Best and worst non-French foods in France

[Ptipois]

The "Nicoise" cuisine is pretty unique, you really don't see it anywhere else.  From the namesake Salade Nicoise, to things like Pan Bagnat, Pissaladiere, and Socca, these are foods you would NEVER see in Italy.

Quite right. The Comté de Nice always had its very special cuisine, distinct from Genoese-Ligurian cuisine (though closely related to it), and from Provençal cuisine too.

In fact, since the comté was Italian until relatively recently, Nice cuisine is more related to its Italian parent the cuisine of Liguria than to the cuisine of Provence. Culturally, the region of Nice is Ligurian. Nice is also the birthplace of ravioli.

Confusing Niçoise cuisine and Provençal cuisine is a mistake often done, including by the French themselves. The fact that Provence and Nice do have some dishes in common (the daube, for instance) doesn't make the identification easier. One of the specificities of Nice cuisine is the prevalence of blettes (chard greens) and other green vegetables, just like Ligurian and Genoese cuisine, but this feature is less pronounced in Provençal cuisine.

Still, the description of Provençal cuisine as somewhat "Italian" just because there's olive oil, tomatoes, garlic and fresh vegetables puzzles me... In this case, let's label the whole Mediterranean as "Italian".

[menton1]

Still, the description of Provençal cuisine as somewhat "Italian" just because there's olive oil, tomatoes, garlic and fresh vegetables puzzles me... In this case, let's label the whole Mediterranean as "Italian".

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D'accord!!

[Busboy]

It's fruitless to argue who first put tomatoes, garlic and basil together or harvested the first artichoke but -- like the Nicoise writing on the buldings in the Vielle Ville -- I found the food of that region is a lot closer to the Italian border than it is to Paris. 

I respectfully disagree. Firstly, Paris is not a good representative of any French regional food; rather, it is the giant melting pot of all of the French cuisines. French regional cooking is very very different from area to area. The "Nicoise" cuisine is pretty unique, you really don't see it anywhere else. From the namesake Salade Nicoise, to things like Pan Bagnat, Pissaladiere, and Socca, these are foods you would NEVER see in Italy.

As I said in my above post, the ingredients may be similar, but the food you will eat in Liguria, just 30 miles from Nice and the food in Nice is prepared and served very differently. Soupe de Pistou has basil, but it comes in a reddish color, rather than the bright-green pesto preparations across the border.

Yes, Nice east to the border was ruled by the Savoys until 1860, when Napoleon III cleverly "swapped" it in return for support of Italian unification. But probably the architecture (especially in Menton) would serve as a better reminder of the Italian roots rather than the food.

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Didn't mean to imply that Cuisine Nicoise wasn't unique, merely to suggest that it may have more in common with Italian cooking (without being Italian) than with, say, to the cooking of Normandy or Burgundy. Hell, the first meal I ever ate in Nice featured was pasta with pesto and oxtail with polenta (at La Merenda, whose existance you may have alerted me to on a much earlier thread). That's more than vaguely Italian. And I couldn't help but notice the profusion of pizza joints in the city, one of which served me an excellent pie.

[Pan]

I'm thinking of things like the prevalence of garlic, onions, tomatoes, and red wine, and also the emphasis on fresh green vegetables and herbs in an agricultural region.

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What makes you think this prevalence is exclusively Italian in nature?

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We are in agreement that it quite obviously is not exclusively Italian in nature, but it is a commonality between Provencal food and the food of many regions of Italy.

[chefzadi]

Provencal food is not exactly world's apart from it's neighboring region of Italy. As for Socca, guess what a version exists in the African side of the Med, don't about Italy (I'll ask Albiston).

It's like going from Morocco to Western Algeria.

[Pan]

I'm slightly puzzled by the widespread agreement in this thread that Japanese food is so awful in France. I guess some places in the 1ieme and 2ieme in Paris are exceptions that prove the rule, then.

