Meringue

[Kerry]

I am writing an article about the use of meringue both sweet and savoury in the commercial kitchen. Do you use meringue in an unusual way? If so, please tell me about it. Does meringue stand up well when used for a large banquet -- no weeping, etc. Do you have an unusual personal recipe that you would like to share? All opinions expressed and recipes shared if published will be given due credit.

Personally I love meringue and find it is a neglected element in the pastry lineup. Mostly I find some kind of lemon or lime pie on dessert menus and that's about it. In my experience it is rarely used in a savory sense. I would like to hear from those of you who use it successfully in either medium.

Please let me know at kvsugarart@aol.com if would like to make comment or contribute thought and opinion.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards to all.

Kerry Vincent

[PassionateChefsDie]

I could rant on for ages when does it stop being meringue? Loads of frozen sweets, mousses, Bavouirs(Spelling), the classic Oeufs al a Neige, meringue cases for fruit, mixed with creme pat etc..

Most of these use Italian meringue. If you mean the classic way as in white and baked will you get any more than what you've mentioned? i.e. Meringue cases. Pavolova, Lemon meringue, Lime Pie, Baked Alaska and general variants as you mentioned and of course Oeufs al a Neige.

Think I need some clarification on your boundarys I feel like I'm trying to remove the yolk from the chicken egg(Without cracking it)! If you just talk about the white meringue chewy through to crisp either bottom or top!

If I take the sugar out add a pinch of salt and some lobster puree and poach them in Bisque is this not a variant on Ouefs al a Neige? How far do you want to take it from a savoury point. To discuss meringues as a pure thing is going to be difficult.

Are they not just whipped egg whites which leads us onto souffles which again can be savoury or sweet.

Stef

[Kerry]

Thank you so much for your comments -- you are right to mention all variants -- that is what I want to address. Please chat on I am interesteed in your thoughts.

Kerry

[jgarner53]

At the bakery where I work, we sell these huge baked meringues (they're bigger than a softball). They're flavored (lemon, lavender, whatever the pastry chef decides on) and swirled with a corresponding colored bit of meringue before baking. I personally haven't had one, but they always look so fascinating to me.

[PassionateChefsDie]

Ok so we'll start with Italian Meringue! The twice the amount of sugar to egg white a fast whisk, so boil the sugar with a little water and anti-crystalizer(Lemon juice etc). When it blows bubbles through the holes in a slotted spoon pour onto soft whipped egg whites with whisk going and a steady stream. Whisk until cold.

The french way in the mixer with the egg whites once the egg whites start going, in a steady stream, just castor sugar(Some use Lemon Juice if you want etc.).

Both methods seem interchangeable though I think the french way gives a crispier result(Not sure!).

So we can pipe it into the classic meringue cases, or be clever and make swans, filled with some form of cream and fruit. The cream being simple pastry cream through to toffee flavoured cream and dark chocolate stripes, with fresh cream and strawberries making an appearance.

We then get to the slightly caramelized chewy top off the lemon meringue pie its sweetness cutting the sharpness of lemon, and some where in between the pavolova. Who's history I know little about but I believe purist use kiwis not sure whether its true and its a New Zealand dish!

Then the magic of its insulating properties as it it keeps the ice cream frozen whilst it browns the surprise being the cold centre of the Baked Alaska!

Then finally shaped with spoons and poached in milk and vanilla from which the custard will be made from, for Ouefs Al A Neige.

Ok end of chunder

As for its application in the frozen side I honestly dont really know. I know it is mixed with other ingredients for a variant of reasons so its use would be down to the recipe. When does it stop being a meringue if its down to sugar then I've got no more legs.

Must add long time since I've been on pastry and its not my passion. I believe weeping was down to too slow cooking or crystals still left, feel meringue it should be silky not grainy.

Stef

[Kerry]

Thank you so much for adding more detailed comment -- I appreciate it.

