The Kitchen Table

[Malawry]

I just bought a house today. It has a nice kitchen, but it needs more--it's not large enough for me to do the culinary teaching I hope to do from home in the near future. There's a large "nook" type area for a kitchen table at one end of the kitchen, which then flows into a carpeted living room area. I'd like to get a table that's higher than a standard kitchen table, which can double as an additional island/work table--and then surround it with chairs of barstool height (barstools with backs, basically).

The table I have in mind is extremely sturdy, with a thick wooden top that's easy to keep clean. It shouldn't be glossy since people will actually be working on it and I don't want to have to worry about the finish. A weathered look would be fine. I'd prefer legs that are centered enough to make it easy to sit at the table without banging your knees. There will be children, my own (in the future) and others crowding about this table for cooking classes, so I'd prefer the edges be a little softened rather than sharp and dangerous for little heads. There's enough room for a table that seats 8 in this space, and I'd like to find attractive barstools with backs to match. I want to be able to have an informal dinner party at this table, so I can entertain without leaving the kitchen. (We have a formal dining room with a formal dining room table I inherited from my grandparents, so this table will not be the only table we have for entertaining--but I imagine it will be where we actually spend most of our dining time.)

The kitchen itself is fairly formal, with dark wood cabinets, antiqued copper pulls, and coppery-golden countertops--the fixtures are also antiqued copper-type look. The floors are hardwood and a basic walnutty type color. Unfortunately, both the digital camera and the computer with photo-editing software are packed away, or I'd just take pictures to show ya'll.

We're willing to spend a fair amount of money for this table, and I'd consider getting it custom-made if it's not available on the market. Advice? Ideas? Even if you just have suggestions for who to avoid, I'd be glad to hear it.

I'm also interested in what you personally have for a kitchen table, and how it works for your house.

[steverino]

Hey Malawry-

Congrats on the new house! Exhilarating and stressful at the same time.

I'm custom furniture designer / fabricator in the Detroit metro area, and your description of what you want is exactly why I, and I'm sure others, in your area, exist.

Your specific needs can be addressed by someone like me, to build YOUR table to fit YOUR space perfectly, and function exactly as you want it to.

Based on what you explained in your post, I would recommend a 1 1/2" thick SOLID SLAB wood top. My gut says North American Walnut. This is about 99% of what is sold in North America. (go figure...) Also called Black Walnut. Not cheap stuff, comparable in price to Cherry, about $5 -$6 per board foot. A board foot is 12" x 12" x 1" in "the rough". This thickness is called "four - quarter" (1") and, when dressed will yield approx. 3/4". So, to yield 1 1/2", a furniture maker has to purchase "eight - quarter" material. (2" in "the rough"). This is probably way more crap than you need to know, but if you ARE going to go custom, it helps to know as much as possible.

If you want edge - grain, versus face - grain, it will be more costly because of labor, and that's where the real money comes from.

Your table top should have 1" - 3" radius corners, and it should have a 1/4" round over top and bottom. This 36" height (std. "countertop" height) is the perfect height for active kids to seriously open up their faces. Hence the roundovers, and radius corners.

Your table top, to seat 8 comfortably, is going to be 42" - 48" wide, and 90" - 96" long. There needs to be at MINIMUM, 6' between legs on the long side.

The planks, for a slab top, should be "splined" together when glued up. Once again, if you choose to go custom, good information.

Depending on final design, and built from any "native" species, (Oak, Maple, Ash, Cherry, etc.) I would charge between $3200 - $3800, delivered. Once I establish a design and price, the price is firm, unless you make serious changes. No surprises.

Custom made chairs, you pretty much don't want to know about. $1000+ each.

This is just a ballpark, to give you an idea. Talk to some custom furniture makers in your area.

*Make sure you see their portfolio.

*Get a couple references.

*Expect a wait of at least 8 - 12 weeks for a custom piece. That's typically the short end of my delivery window.

I've never posted pictures before, but (if this works) here are some pictures of my own kitchen table, it seats 6 comfortably.

Hope this is helpful, Malawry.

P.S. One of the first things I really enjoyed on eGullet was your School blog.

Steve

[Smithy]

I'm also interested in what you personally have for a kitchen table, and how it works for your house.

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Congratulations on the new house! May it see much joy within its walls!