One thing that's worth adding to the side discussion of the similarities and differences between Nicois and Provencal cuisine vis a vis Italian: It's often been pointed out that several Northern Italian regional cuisines have more in common with the cuisines of countries further to the north than to, say, Neapolitan cuisine. (I won't offer that as my own opinion, because I lack sufficient knowledge of those northern cuisines, but I've heard and read such remarks many times.) Italy, of course, has been unified for only some 134 years, and the southern part was part of Spain for centuries. Etc. European history is very complicated and it may well be that all those complications have had culinary effects.

[Bux]

It may be less obvious to the French, but any American going to note significant overlap between Nicoise/Provencal cooking and the cooking of Italy. Not surprising, given that Nice was more or less part part of Italy and various Italian kingdoms until 1860.

. . . .

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I'm wondering if that's not backwards. To a foreigner, particularly an American, the differences between Nicoise and Italian cooking may be lost, even though they are readily apparent and distinct to a local. There may be a superficial similarity that makes the two appear to be more related than they are while there are underlying differences that are more meaningful but less obvious. Pissaladiere is often described as pizza without cheese, but it may share more in common with other regional French tarts simply in terms of the basic pastry. The ingredients may be more similar than the techniques and thinking behind the dishes. Pastry shops in Nice are French pastry shops and won't be confused with Italian bakeries or pastry shops. The kinds of cheeses found and the way they are used will tell you a lot about the cuisines, perhaps more than olive oil or tomatoes.

[Ptipois]

I'm slightly puzzled by the widespread agreement in this thread that Japanese food is so awful in France. I guess some places in the 1ieme and 2ieme in Paris are exceptions that prove the rule, then.

Japanese food is okay in Paris, IMO, as long as you stick to the real thing (1er, 2e as you say). It's only that the recent years have been witnessing the appearance of many poor-quality sushi-yakitori joints, none of them Japanese-run, but these places don't deserve to be called Japanese restaurants anyway.

One thing that's worth adding to the side discussion of the similarities and differences between Nicois and Provencal cuisine vis a vis Italian: It's often been pointed out that several Northern Italian regional cuisines have more in common with the cuisines of countries further to the north than to, say, Neapolitan cuisine. (I won't offer that as my own opinion, because I lack sufficient knowledge of those northern cuisines, but I've heard and read such remarks many times.) Italy, of course, has been unified for only some 134 years, and the southern part was part of Spain for centuries. Etc. European history is very complicated and it may well be that all those complications have had culinary effects.

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Frankly, I think that trying to seize that problem won't take us anywhere as long as you think by "nations" instead of "regions".

The displacing of a border once or several times is a common thing in European history. It rarely affects the local cuisines to a large extent. Cuisines are more linked to traditional regions, duchies, counties, etc., than to unified nations. Political unification was a recent thing in Europe and the cuisines existed before it. Except for the case of court cuisines and elitist culinary codes, cuisines are a matter of regions, not nations. There is no significant difference in nature between the cuisine of Savoie and that of Val d'Aosta nearby; polenta is equally shared by Piedmont and Savoie-Dauphiné and who knows who influenced the other. It all arrived through Spain anyway. What makes one cuisine "French" and the other "Italian" is only a label pasted on by history. I think it's somewhat pointless to judge the "Italianness" or "Frenchness" of, say, Provençal cooking when you consider the development of Provence as a cultural entity. What about Provincia Romana, Occitan culture, the importance of Marseille as a seaport and so forth? Provence has black truffles and so has Ombria. Well, they grow there. and how exactly did tomatoes spread through Europe? Nice is a yet trickier problem if one insists on applying the "Italy" or "France" stencil over it. Catalunya is spread on both sides of the Spanish-French border and has a small strip in France, called Roussillon. The Catalan language is related to the Occitan language, like Provençal. Culinary dishes in Roussillon have a lot in common with those made across the border, does that mean that they are "more Spanish than french"? I don't think so, but I don't think they're "more French" either. I only think that once you start using the "nation" criteria trying to understand a process that has always been regional, you won't easily grasp it.

[John Talbott]

I'm slightly puzzled by the widespread agreement in this thread that Japanese food is so awful in France. I guess some places in the 1ieme and 2ieme in Paris are exceptions that prove the rule, then.

