elsay" cream powder, and I suspect it is, then we used it in a Pistachio cream with creme fraiche during the five day chocolate class at the World Pastry Forum. If I remember correct chef Canonne said we could substitute an equal weight of one half powdered sugar and one half pastry flour.

[tan319]

It could have been Elsay but it shouldn't be mixed up with one of those "cream cake" mixes that Patisfrance or even Dawn makes.

Maybe they're called Elfroy?

We're talking custard powder. Yes, I suppose Birds could be used, that's probably the original custard powder for "English cream" that the UK came up with.

Ok, I just looked up a Pistachio Almond Cream recipe for a "Tarte Fruits De Provence" that FPS does that indeed uses Elsay pastry cream powder.

Did the chefs teaching your class use this for many other recipes, Fred?

It's all over that Ducasse/Roberts 'Grand Livre de Patisserie et Desserts' book too.

[Wendy DeBord]

I bought a bag of the Elsay brand custard powder a couple years ago. I kept seeing recipes that used it in my European books and I had to buy some so I could try those recipes. I didn't do much with it. It seemed at the time the way the recipes were using it was like adding cornstarch to a custard for extra stability/density.

But I still have a big bag of it........so any further thoughts on the topic would be great......I need to use up my supply.

How did it change the cakes texture?.......was it dense like a cake donut?

[nightscotsman]

Is custard powder the same as pastry cream powder? If so, we make all our pastry cream with it (instead of corn starch), but nothing else as far as I know.

[jgarner53]

We make all of our pastry cream at work with Elsay as well. But that's all we use it for.

[FWED]

Chef Canonne used the Elsay cream powder in only one recipe but his assistant Chef Sebastien Thieffine used a similar cream powder in a Praline Cream that was part of his demo at the World Pastry Forum trade show. The cream powder was a Felchlin -Swiss product. Both of these chefs told us we could use an equal weight made up of 50 50 corn starch to pastry flour. Yes I just realized that I said powdered sugar in my original reply but that was wrong. It should have been corn starch. The chefs said it was to give the cream added stability and they said that the commercial products may contain other flavoring elements and sometimes coloring agents.

[schneich]

where´s the beef folks ???

isnt that schtuff just starch and artificial vanilla flavoring

my fresh creme patissier tastes a whole lot better then that....

does ducasse really use it ???=

mahlzeit

t.

[jgarner53]

Believe me, I was as surprised as anyone that we use Elsay considering that everything else in our bakery is true-blue - real butter in the puff and croissants, etc. Except for the cost of the vanilla (which we use plenty of in other applications), I can't imagine it would make much difference to the bottom line.

[tan319]

where´s the beef folks ???

isnt that schtuff just starch and artificial vanilla flavoring 

my fresh creme patissier tastes a whole lot better then that....

does ducasse really use it ???=

mahlzeit

t.

←

Yes, those chefs do use it.

As fred said above, it probably helps stabilize the mixture a bit, and my guess is it also adds some extra depth in flavour.

Ducasses chefs ( mainly Frederic Roberts) uses it all over his books, IN CONJUNCTION, it has to be said, with the other ingredients that would be in a pastry cream, or a creme anglaise.

In other words, you see a creme patisserie recipe in a Ducasse book, it is usually kicked up a notch with some creme poudre, as well as anglaises to be used in mousses, etc.

Olivier Bajard recipes do the same, FPS ones, as already noted.

Not that much different then using powdered egg whites along with fresh in a pro recipe.

Re: Using Elsay as a pastry creme like jenny does in a high volume bakery is just a reality.

It's a good product.

If I was using it as a full on pastry cream I would at least flavor it a bit with some vanilla paste or something.

Wendy,

It just gave the cake a bit more depth, something like that.

On tonights tasting I thought it had a bit of a cake donut taste again.

My wife didn't.

[cbarre02]

Great for chiboust. I like it as a stabilzer, unlike cornstarch it dosen't add a raw starch taste

[nightscotsman]

where´s the beef folks ???

isnt that schtuff just starch and artificial vanilla flavoring 

my fresh creme patissier tastes a whole lot better then that....

does ducasse really use it ???=

mahlzeit

t.

←

Yes, those chefs do use it.

As fred said above, it probably helps stabilize the mixture a bit, and my guess is it also adds some extra depth in flavour.