Our kitchen table is an oval Chromecraft (Chrome Craft? ChromeCraft?) thing with fake, or maybe it's resin-impregrated, wood laminate surfaces and brass-colored metal pedestal legs near either end. It has rounded edges that can't bruise. I would not have picked it, as I'm a bit of a purist about using wood, but I have to admit that it's nearly indestructible, it's comfortable to sit at and it looks good in a casual way. My husband strongly prefers this style, and I like it well enough that I'd be willing to get a bigger version of the same thing when we finally get a larger table to suit my entertaining preferences. (This is, after all, the place where we eat every day, dump our mail, spill coffee, and do all those other daily-living activities.) If we ever get a dining room, then a good wooden table would be in order there.

Edited for clarity.

Edited July 7, 2005 by Smithy (log)

[SuzySushi]

Congratulations on your new home!

Before you go the custom route, check out the furniture stores around you. We have an L-shaped tall kitchen counter and were looking for bar stools to go around it. In our search, we came across lots of bar stools in two different heights (kitchen table height and bar height), and saw some very nice tables to match.

Never had a custom-made kitchen table, but when I lived in NYC I had a custom-made buffet-height side table and kitchen shelving. The side table was a Parsons style made of matte black Formica to my size specs, and held up very well for 15+ years. The kitchen shelving was pine, finished with several coats of clear (shellac???) so it could be washed down (but I wouldn't use it as a cutting surface). Both were made by local firms that are no longer in business -- I found them by just walking in and inspecting the samples they already had on the floor.

[highchef]

When I went to Sam's today I saw a table counter high with 4 chairs...was under 300/ and looked really nice. I couldn't see it anywhere in my house, but was intrigued with the idea of it. If you had a tabletop custom made to fit it (I'm thinking butcher block) it could serve a duel purpose. Sam''s is online, I'm sure you can find it there...I can't be sure if the price was for all the pieces, or even if it was for that table and chairs as there was outdoor furniture all around it and like I said I was intrigued, but not interested in buying it for myself. (Emeril..self, I says, do I have a place for this??) check it out.

ok, major screw up. I went to samsclub.com and found it but it's almost a grand including shipping. It is teak though and it's larger than it looks on site and a lot better too.

edit: to enter the screw up. I should have known if I was intrigued by something it was going to be more$ than that!!

Edited July 8, 2005 by highchef (log)

[Jensen]

Our tables (kitchen and dining room) were purchased from a company in Oregon that produces "ready to finish" wood furniture. It's made almost entirely out of alder (a scrap wood from the logging industry). It's not as soft as pine and is hard enough to withstand most wear and tear.

When we ordered our kitchen table, we wanted a smaller top than normal on a pedastal base (or pedestal...neither look right to me at the moment; must need another beer!). At that time, we were able to order the base and the top separately, pretty much guaranteeing that we'd get exactly what we wanted.

The company who did all this was, at one time, called Whittier (Furniture? Wood Furniture? something like that). However, I know that they had another line out under a different name so they might have discontinued the "Whittier" name altogether.

It's probably worth a google search to find out though.

Edited to add that it's also sold under the name "John Greenleaf".

Edited July 9, 2005 by Jensen (log)

[Fat Guy]

I'd consider an alternate strategy. My feeling is that bar stools are universally uncomfortable -- even the best ones don't compare in comfort to chairs where you can place your feet on the floor. People, in general, will not enjoy sitting down to a leisurely meal on bar stools.

The difference in height between a standard table (30") and standard countertops (36") is only 6". Here's what I would suggest: shop around the tag sales, antique markets and auctions and find yourself a gorgeous old farmhouse table that fits your space and is as close to 30" high as possible. With it, you can use standard older chairs that are likely to be much better built than any but the most expensive new chairs.

Then get yourself several very thick butcher block cutting boards big enough for a student to work on. When it comes time to use the table for classes, each student gets a big thick cutting board in front of his or her place, creating a distinct workspace. If you get blocks that are about 4" thick, you'll be pretty darn close to standard counter height.

And remember, 36" standard kitchen counters are too high for a lot of kids, teens and short adults. If you have a 30" table to start with, you can give younger and shorter folks 1/2" cutting boards, and you can keep a mega 6" block on hand for really tall people.

[Dave the Cook]

I'm with Steven on this. I'm not a fan of barstools, unless I know that I'm moving on soon, and it's much easier to raise a work surface than to lower one. This sort of table has the added advantage of being much easier to find in flea markets, where you can get real bargains, as long as you're willing to invest a little sweat equity in refinishing (and you're a fan of serendipity).

[forever_young_ca]

My feeling is that bar stools are universally uncomfortable -- even the best ones don't compare in comfort to chairs where you can place your feet on the floor. People, in general, will not enjoy sitting down to a leisurely meal on bar stools.