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Pan, my remark way above was aimed at the necessity to eat at places where a good deal of fresh fish is consumed daily to ensure its freshness. I disagree that Japanese food here is substandard. It may not equal the variety and top top quality of product found in Japan or New York's best places, but the places I've eaten at in the 1st, 17th and even nearer home in the 18th easily equal average places in big US cities.

[chefzadi]

Frankly, I think that trying to seize that problem won't take us anywhere as long as you think by "nations" instead of "regions".

Exactly.

And this applies to Maghrebi cuisine as well.

[zeitoun]

I'm slightly puzzled by the widespread agreement in this thread that Japanese food is so awful in France. I guess some places in the 1ieme and 2ieme in Paris are exceptions that prove the rule, then.

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I think the reference made about Japanese food in Paris was not so much to demonstrate that Japanese restaurants are awful but rather that Parisians seem to know very little about Japanese culinary traditions in general when compared with some US cities such as NY, SF or LA. The irritating ubiquity of those low standard yakitori-sushi places in Paris is one reason and put plainly, there seems to be more people in New York or LA that know what a daikon radish is and how it is used in Japanese cookery, than in Paris.

[chefzadi]

If you go to J-town in Los Angeles, you'll see plenty of Japanese (and other Asians) eating mediocre Japanese food.

But you are correct in SF and LA it would be pretty hard to find someone who doesn't know how to use chopsticks or at least hasn't tried. There is more awareness of Asian cuisines in general in these cities for the obvious reason that there are a tremendous number of Asian immigrants. Korea town in LA is the biggest 'minority' presence in the middle of the city. Korean BBQ is the new Teriyaki.

On the other hand it's not really as if the average urban American has a deep understanding of all these great ethnic cuisines available in the States. These comparisons at a certain point are senseless.

One thing I would like to mention is that in the "North African in America" thread I started several posters pointed out that "African" and "Middle Eastern" have negative connonations in America to the point that restaurants that specifically name certain Middle Eastern countries go out of business depending on the Global situation of the day.

So the French don't get Japanese. The French don't have a problem getting North African cuisine or Lebanese.

[menton1]

Provencal food is not exactly world's apart from it's neighboring region of Italy.

Not sure what you mean by worlds apart... The food is DIFFERENT, for clarity. And Nicois food is also different from Provencal. Have lunch in a restaurant in Menton, France, and then step over the border (you could practically walk) into Ventimiglia, Italy. Everything is different. The look of the land, the language (of course) the culture, and the FOOD. (Since 2002, the money is the same!! )

The ingredients may be the same or similar, but the preparations and the way they are served is very different. I've spent much time in the Cote d'Azur and in Liguria, and I can't say I see much similarity. When in a restaurant, you won't have to blink to remember which country you are in!!

[Pan]

[...]Pastry shops in Nice are French pastry shops and won't be confused with Italian bakeries or pastry shops.[...]

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I agree with that. Point well taken.

Ptipois, your point about regionality being more important for understanding European cuisines than national identity is also well-stated and well taken.

[chefzadi]

Hopefully one day, the rest of the world will discover the full glory and artistry of Chinese and Mexican cuisines. The food cultures there are some of the oldest and most sophisticated in the world, and we all have a lot to learn.

Yes we all have alot to learn, including more about our culinary histories.

In LA the San Gabriel Valley is undoubtedly the epicenter of Chinese restaurants. Numerous threads on egullet compare different Chinatowns throughout the world and the SFG is a leading contender for "best" in terms of range, depth and diversity. Outside of certain areas, most of the Chinese food is pretty standard Chinese-American restaurant, some of it is very well prepared and delicious but it's not exactly a glorious culinary/cultural experience.

Beginning in Koreatown and moving westward, alot of the Chinese restaurants are owned by Koreans. (Koreans also own alot of those "pan-asian" trendy places on the Westside as well). Koreans also own alot of the restaurants in Little Tokyo and serve up food to smiling tourists (many of them Japanese).