Ducasses chefs ( mainly Frederic Roberts) uses it all over his books, IN CONJUNCTION, it has to be said, with the other ingredients that would be in a pastry cream, or a creme anglaise.

In other words, you see a creme patisserie recipe in a Ducasse book, it is usually kicked up a notch with some creme poudre, as well as anglaises to be used in mousses, etc.

Olivier Bajard recipes do the same, FPS ones, as already noted.

Not that much different then using powdered egg whites along with fresh in a pro recipe.

Re: Using Elsay as a pastry creme like jenny does in a high volume bakery is just a reality.

It's a good product.

If I was using it as a full on pastry cream I would at least flavor it a bit with some vanilla paste or something.

Wendy,

It just gave the cake a bit more depth, something like that.

On tonights tasting I thought it had a bit of a cake donut taste again.

My wife didn't.

←

Of COURSE we don't use the pastry cream powder by itself. It's a replacement for corn starch (or the more old-fashioned flour) in a regular pastry cream recipe along with whole milk, egg yolks, sugar and vanilla beans (we use a LOT of vanilla beans). My understanding is the pastry cream powder is a mixture of starch (mostly corn starch), milk powder, vanilla, and a bit of yellow color. It makes a smoother, more stable pastry cream that has a cleaner taste. We ran out once and had to substitute corn starch in our regular recipe and you could tell the difference. The powder also thickened more than the same amount of corn starch.

[pastrymama]

Is the creme de poudre that is referred to here the instant-mix with water kind or the cook with water or milk kind. I tried what I have-Elfroy instant mix with water in my regular pastry cream recipe instead of the cornstarch and it didn't thicken the pastry cream enough at all. My eggs curdled and I had to put it in a blender and strain it. When cold it was more like a creme anglaise. When using the cornstarch the pastry cream is very thick when cold. Could someone explain further. Thanks,Marilyn

[Wendy DeBord]

I'll have to look at the bag I have at work..........but I'm thinking it's not labeled as 'instant'. I'm confused a little, in that you added water. I can't recall any of the pastry cream recipes I've come across calling for pastry powder also having added water.

Usually it's a somewhat standard pastry cream: yolks and or eggs, cream, sugar and flour or cornstarch, flavorings, plus the pastry cream powder. All the time ignoring any instructions on the pastry cream bag.

Not making the pastry cream powder as a recipe on the bag might offer (which might be reconsituting the pastry cream powder with water). Are you saying you did that Pastrymama, then you added it to your regular from scratch pastry cream?

[pastrymama]

When I said pastry cream powder, instant made with water, I was referring to the way it is listed in my catalog. There are two kinds listed, one you don't cook, just add water and stir up, like instant pudding and the other you add water or milk to and cook it.

What I did was used the instant powder instead of the cornstarch called for in my pastry cream recipe, with the milk and eggs and cooked it until it boiled for a couple of minutes, just like I make it with cornstarch. It didn't get as thick as with cornstarch and the eggs curdled. Normally with cornstarch it is nice and thick and creamy then I add the butter and vanilla. That is why I am wondering if the pastry cream powder being used by others is the kind you would normally cook.

[Wendy DeBord]

That is why I am wondering if the pastry cream powder being used by others is the kind you would normally cook.

←

Yes, I'm using the type you need to cook, Elsay brand. I used it this past week with my normal pastry cream recipe. I took out a percentage of flour (I use flour) and used Elsay in it's place. It was REALLY thick, bordering on too thick.

I wonder what's in the instant Elsay thats so different. I've never looked at a box of instant pudding..........but perhaps the action of heating it cancels out the thickening powers? A cold set thickener verses a hot set................

[Lochina]

Where can one purchase custard powder in the U.S.? Many of Nigella Lawson's dessert recipes in "Feast" call for it, and I'd like to get some. Thanks.

[schneich]

can someone who owns the stuff that ducasse uses please post a complete ingredient list, as its virtually impossible to get the stuff in germany. and i really want to know what this is about...

need this stuff to be cooked, or is it cold processed.... ??

cheers

t.

Edited July 26, 2005 by schneich (log)

[tan319]

The stuff I'm talking about needs to be cooked IF you're using as a creme anglaise.

Ducasse book basically uses it as a "booster". I would say the same for any FPS recipes.