Congratulations on the new house. This is an exciting time for you and your husband I am sure.

I am with the others that find bar stools uncomfortable. They are fine for a snack or a short meal. However, if this table is for leisurely sitting or longish meals invest in some proper chairs. As someone who loves to cook and entertain and also suffers from a bad back I can attest to how important comfortable seating is if you want to sit for any length of time.

Also, if this is a kitchen table, make sure it is able to withstand the rough and tumble of every day living. I am with Fat Guy - look for an old farm house type of table. These tables are wonderful to work with because of their size, - great for buffets, great to work on and pile platters of finished food on, and have a very comfortable ambience about them inviting good consersation around the dinner table. They fit very well into a kitchen setting generally. Also their aged patina is such that extra nicks and scratches add to the character of the table. A new table that you have spent alot of money on will not have the same usability as you will be concerned about getting scratches in it.

Just my 2 cents.

Have fun with your new plans.

[Allen]

I agree with most of the comments made so far. A counter height of 36" is not comfortable for seating. While it is used in residential construction, normal bar height is 42" and nearly all restaurant bar stools are made accordingly. That is why barstools are comfrotable in restaurants but not at home.

A farmhouse style table sounds like a good idea. If you are interested in a less expensive maple butcher block top you might try and industrial equipment supplier like Grainger. Wood tops are made for electrical system repair and assembly. However, they are not designed for food contact but this should not be a problem since you will not using it as a cutting board. If you can locate a sturdy base at a sale the top could be modified to match the size of the base.

[Priscilla]

Malawry, this is all very exciting, from the new house to the teaching cooking to the future children at the table!

My kitchen table is a thick beech butcher block slab on chunky tubular Ikea legs. (22 years ago when I bought it it had a beech trestle, which just took up too dang much space under there.)

I really can't say enough about the wonderfulness of having a big old butcher block surface in the kitchen. It can take anything, it can do anything, and I love the look of butcher block, too. (The aesthetic appeal is totally subjective, of course.) I also tend to agree with SS and DtheC about table-height rather than bar-height ... but if you have a vision you must follow it!

A big old farmhouse-style table is beautiful to look at, but seems like, for teaching purposes esp., having enough cutting boards for multiple students to work simultaneously on it would be cluttery.

Will you be providing us your table story as it unfolds?

[maggiethecat]

Will you be providing us your table story as it unfolds?

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Yes, please do! Congratulations, Rochelle.

I'm all for the "farmhouse" table, even if it's never been within hectares of a barn. Looks right, feels right. Last summer I, along with a few other Chicago eGullet types catered a wedding. The kitchen was enormous but had minimal counter space. The owners bought a huge handsome table from Crate and Barrel, and the five of us did some pretty intensive cooking on it for five hours. I was far from the tallest, and even the six three guy didn't complain about back problems -- just foot problems.

And, as I learned from my Nonna-in-law who cooked into her late nineties, there's a lot of cooking prep that can be performed seated!

(I am, however, trying to imagine the perfect widgets that could be slipped under the table legs to raise it if necessary.)

[keeperrox]

If you go with a table that cannot be cut directly on (I would stay away from that just for the clean up and absorption of odor), but don't want the added expense of high-end cutting boards, I suggest checking out Ikea. I hate Ikea for somethings, but love it for others. They have an array of wooden cutting/chopping boards. Plus they have really inexpensive plastic ones that I use for meats. I have the SPÅR butcher block, and although I've used it for a little over a year, with some nominal maintenence (cleaning it pretty soon after use and rubbing with oil once every other month so it doesn't dry out), it still looks nice. It stays out all the time, and people actually complement me on it. It has a nice heft to it so you can get into some heavy duty chopping and not worry about it sliding around the counter. Also, at $20, you wouldn't have to worry about using them for your classes, because they aren't expensive for what they are, and they can be tucked away when classes are over, and your table is still in perfect condition.

Edited July 9, 2005 by keeperrox (log)

[Malawry]

These responses are great, guys. Keep them coming.

Steve, I am blown away at the beauty of those tables--and thrilled with the specs you have shared with me. I may invesitgate custom-built tables, since I had the feeling I wouldn't find what I was looking for independently.

Fat Guy and Dave, you've given me food for thought. There is a restaurant I frequent here in DC where the barstools are comfortable for an entire evening of dining, but these stools are the exception. I do have a formal dining room table with nice comfortable chairs that I inherited from my grandmother, and I thought it might be nice for people to sit at a higher table to interact with me more on eye-level if I am working in the kitchen. Now I am thinking I should go sit on some barstools and think about this more seriously.