There's been some talk on other threads about Korean cuisine as possibly being a break out cuisine. Gyu-Kaku

looks like it's already broken out. Yes it's a Japanese chain that serves Korean BBQ.

All this is to say that alot of so called 'ethnic' food in America has little to do with experiencing 'culture'.

All of this talk of Mexican food in France from the point of view as a French person is a bit perplexing. We have very few Mexican immigrants and there is simply very little interest in France in Mexican cuisine. It's a culinary void for expat Americans, that's about it. Maybe if a famous Mexican chef came to France and promoted the cuisine interest could be generated. What is Chef Bayless doing next week?

I started a thread on North African cuisine in America. No doubt there is interest, trend reports for years predicting it as the next big thing. Some members posted that unfortunately "African" and "Middle Eastern" have negative connotations in America. Does not surprise me in the least bit. The average French person will know much more about North African cuisine, culture and history than the average American (even Los Angeleno) does about Mexican, IMNHO.

Yes, we all have a lot to learn. And we are free to choose what we want to learn. Pointing out gaps in other cuisines/cultures as some sort of national failure while ignoring gaps in one's own is not exactly a fair comparison.

[Ptipois]

Yes, we all have a lot to learn. And we are free to choose what we want to learn. Pointing out gaps in other cuisines/cultures as some sort of national failure while ignoring gaps in one's own is not exactly a fair comparison.

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Well said!

[jennahan]

I've been thinking about some of the points raised in this thread about the generalization that the French don't seem to embrace "non-French" food as witnessed by the lack of good-quality restaurants of other non-French cuisines.

Perhaps the reason why the French aren't as enthusiastic about world cuisine is due to the fact that most French identify themselves first with the region they were born in or their families are from. As such, and due to the entrenchment and codification of local cuisines throughout France, eating food from another region would be an experience likened to eating food from another country. (Kind of like travel to another region in France for a Frenchman/woman is equivalent to travelling abroad for many non-French). For an Angevin, going to a Nicoise or Lyonnaise restaurant IS eating "ethnic". Maybe this is the reason for the slow uptake of food outside France, particularly those cuisines from places which were not even ex-colonies.

[Ptipois]

I've been thinking about some of the points raised in this thread about the generalization that the French don't seem to embrace "non-French" food as witnessed by the lack of good-quality restaurants of other non-French cuisines.

What is wrong with our Vietnamese and Laotian restaurants, the best outside of Southeast Asia, and our North African restaurants? Not to mention Lebanese food? Do they count for nothing? What other ethnic restaurants should we have in order to be labeled "acceptable" in the field of non-French restaurants?

Perhaps the reason why the French aren't as enthusiastic about world cuisine is due to the fact that most French identify themselves first with the region they were born in or their families are from.  As such, and due to the entrenchment and codification of local cuisines throughout France, eating food from another region would be an experience likened to eating food from another country. (Kind of like travel to another region in France for a Frenchman/woman is equivalent to travelling abroad for many non-French).  For an Angevin, going to a Nicoise or Lyonnaise restaurant IS eating "ethnic".  Maybe this is the reason for the slow uptake of food outside France, particularly those cuisines from places which were not even ex-colonies.

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Well, things have changed a bit, in France, since the Middle Ages (I'm saying "the Middle Ages" because we have written proof that we already knew about couscous in the 16th century).

[jennahan]

I've been thinking about some of the points raised in this thread about the generalization that the French don't seem to embrace "non-French" food as witnessed by the lack of good-quality restaurants of other non-French cuisines.

What is wrong with our Vietnamese and Laotian restaurants, the best outside of Southeast Asia, and our North African restaurants? Not to mention Lebanese food? Do they count for nothing? What other ethnic restaurants should we have in order to be labeled "acceptable" in the field of non-French restaurants?

