Katz’s Delicatessen

[Fat Guy]

Once told to me by a waiter at Katz's:

"A few months ago, we got a new pickle slicer. Now, we used to have this guy Lenny, he worked behind the counter. Lenny goes to the boss one day and says: 'Hey, boss, I got a problem. I got this irresistible urge to stick my schlong [Yiddish slang for penis] in the pickle slicer.' The boss says: 'Lenny don't do it. I'm sending you to a shrink.'"

"So Lenny sees this shrink and tells about the problem and the shrink listens and they talk and the shrink says at the end: 'Lenny, you got problems. We gotta work on this. Whatever you do, before the next time you see me, don't stick your thing in the pickle slicer, OK?'"

"Lenny goes back the next week to the shrink and says: 'Doc, I couldn't help myself. I did it. I stuck my schlong in the pickle slicer.' The shrink says: 'So what happened?' Lenny says: 'I got fired.'"

"'Yeah,' says the shrink, 'but what about the pickle slicer?'"

"'Oh, she got fired too."

[Fat Guy]

Then there was the time the lady asked the counterman if the tongue was good and he said, "It speaks for itself . . ."

[La Niña]

Had lunch at Katz's. Wonderful pastrami, but disgusting, and I mean disgusting, tongue. So salty it was inedible. And a gross, over-offal-y aftertaste. Yuck.

[SteveW]

Just finished watching the 'Sandwiches that you will like' PBS documentary. Katz's deli was one of the featured sandwich places. The Katz's pastrami brisket, to my eye looks noticeably different from Montreal smoked meat.

According to the Katz's person, the key when ordering pastrami there, is to tell the counter person have it 'juicy.' Definitely don't order it lean or extra lean. One of the Katz's customers mentioned that when he was young, they were around 500 Jewish delis in Manhattan, now they're only around a dozen. Wow! interesting fact.

---------------

Steve

Edited January 9, 2003 by SteveW (log)

[jaybee]

One of the Katz's customers mentioned that when he was young, they were around 500 Jewish delis in Manhattan, now they're only around a dozen. Wow! interesting fact.

That is true. In a ten block radius of my apartment house, there were no fewer than ten legit Jewish delisin 1965. Today there are none. Atie's and Fine & Shapiro's are retro creations. Only Barney Greengrass remains from that era.

But there are probably twenty glatt kosher restaurants today when five years ago there was maybe one.

Edited January 9, 2003 by jaybee (log)

[jaybee]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Fine & Shapiro is a retro creation. I remember eating there in the late '60s.

I believe the Russian owners have no connection to the original F&S. They bought the name and the store. In fact, I think they are the second generation of ownership from the originators.

[weinoo]

I think part of the problem with Katz's isn't so much the quality of the meats, but the quality of the people slicing it...my last pastrami sandwich there (and it will be my last) had meat sliced so thickly that it could barely be eaten. I'll take the 2nd Ave Deli's sandwiches over Katz's any day.

Real belly lox is available as well at Sable's, on 2nd Ave. between 77 & 78. Wouldn't it be great to be able to get a real bagel as well?!

[porkpa]

I went to Katz's on Sunday afternoon at about 2.30. The place was packed. If you are one person how do you arrange to get a seat? I got lucky and a small table was vacating when I had my food. Otherwise I guess you stand around looking silly. I cleared the remaining debris myself and sat down and ate amongst the surrounding chaos. Next time, if the place is full, I'll just take the food out.

I had half a pastrami and half a beef brisket sandwich. The pastrami was excellent - tasty, slightly on the fat side, well spiced and delicious. The brisket was not bad, but not really good either. Bland and somewhat tasteless. Second Avenue's brisket is much better, but Katz's pastrami prevails. The young meat slicer, was polite well presented and did his job well. For ambience, user friendliness and especially cleanliness Second Avenue stands out. I'm not sure on the price differential, if in fact there is one.