Yes, I will post my "kitchen table story" for you all to enjoy. It's a quest that I hope to complete in the next month.

[jackal10]

This is mine. Originally bought at auction in poor condition, the top has been replaced some time ago with ordinary tounge and groove floorboards. No finish - the top gets scrubbed weekly, and it seems t take everything thrown at it. Stains just vanish after a few weeks. Wood is a natural bactericide. Its the hub of the house. We cook on it, work on it, entertain round it - if really formal throw a cloth over it. It seats 8 comfortably Its about 3ft 6inches by 7ft.

The side table you can just see I gought from a builders merchant when they were modernising. Its beech, Cerrently it has the kitchen TV and piles of old magazines and stuff on it.

Edited July 10, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[Malawry]

The quest begins. I went up to Rockville, MD to see what I could see at some of the major furniture chains up there.

Bassett Furniture was my first stop, having been tipped off by a LiveJournal friend that their lines were highly customizable and relatively cheap. They carry a few tables that come in a 36" counter height, and they sell "counter height" chairs to fit them. They are a good value, but the tables I saw were a little more wobbly than I would like. I want a table that can take a fair amount of abuse without shifting every time somebody cuts their steak. I liked the chairs, which are between standard chair height and barstool height. (Bars are usually around 40", counters 36", and tables 30".) It's possible for me to sit in one with both feet on the ground, and I'm 5'6". So I might go back to get chairs there, depending.

Then I stopped into Ethan Allen, conveniently located in the same shopping center as Bassett. They sell beautiful tables, most of them too formal for my needs, and they only sell 30" tables.

Danker Furniture completed today's tour. They have a couple of tables in 36" height, and they are very sturdy, but they are very expensive and I wasn't 100% thrilled with the styling--the tables in question were very contemporary in style, while the cabinets and the living room furniture are not. Hmmmmm.

Jackal10, your table is wonderful. It's a little more rustic than I think would work in my house, but it's great for your kitchen.

[maxanon]

We've got a thick slab of granite for a table. It's a massive beast that can easily seat 6. It's about 32inches high and solid enough that we do a lot of prep on it. Pasta and pastry of course. We also chop and mix and experiment. I love the table. The only problem is the coldness of the marble. But a decent cloth fixes that.

But I would definitely echo the advice of a std table and then raise the surface. It may make more sense.

Good luck.

[LBNoble]

When we were shopping for a new dining table (although I was quite content w/ our 10 yr. old Workbench teak veneer table), I found this company & really wanted to get one of their tables, Antique Tables. I lusted after the beautiful walnut table in the gallery. We ended up getting a Shaker style gathering table from Tom Seeley furniture in cherry, mostly because I could get a compatible sidepiece, the Virginia cupboard. It's built after you order it, so we had to wait a few months, but they're beautiful so it was worth the wait. Good luck with your search...

[Malawry]

Hey LBNoble--did you ever get to the Antique Tables showroom/store? Are the tables as nice in person as they look online? I am contemplating driving all the way out there to check out the Irish table, which looks ultra-sturdy. The tables really are beautiful in a classic way.

I just went by IKEA to look at a bunch of different things, including their tables. The Ekhard table was surprisingly sturdy and reasonably attractive--unlike many IKEA tables, this one is solid wood and the top is a single piece. It didn't budge when I shook the floor model, which impressed me. At $449 it's their most expensive table, but that's still cheaper than the tables anywhere else I looked for the size I want. They don't offer a taller height.

They do offer custom tables--pick out the tabletop you want and then the legs you want with it--for very reasonable prices. And some of the legs are taller for a counter-type table. But none of the tops I saw in the store thrilled me. I really want something solid and I want something quite large--the largest tabletop was significantly smaller than the Ekhard I'd liked.

I also swung by the IKEA marketplace section specifically to check out butcher blocks. They used to carry a beautiful solid block, but no longer apparently--the two I saw didn't really impress. The Spar butcher block comes close to fitting the bill, but I don't like that there are ridges along the short edges--seems hard to keep clean. It's o-kay at $20 but not exactly to my liking, plus it's much paler than the table will be which seems aesthetically undesirable. Exklusivt chopping blocks are smaller, and they really are unattractive--there's a black band around the block and a black undertone to the wood that I found totally unappealing. And it's still $20. I am feeling less confident about getting a lower table and then a bunch of butcher blocks and/or an extra tabletop to raise the table for workspace as a result.