Perhaps the reason why the French aren't as enthusiastic about world cuisine is due to the fact that most French identify themselves first with the region they were born in or their families are from.  As such, and due to the entrenchment and codification of local cuisines throughout France, eating food from another region would be an experience likened to eating food from another country. (Kind of like travel to another region in France for a Frenchman/woman is equivalent to travelling abroad for many non-French).  For an Angevin, going to a Nicoise or Lyonnaise restaurant IS eating "ethnic".  Maybe this is the reason for the slow uptake of food outside France, particularly those cuisines from places which were not even ex-colonies.

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Well, things have changed a bit, in France, since the Middle Ages (I'm saying "the Middle Ages" because we have written proof that we already knew about couscous in the 16th century).

←

I was just remarking on the reason this topic was started, not making an accusation...I do apologize profusely if you belive that I was insulting the French! In terms of the latter part of the quote, I was refering to observations made in a book called "Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" written in 2002 by 2 serious journalists about France TODAY.

[ludja]

...

As for 'ethnic' foods in America it's really in the last 30 years that all of this has been embraced with great gusto. Of course Italian-American and Chinese-American for example were popular long before. My wife recalls 30 years ago, alot of people in LA asking her what a Korean was?

...

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I'm just reading this thread for the first time and just wanted to comment on this--(even though it is not the main topic).

The Northeast and area around Chicago were the destination of the huge number of immigrants that came over in two broad waves, mid 1800's and then turn of the century and continuing up to WWII. In places like Mass, CT, RI, NY, NJ and Chicago, Detroit there were milllions of immigrants of Portuguese, German/Austrian, Irish, Polish, Hungarian, Italian, Polish, Jewish, Greek background. Although for some of these groups there are less restaurants, delis, bakeries, markets, butchers now, that was not the case even 20-30 years ago.

And while to newer immigrants from Asia and points South they may all seem like "Europeans" , at the time (and still, in some places) they were definately considered very "ethnic" to the previous Yankees/North Easterners living there.

As a Northeasterner who has lived in CA for over 10 years, I've heard comments from many Californians and CA immigrants that aren't as aware of the immense ethnic and immigrant influences back in the Northeast from earlier immigration waves. (I mean, I'm sure they've heard of it, but if they haven't visited or lived there they may not realize the extent of it or think of it as less distinct b/c it was other Europeans rather than Asians or Hispanics.

Many parts of the US did not have this ethnic influence at the time, but a huge portion (population-wise) of the US did.

Interesting thread guys. Tricky discussion b/c there are lots of subtleties, but there are good points being brought up by many.

[chefzadi]

...

As for 'ethnic' foods in America it's really in the last 30 years that all of this has been embraced with great gusto. Of course Italian-American and Chinese-American for example were popular long before. My wife recalls 30 years ago, alot of people in LA asking her what a Korean was?

...

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I'm just reading this thread for the first time and just wanted to comment on this--(even though it is not the main topic).

The Northeast and area around Chicago were the destination of the huge number of immigrants that came over in two broad waves, mid 1800's and then turn of the century and continuing up to WWII. In places like Mass, CT, RI, NY, NJ and Chicago, Detroit there were milllions of immigrants of Portuguese, German/Austrian, Irish, Polish, Hungarian, Italian, Polish, Jewish, Greek background. Although for some of these groups there are less restaurants, delis, bakeries, markets, butchers now, that was not the case even 20-30 years ago.

And while to newer immigrants from Asia and points South they may all seem like "Europeans" , at the time (and still, in some places) they were definately considered very "ethnic" to the previous Yankees/North Easterners living there.

As a Northeasterner who has lived in CA for over 10 years, I've heard comments from many Californians and CA immigrants that aren't as aware of the immense ethnic and immigrant influences back in the Northeast from earlier immigration waves. (I mean, I'm sure they've heard of it, but if they haven't visited or lived there they may not realize the extent of it or think of it as less distinct b/c it was other Europeans rather than Asians or Hispanics.

Many parts of the US did not have this ethnic influence at the time, but a huge portion (population-wise) of the US did.

Interesting thread guys. Tricky discussion b/c there are lots of subtleties, but there are good points being brought up by many.