Porkpa

[Bobaloo]

As an ex–deli pro with nine year's experience in the Chicago area, I must chime in on this topic. For me, a visit to a new deli requires ordering pastrami. It is the substance that defines the place. Unfortunately, there is only one place in our metro area that serves good pastrami, Max & Benny's in Northbrook, which fortunately is a 25 mile schlep for me.

My wife is from New York, so we get to visit pretty often. Here is my take on the question. NY (and Montreal) pastrami is made from brisket. It usually is made without the "point" or "deckel", the fatty tissue that sits on top of the brisket flat. Chicago pastrami is usually made from the plate, the area on the front of the abdomen, which is fattier. Nobody in Chicago cures their own meats anymore; they all use vacuum-packed stuff from Vienna, Hebrew National (not plate), Best's Kosher, etc. At one point in 1976, we actually tried using Schneider's from Canada, which didn't go over very well with anybody.

I think that the extra fat in the Chicago version enables a more consistent product, even though always machine sliced thin. I think that New York pastrami, when fatty/juicy enough, will outshine anything in the world. But after dozens of meals at Carnegie, 2nd Avenue, Stage, Ben's, Katz's and others, way too often (even when asking for "not lean"), the tendency (with the exception of Carnegie, which was dripping with fat...eeecchhh) is for NY product to be too lean/dry, but still tasty.

My wife's grandmother, from Romania, always ordered her pastrami "cold and fat". She made it to 90 before she developed a blockage!

[VivreManger]

Bobaloo,

Welcome to the club. If it interests you you might take a look at the various Montreal Smoked Meat threads which spun off the Katz's discussion. I would be curious if you have information about what precisely distinguishes NY pastrami from Montreal smoked meat. The latter is usually tougher and must be sliced very thin. What would cause the greater toughness? You are right that the whole Montreal brisket lacks the fatty covering, but it does usually have a fatty tip. If you can't find the discussions, I can PM you with the references and main points.

[MHesse]

We stopped for lunch at Katz's today after a hard morning of lamp shopping on the Bowery. Got there around 2pm. Place was PACKED, many first timers including my wife. We split a pastrami on rye and a matzoh ball soup. She found a table while I worked my way to the counter. Got served just after the table was found. Pastrami was very juicy, but a little on the fatty side (I didn't want to order lean). Wife said soup was the best MB soup she's had; sandwich was very good, but I need to go back again and see if it could be better. Rye bread of course completely insufficientto contain sandwich. Lots of people ordered on club roll; good idea. The mass of humanity in the place took a little away from the experience. Will go off hours if possible next time. Was thirsty the rest rest of the day.

[Pan]

If you want to pick your pastrami, go up to the counter. The counterman will give you some to try, and if you aren't satisfied, ask him to replace it with another one that's juicier, leaner, of more consistent texture, or whatever. Tip the counterman, then sit in the self-service section.

And why were you thirsty? Didn't you get anything to drink with your pastrami?

[jogoode]

Rye bread of course completely insufficientto contain sandwich. Lots of people ordered on club roll; good idea.

A club roll is sacrilege!

Order it on rye. Ask for extra bread. One sandwich becomes two.

BTW, I think 2nd Ave Deli has better rye bread.

I like a soda with my pastrami. Root beer, or a Pepsi. Lots of ice. One of the few times I drink soda. With pastrami and brick-oven pizza.

[wesza]

Whenever I used to go to Katz's for a Snack?

I followed the custom learned from my Father-in-Law who owned a business on Eldridge Street.

They generally ordered a Pastrami on Rye and a side order of Chopped Liver that always came with Sliced Rye Bread.

This was reassembled at the table into several combination sandwiches of Pastrami and Chopped Liver.

During the week at lunchtime it wasn't unusual to see this being put together on more then a few tables.

The other sides that seemed popular were Coleslaw, Potato Salad or French Fries.

The Coles Law or Potato Salad were often also incorperated into the Sandwiches the French Fries were a inbdulgence with ketchup for big eaters.