[TPO]

My parents are tall, and they are shopping for a new dining room set. Sets that are higher than normal -- tables and chairs -- seem to be quite popular right now and that's what they are getting. Most are 36 inches and the chairs are designed to fit with them. Since there seems to be quite a selection out there, I would think some are designed to be comfortable even for long dinner parties.

Even if you end up getting a custom table to fit your other requirements, you should be able to find nice chairs instead of bar stools to fit the taller table. Here's an example of a chair designed to go with a 36-inch-high table:

Some people might still have their legs dangling just a bit, but these chairs look like they could be comfortable.

[azlee]

My table is a kitchen/dining room table with a thick frosted glass top and stainless legs by Bulthaup. It measures 3'x6', is perfect for seating six or a big buffet or as a work table. it's perfect for rolling out pie dough after placing a towel filled with ice on the table to chill it. i love my table.

Azlee

I just bought a house today. It has a nice kitchen, but it needs more--it's not large enough for me to do the culinary teaching I hope to do from home in the near future. There's a large "nook" type area for a kitchen table at one end of the kitchen, which then flows into a carpeted living room area. I'd like to get a table that's higher than a standard kitchen table, which can double as an additional island/work table--and then surround it with chairs of barstool height (barstools with backs, basically).

The table I have in mind is extremely sturdy, with a thick wooden top that's easy to keep clean. It shouldn't be glossy since people will actually be working on it and I don't want to have to worry about the finish. A weathered look would be fine. I'd prefer legs that are centered enough to make it easy to sit at the table without banging your knees. There will be children, my own (in the future) and others crowding about this table for cooking classes, so I'd prefer the edges be a little softened rather than sharp and dangerous for little heads. There's enough room for a table that seats 8 in this space, and I'd like to find attractive barstools with backs to match. I want to be able to have an informal dinner party at this table, so I can entertain without leaving the kitchen. (We have a formal dining room with a formal dining room table I inherited from my grandparents, so this table will not be the only table we have for entertaining--but I imagine it will be where we actually spend most of our dining time.)

The kitchen itself is fairly formal, with dark wood cabinets, antiqued copper pulls, and coppery-golden countertops--the fixtures are also antiqued copper-type look. The floors are hardwood and a basic walnutty type color. Unfortunately, both the digital camera and the computer with photo-editing software are packed away, or I'd just take pictures to show ya'll.

We're willing to spend a fair amount of money for this table, and I'd consider getting it custom-made if it's not available on the market. Advice? Ideas? Even if you just have suggestions for who to avoid, I'd be glad to hear it.

I'm also interested in what you personally have for a kitchen table, and how it works for your house.

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[Malawry]

Now that I've looked around at butcher blocks and spent a little time looking at the kitchen and furniture stores, I've decided I really can't compromise--I really do need a 36" tall table to serve as an additional workstation. 30" just won't cut it. There really don't seem to be many rectangular 36" tables out there for under $2000 though. Am I just dreaming here, with a crash back to reality to follow?

Tomorrow, I plan to visit an unfinished furniture store in Martinsburg, WV. They carry a couple of 36" tall tables, including one made by http://www.whitewood.net/.

[Priscilla]

Malawry, have you looked at the John Boos stuff? There are 36"-high worktables in both the residential and restaurant sections.

[TPO]

Now that I've looked around at butcher blocks and spent a little time looking at the kitchen and furniture stores, I've decided I really can't compromise--I really do need a 36" tall table to serve as an additional workstation. 30" just won't cut it. There really don't seem to be many rectangular 36" tables out there for under $2000 though. Am I just dreaming here, with a crash back to reality to follow?

Tomorrow, I plan to visit an unfinished furniture store in Martinsburg, WV. They carry a couple of 36" tall tables, including one made by http://www.whitewood.net/.

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I don't think you have to spend that much money, it just depends on what you are willing to settle for. Counter-height tables are mainstream now, you can get them at JC Penney's for a little over $300. But they aren't going to be exactly what you are looking for.

I think the unfinished furniture shop is a terrific idea, let us know what you find.

[Malawry]

I've finally ordered a table. It should take about three weeks to come in, I hope.

I chose the John Boos SNS-16 table: a maple-top table with stainless steel legs and a shelf underneath, 36" tall, 72" long, 36" wide. It has a 1.75" maple top, and should be stable enough for a lifetime of abuse--plus it's not too bad looking. I would have preferred one with a trestle, but the "breakfast bar" table with the I-beam trestle-type design isn't large enough for my needs.

I'll try to get some photos up of the new table in action when it appears. It's shipped knocked-down, but I'm guessing we'll set it up the day it arrives.