←

I do realize that. That's why I mentioned earlier to Michael that some of the 'ethnic' groups he mentioned were European and no longer considered 'ethnic' (possibly because the central point of view is no longer primarily Anglo, we could argue that one too I suppose).

As for your second point about the Northeast it's probably better for someone who is a Calfornian of Asian descent who has been to the Northeast 20 or so times to respond to that one. I know a really obsevant one by the way.Maybe she'll post. But your point goes back to some of my earlier points which is that it's not possible to have a deep understanding of a culture or people by a surface glances at the restaurant scene or by studying what and how French people eat at said restaurants..

Map of France.

Looks like it's surrounded by European countries. France has a long history of immigration/invasion from other European countries. (I know you know that Ludja).

Btw, The Moors made it to France during their stint in Spain.

[DCMark]

No comment on your intentions but that is a horrible book. The sub-title is "Why we love France, But not the French". As someone who loves the French, and a particular french person especially, the offensive title is only ecsliped by the banal writing. Don't buy this book!

I've been thinking about some of the points raised in this thread about the generalization that the French don't seem to embrace "non-French" food as witnessed by the lack of good-quality restaurants of other non-French cuisines.

What is wrong with our Vietnamese and Laotian restaurants, the best outside of Southeast Asia, and our North African restaurants? Not to mention Lebanese food? Do they count for nothing? What other ethnic restaurants should we have in order to be labeled "acceptable" in the field of non-French restaurants?

Perhaps the reason why the French aren't as enthusiastic about world cuisine is due to the fact that most French identify themselves first with the region they were born in or their families are from.  As such, and due to the entrenchment and codification of local cuisines throughout France, eating food from another region would be an experience likened to eating food from another country. (Kind of like travel to another region in France for a Frenchman/woman is equivalent to travelling abroad for many non-French).  For an Angevin, going to a Nicoise or Lyonnaise restaurant IS eating "ethnic".  Maybe this is the reason for the slow uptake of food outside France, particularly those cuisines from places which were not even ex-colonies.

←

Well, things have changed a bit, in France, since the Middle Ages (I'm saying "the Middle Ages" because we have written proof that we already knew about couscous in the 16th century).

←

I was just remarking on the reason this topic was started, not making an accusation...I do apologize profusely if you belive that I was insulting the French! In terms of the latter part of the quote, I was refering to observations made in a book called "Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" written in 2002 by 2 serious journalists about France TODAY.

←

[chefzadi]

I've been thinking about some of the points raised in this thread about the generalization that the French don't seem to embrace "non-French" food as witnessed by the lack of good-quality restaurants of other non-French cuisines.

What is wrong with our Vietnamese and Laotian restaurants, the best outside of Southeast Asia, and our North African restaurants? Not to mention Lebanese food? Do they count for nothing? What other ethnic restaurants should we have in order to be labeled "acceptable" in the field of non-French restaurants?

Perhaps the reason why the French aren't as enthusiastic about world cuisine is due to the fact that most French identify themselves first with the region they were born in or their families are from.  As such, and due to the entrenchment and codification of local cuisines throughout France, eating food from another region would be an experience likened to eating food from another country. (Kind of like travel to another region in France for a Frenchman/woman is equivalent to travelling abroad for many non-French).  For an Angevin, going to a Nicoise or Lyonnaise restaurant IS eating "ethnic".  Maybe this is the reason for the slow uptake of food outside France, particularly those cuisines from places which were not even ex-colonies.

←

Well, things have changed a bit, in France, since the Middle Ages (I'm saying "the Middle Ages" because we have written proof that we already knew about couscous in the 16th century).

←

I was just remarking on the reason this topic was started, not making an accusation...I do apologize profusely if you belive that I was insulting the French! In terms of the latter part of the quote, I was refering to observations made in a book called "Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" written in 2002 by 2 serious journalists about France TODAY.

←

The thread was started because Busboy started a thread called "small town dining in America, why France is so much better" (or something like that). This thread begat the "Mexican food in France thread" and I was inspired to start the "North African food in America thread"

Busboy should be proud to have instigated all this commotion.

Read the other threads.