A lot of these guys shared regular tables at lunch for years, something like a lunch at Katz's Club.

Irwin

[Pan]

Lunch at Katz's sounds good to me, but a snack?!!!!!

[Felonius]

I've been to both Katz's and Carnegie Deli a few times and thoroughly enjoyed both pastrami sandwiches. Certainly better than any pastrami I've had outside NYC. My impression was that Katz served a hotter and somewhat jucier sandwich.

This thread has me intrigued. Tipping the meat slicer guy? Sampling slices for approval? I had no idea this was part of the routine.

So help me out NYC pastrami experts (and there seem to be quite a few on this thread). What does a clueless Southern gentile like me need to know in order to obtain a proper pastrami sandwich in NYC? Is there a certain ritual akin to what Fat Guy so expertly described in his opus on ordering at a sushi bar?

I seem to remember trying to order a "Reuben" sandwich one day at 2nd Ave Deli and being given a very strange look by the waiter. My dining companion explained to me that I had just ordered a non-Kosher item in a Kosher deli. So clearly I need all the help I can get on this topic.

Edited December 21, 2003 by Felonius (log)

[Pan]

Felonious, all you really have to do is ask for a pastrami on rye. Like I said, the counter guy will give you a couple of little slices to try. If you like them, tell him, and he'll make a sandwich with them. If you find them wanting, tell him, and he'll get another big slab out of the steamer and give you a sample of that one, too. Of course, if you know you want one that's juicy or one that's lean, tell that to the counter guy right away. Once he's done, tip him at least a dollar, and at least two if you rejected the first sample. And don't forget your ticket! If you lose the ticket you get at Katz's on entry, you'll be charged $50!

If you're not really, really hungry and don't think you could finish a whole pastrami sandwich, you can get a half sandwich with or without a bowl of soup (matzo ball or split pea - both good).

If you want cole slaw or some other side dish or soda, go to the far end of the counter to order that. The soups are at the side nearest to the window.

Anything else you wanna know?

[wesza]

Lunch at Katz's sounds good to me, but a snack?!!!!!

Michael: That was a mid afternoon Snack for my wife and my self.

Believe it ? For Lunch in those days I'd scraff: Bowl Matzoh Ball Soup, Pastrami Sandwich, Slice Garlic Wurst , Knish and bottles of Dr Browns Celery and Cream Soda.

Someday i'll tell you how my eating habits wound up after about 50 years full time.

Irwin

[rozrapp]

I seem to remember trying to order a "Reuben" sandwich one day at 2nd Ave Deli and being given a very strange look by the waiter.  My dining companion explained to me that I had just ordered a non-Kosher item in a Kosher deli.  So clearly I need all the help I can get on this topic.

Felonius, There is nothing inherently non-kosher about the individual items in a Reuben. However, kosher rules dictate that dairy and meat not be mixed. Therefore, a Reuben, which includes corned beef and cheese, cannot be served in a kosher deli. In fact, there are no dairy products of any kind in a kosher deli. Unlike the 2nd Ave. Deli, Carnegie and Katz's are not kosher. So, they can offer a Reuben. Whether or not they do is another question.

[MHesse]

If you want to pick your pastrami, go up to the counter. The counterman will give you some to try, and if you aren't satisfied, ask him to replace it with another one that's juicier, leaner, of more consistent texture, or whatever. Tip the counterman, then sit in the self-service section.

And why were you thirsty? Didn't you get anything to drink with your pastrami?

I did get my sandwich at the counter. I tipped a dollar as I gave my order. I liked the sample slices he gave me. The sandwich had more fatty slices than the sample. I'm not really complaining; I liked the sandwich and I've read here that some fat is better than all lean, though I'm not sure I agree with that now. I asked the counterman to also get me my soup and a cel-ray. He did, while explaining that his job is just to make sandwiches. Another dollar tip. Having to go to the counter three times: sandwich, soup, soda yesterday in that crowd would have been worse than getting a DVD on sale at Walmart.