In those recipes it's usually added to the yolks or eggs with the sugar before tempering. etc.

RE: Lawson recipes: I would look in the grocery store for 'Birds' English custard mix for her recipes.

It's a pretty well stocked item, I would think.

If not easily found in a major chain grocer, look for an English provisions store or maybe even Whole Food or Wild Oats, Trader Joes, that ilk.

I'll try to list ingredients later, my can isn't with me.

Also, those Elfroy mixes, I know there are some cold process ones and indeed, heating that stuff up I don't think would be wise.

I'm pretty sure Patisfrance makes a cold process gelatine.

Used to see a French guy use it to set up his Key Lime Pies.

[bripastryguy]

I use a product called "Freeze -Thaw" Cream powder made by Caravan. You place 6 qts water in a pot with 4 qts water (I through in some vanilla paste) bring to a boil. I mix 2 pounds of the powder with 2 quarts cold water. Add it to the boiling sugar water mix. Bring back to a blurp (not a real rolling boil as it will burn and stick on the bottom) Then I pour the mix into my 20qt hobart with paddle on speed 1. I then add 2 pounds butter. This product tastes as good as my scratch creme patisserie and lasts ahell of alot longer. I tweak it with the use of different fruit purees, change sugar to brown or maple, etc... Really a good commercial product. I am really against all these "fake" pastry items but some of them work.

[tan319]

OK,

The ingredients for this 'Lion' brand custard powder ( London Food Factory Product, Hong Kong) are...

Corn Starch

Modified Corn Starch

Artificial & Natural Flavourings

Colourings (Yellow #5 & 6)

Mono and Di-Glycerides E471 as an emulsifier

Xanthan Gum as a stabilizer.

Salt

[schneich]

OK,

The ingredients for this 'Lion' brand custard powder ( London Food Factory Product, Hong Kong) are...

Corn Starch

Modified Corn Starch

Artificial & Natural Flavourings

Colourings (Yellow #5 & 6)

Mono and Di-Glycerides E471 as an emulsifier

Xanthan Gum as a stabilizer.

Salt

←

sounds really yuck !!!!!

[schneich]

obvioulsy its the xanthan gum that makes the finished product more "stable" so you can throw it in the frigde for days , and the artificial flavorings makes the finished product taste "better" or should i say stronger...

have we come thus far ???

its obvious that for a lot of pro´s here (including ducasse) the chem factory stuff tastes better than the real fresh stuff...

after trying the powderstuff i must say the a decent fresh made creme pat is BY FAR better and that i really dont see the point in contaminating the subtle fruity flavor of a moist plump vanillabean with a very much inferior product.

[tan319]

Wow, you two must not get it, understand exactly what was written.

The recipes that I'm talking about, say, by a Ducasse/Roberts, or a Cannone /Pfeiffer are using such a SMALL amount of this product

90 grams of it to a liter of milk and 10 eggs?

200 grams of sugar?

That's some measurements from a Ducasse/Roberts recipe...

"Have we come thus far"...

Do we have to clench our butt cheeks SOOOOO tight as to not allow some non right out of the garden, fresh out of the hen, etc. products into our lives, culinarily?

I mean, in a Ducasse/Roberts situation, or Cannone /Pfeiffer, where we're talking about people who have been doing food since they were 14 or 15, over 20 years, do you think they might have at some point thought, "how do I get less of that eggy taste?" or just ponder what it would do to a creme patiserrie, not to mention, yes, the xathan gum would stabilize it slightly, and if we freeze the pastry item with the pistachio pastry cream that we used that powder in, it might not "weep when it thaws out, not to mention have a bit more intensity to it?

Is it that much different then using a little heavy cream to mount/start a buerre blanc, for instance?

Should it freak everybody out that Ducasse/Roberts or Ferran/Albert Adria use IQF fruit sometimes for sauces and or compotes/jams?

And having tried some of those recipes one can maybe get a feeling for why they would, because of the brightness of the flavor, consistant results, etc.?

Having gone back here and reviewed some of these posts, I think some points were missed.

Personally, I'm not talking about "pastry cream" mixes, per se...

However, when someone like bripastryguy talks about a product like he uses, I'm inclined to believe that it must be a good product, because I think I know he wouldn't use anything that would compromise his quality, no matter what it did to his bottom line, etc.