Because this one has comments from those outside of the source culture that make the French look like closed minded dinosaurs and by comparison Americans are sophisticated diners of 'ethnic' cuisines.

We're not happy about being analyzed like zoo animals. (not that you did that Jena, I'm responding to your question about why this thread was started). We includes alot of French readers of this thread who have not commented.

[Busboy]

I've been thinking about some of the points raised in this thread about the generalization that the French don't seem to embrace "non-French" food as witnessed by the lack of good-quality restaurants of other non-French cuisines.

What is wrong with our Vietnamese and Laotian restaurants, the best outside of Southeast Asia, and our North African restaurants? Not to mention Lebanese food? Do they count for nothing? What other ethnic restaurants should we have in order to be labeled "acceptable" in the field of non-French restaurants?

←

It's not a question of "acceptible." But, I think it would be hard to make a case that France -- or almost any country, for that matter -- offers the variety and, often, the quality of ethnic restaurants that even fairly provincial U.S. cities (like my own DC) offer.

And, as an aside, I'm sure you've better North African cooking, but I'd be curious to match DC's best Vietnamese, which is one of our strengths, against France's.

[ludja]

...

As for 'ethnic' foods in America it's really in the last 30 years that all of this has been embraced with great gusto. Of course Italian-American and Chinese-American for example were popular long before. My wife recalls 30 years ago, alot of people in LA asking her what a Korean was?

...

←

I'm just reading this thread for the first time and just wanted to comment on this--(even though it is not the main topic).

The Northeast and area around Chicago were the destination of the huge number of immigrants that came over in two broad waves, mid 1800's and then turn of the century and continuing up to WWII. In places like Mass, CT, RI, NY, NJ and Chicago, Detroit there were milllions of immigrants of Portuguese, German/Austrian, Irish, Polish, Hungarian, Italian, Polish, Jewish, Greek background. Although for some of these groups there are less restaurants, delis, bakeries, markets, butchers now, that was not the case even 20-30 years ago.

And while to newer immigrants from Asia and points South they may all seem like "Europeans" , at the time (and still, in some places) they were definately considered very "ethnic" to the previous Yankees/North Easterners living there.

As a Northeasterner who has lived in CA for over 10 years, I've heard comments from many Californians and CA immigrants that aren't as aware of the immense ethnic and immigrant influences back in the Northeast from earlier immigration waves. (I mean, I'm sure they've heard of it, but if they haven't visited or lived there they may not realize the extent of it or think of it as less distinct b/c it was other Europeans rather than Asians or Hispanics.

Many parts of the US did not have this ethnic influence at the time, but a huge portion (population-wise) of the US did.

Interesting thread guys. Tricky discussion b/c there are lots of subtleties, but there are good points being brought up by many.

←

I do realize that. That's why I mentioned earlier to Michael that some of the 'ethnic' groups he mentioned were European and no longer considered 'ethnic' (possibly because the central point of view is no longer primarily Anglo, we could argue that one too I suppose).

As for your second point about the Northeast it's probably better for someone who is a Calfornian of Asian descent who has been to the Northeast 20 or so times to respond to that one. I know a really obsevant one by the way.Maybe she'll post. But your point goes back to some of my earlier points which is that it's not possible to have a deep understanding of a culture or people by a surface glances at the restaurant scene or by studying what and how French people eat at said restaurants..

Map of France.

Looks like it's surrounded by European countries. France has a long history of immigration/invasion from other European countries. (I know you know that Ludja).

Btw, The Moors made it to France during their stint in Spain.

←

Yup, my only little point (pretty much off topic from the main point of this thread and in response to your quote in isolation) was that substantially different ethnic food and restaurants in the US are not something that just happened in the last 30 years--in at least some parts of the country. The last 30 years has seen a big upswing in some new ethnic foods such as those from Mexican and different Asian cuisines--and over a larger portion of the country. I didn't mean to compare this implicitly or not with "ethnic food" history or trends in France of which I know very little except what I have been reading from you and others.

Carry on!

Edited July 21, 2005 by ludja (log)