One half a cel-ray was not enough to cure my thirst. I will asked for extra bread next time. Yesterday I was so happy to have reached the counterman with only 15 minutes waiting and then not having the tray knocked over by the crowd behind me, I considered that a victory.

We did sit in self serve. My wife found two seats after about ten minutes. Solo, I would have had a cold lunch by the time a seat opened up.

Still, a NY experience. Funny, I don't enjoy NY experiences as much as I used to.

[John]

I seem to remember trying to order a "Reuben" sandwich one day at 2nd Ave Deli and being given a very strange look by the waiter.  My dining companion explained to me that I had just ordered a non-Kosher item in a Kosher deli.  So clearly I need all the help I can get on this topic.

Felonius, There is nothing inherently non-kosher about the individual items in a Reuben. However, kosher rules dictate that dairy and meat not be mixed. Therefore, a Reuben, which includes corned beef and cheese, cannot be served in a kosher deli. In fact, there are no dairy products of any kind in a kosher deli. Unlike the 2nd Ave. Deli, Carnegie and Katz's are not kosher. So, they can offer a Reuben. Whether or not they do is another question.

Roz,

The Deli King in Clark is on my mail route. They are a kosher deli and will not mix meat and dairy like you said, but will put the cheese on the side or on another plate so that you can have a reuben. I haven't asked them yet, but I just realized that they are open on Saturdays. Isn't this also a violation of Kosher law?

[rozrapp]

Roz,

      The Deli King in Clark is on my mail route. They are a kosher deli and will not mix meat and dairy like you said, but will put the cheese on the side or on another plate so that you can have a reuben. I haven't asked them yet, but I just realized that they are open on Saturdays. Isn't this also a violation of Kosher law?

John, A distinction has to be made between a kosher deli that has been certified as being "strictly kosher," and a deli that serves kosher products but has not been so certified. The former would never serve any dairy products, while the latter can, if they so choose. Therefore, your Deli King appears to fall into the latter category. As for the Saturday issue, there is a category of kosher delis called glatt kosher. They are usually owned by very observant Jews and are not open on Saturday. In the case of "regular" (non-glatt) kosher delis, if the owners are not particularly observant, they tend to be open. However, all kosher delis close during the entire 8 days of Passover, since many deli products -- and bread, of course -- are verboten during Passover. So, have I now thorougly confused you?

[John]

Yeah, now I am confused. I've seen advertisements for the Deli King where they claim to be certified kosher, even having the name of the Rabbi whose supervision they are under. Yet they're open on Saturday. I think I'll just ask them when I'm in there again.

[wesza]

Yeah, now I am confused. I've seen advertisements for the Deli King where they claim to be certified kosher, even having the name of the Rabbi whose supervision they are under. Yet they're open on Saturday. I think I'll just ask them when I'm in there again.

All it takes is two Magical words if i'm not mistaken.

"SHABOS GOY".

Irwin

[bloviatrix]

As for the Saturday issue, there is a category of kosher delis called glatt kosher.  They are usually owned by very observant Jews and are not open on Saturday.  In the case of "regular" (non-glatt) kosher delis, if the owners are not particularly observant, they tend to be open.

I hate to be a crank, but I feel a need to clear up a common misconception but Glatt has nothing to do with how observant the owner of a shop is.

Per Rabbi Ari Zivotofsky:

Glatt is Yiddish for smooth, and in the context of kashrut it means that the lungs of the animal were smooth, without any adhesions that could potentially prohibit the animal as a treifa, an issue only applicable to animals, not fowl or non-meat products.

What he's is saying that there's a higher level of scrutiny used in determining whether an animal's lungs meet the requirements for kashrut. (In simplest terms, in order for meat to be kosher, the animal must 1) slaughtered in a certain way 2) have it's internal organs inspected to make sure they meet certain requirements 3)the meat must then be salted and soaked in order to draw the blood out.)

As to whether a restaurant is open on the sabbath, that's dependent on what type of rabbinic supervision they have.