I see you are from the UK where I once lived for five years. I know the widespread use of dessert meringue is more popular there as it is in my native homeland Australia. In the USA, where I have lived for twenty years -- not so. The reason I chose this for my subject is because most average restaurants offer six flavours of cheesecake as dessert, or some kind of chocolate brownie, a molten chocolate something or other, ice cream; summer or winter it's all the same. Souffles are served but not so often. High end restaurants offer more variety. I may get hammered by some think that there is huge variety available -- but I have travelled more than 100,000 miles around this country by road during the time I have lived here, eaten in all sorts of restaurants ranging from superior a la carte to diners so think I have a reasonable overview. The entire USA can't be measured by city life. For example -- New York with 13,000,000 people may have a more sophisticated lineup of exotic food -- but there is another 260,000,000 million eating elsewhere in the country. So I thought to present some interesting tried concepts to encourage more chefs to include it one way or another. Besides I like it myself at the end of a meal -- it is light and seems more balanced if the main course is heavy. The thought of any kind of pie after a heavy course makes my eyes glaze over. I also need to be in touch with some pastry chefs who are actually dishing up meringue in either savoury or dessert forms -- any ideas?

Like the thoughful chef who wrote from the bakery -- I use dacquoise between cake layers -- which I mention and give the recipe in my book. I am a weddding cake specialist.

Looking forward to hearing more -- please send your personal information, if you would like, to my e-mail address which I listed in the request. I would like to give credit for your inspiration.

Thanks -- Kerry

[PassionateChefsDie]

I really could chunder on for ever most people just get a glazed look and I shut up.

Several of the desserts you mentioned use whipped whites, but as you mentioned about something lighter at the end of the meal. I think this is hard to find in the majority of food serving establishments people want there moneys worth, want to feel full up.

Its left to the higher end establishments who understand that a meal starts at the telephone booking and finishes on the goodbye after petit-fours. Who understand menu composistion working through the mouth watering, onto the star, finished with flourish and style and along the way gentle steps taken.

I've just left a thread talking about UK cuisine, as I pointed out cultarally we eat stodgy heavy puddings, yet the french understand finesse, also most european countries tend to go for the fruit bowl, so good luck on changing a culture .

Back to whipped egg white with sugar, so we have the bench mark of meringue its hard crisp shell. Some like it baked less with a chewy centre others like to slightly caramel them.

Yet whilst it bakes no cracks or movement should you tell, as for weeping I know vinegar in the whites does something!(Perhaps you should play see what the differences are i.e. Vinegar, lemon juice, cream of tartar, pinch of salt, or just plain, French and Italian.)

On the opposite side you have the wonderful whipped egg whites with a enough sweetness to counteract and enhance the starring flavour in the souffle. Whilst these bake, the sides should rise high some say the top flat others dont care. Now personally I'm for the chewy outside of roasted souffle. Others will bain-marie so each spoonful is a warm mousse, the lightness and flavour are all that count. The only problem is the fastest hands to the table and a keen eye to when its cooked are needed.

So you remove the sugar and add a pinch of salt when the egg whites get right blended all smooth, the peaks falling soft quickly, add the savoury. Lobster mousse it so firm it would be an insult to call it a mousse, perhaps a bit of basil. Whisk and yes whisk as you use different ingredients you learn the harder ones to work with. The hardest I found was a vanilla creme pat with praline as soon as the praline hit the egg whites I folded it like a baby.

Eggs generaly confused me when I was learning pastry, what they do in every recipe is almost unique!

My Meringue blog for the day

Stef

Please tell me when to stop!

[Wendy DeBord]

Perhaps my response isn't exactly what your looking for, but I'd like to discuss this alittle to perhaps explain why you may not see these items more on menus. Hopefully that in turn will let you address these issues that I find as obstcles.

I personally love meringues from crispy to chewie. But working as a pastry chef in a very average professional kitchen I'm very handicaped to make meringue based desserts. Lots of issues handicap me from making them:

1. I don't have the spare time in my production (shedule/day) to loose one or more ovens to a low temp. (in the 200F and under range) to properly bake off meringues. I need to crank out items quickly. If I leave items in my oven overnight to dry (which would seem most convient) I run the risk of someone ruining them before I enter the building. I've left notes on oven door only to have them disapear or not be understood by the hot side staff. I don't have ovens that are totally dedicated to my use only.

2. I don't have skilled assistants who will follow my exact dirrections. They don't reseal the container I've stored dry meringues in......so they become exposed to moist air, ruining them quickly. I don't have assistants who have the patients or time to properly cut a meringue composed dessert. Typcially the salad person is plating my desserts and a cold french knive is all they have at their disposal (no sink, no serated knives). I don't have time or equipment to make individual portioned desserts to avoid the previous problem mentioned.

3. Meringues used soft........are the most complicated for me to use in daily service. They require being made fresh daily and sometimes more then once daily (although they are easy to serve unlike dried meringues). Meringue used as a frosting or topping weep in time (usually before 10 hours of being made)......shortening your shelf time, creating more work for the pastry chef. (I unforunately usually turn to instant meringue powder or egg white powder instead of using fresh whites to extend out my shelf time. Because those "instant" products are more stable over time. Then I'm losing some taste and texture.) Again, I have a hard time getting my assistants to cover these properly and a moist meringue takes on off flavors from refridgeration very quickly.

4. This limits me pretty much to making daquiose or cake like meringues to be used in cakes or tortes. These types of meringues don't require drying in a low temp. oven. These types of meringues hold best in the freezer. Once I take the torte out of the freezer containing the daquiose I've only got 2 days before it becomes too moist and sticky where it's becomes unmanagable to slice. That happens because of the typical high humidity in our coolers.

In an ideal world I'd love to make every dessert item fresh daily and have skilled help to plate nicely composed desserts. Unforunately that only happens in the highest end restaurants and bakeries. Customers (in general) don't understand nor want to pay for the skill and ingredients involved with high end baking. I don't have assistance in my job, I have to cover myself being ready for unplanned happenings and events that constantly come my way. I have to keep what I do and how I do it scaled down to an art to survive in how demanding my job is. But then I consider myself lucky to have a job because of how few there are now a days.

HTH

Oh and your right. Cheesecakes and anything gooey chocolately sell far better then a meringue dessert. I sort of think people are no longer exposed to meringue desserts and aren't familar with them or the different types of meringue. Therefore they don't order them enough to keep them in demand and on menus. That could be said about much of what Americans choose to eat and not eat. The American diet seems to be alot different then other cultures.........for lots of reasons....mostly bad ones. American kitchens cater to whats profitable as far as sales with little concern for anything else.

[Pam R]

I use meringues at work - but nothing too imaginative.

In the restaurant (no longer open) we always had individual lemon meringue pies (tarts) in the showcase. Almost always had one form of daquoise tort.

When we were catering large weddings, one of the most popular just after dinner desserts (served after a sit-down meal, a couple hours before a full pastry table) was an individual meringue basket (pavlovas sort of). Filled with either a spiked whipped cream or lemon filling and topped with seasonal fruit. 350 of them going out in 10 minutes.

Meringue is also the perfect Passover dessert - so I always bake a bunch of small baskets, large baskets and meringue cookies for the holiday.

[Pam R]

American kitchens cater to whats profitable as far as sales with little concern for anything else.

←

Then it would benefit restaurants to introduce meringues to their customers - they are far more profitable than cheesecakes.

[simdelish]

Wendy, you are right on all those counts. I think most of us have those problems. You in particular are having to deal with volume and production, and economics (labor)-- not an easy task, and one that, as you say, basically eliminates things like meringue products.

I sort of think people are no longer exposed to meringue desserts and aren't familar with them or the different types of meringue. Therefore they don't order them enough to keep them in demand and on menus. That could be said about much of what Americans choose to eat and not eat.

←

I guess I'm a sucker for punishment... but that's precisely one of the reasons I put meringue in my menu. I love it, and I want others to know it, understand it, and love it like me. I've said this before in many other threads... but I keep trying to educate the public. If I do/can, then it's to my benefit, as well as theirs.

(Currently I have 3 items on my dessert menu, out of 6, that have meringue in them. I intend on getting a souffle on the menu down the road, but first I need to train my staff better)

[Wendy DeBord]

American kitchens cater to whats profitable as far as sales with little concern for anything else.

←

Then it would benefit restaurants to introduce meringues to their customers - they are far more profitable than cheesecakes.

←

I agree meringues are inexpensive, therefore profitable. But I meant profitable in the volume of sales. Nothings profitable if it doesn't sell.

Again, I love meringues of all types and I agree that it is under used. I fully support anyones and everyone interest in educating and offering meringues on dessert menus. I just wanted to explain a little from the pastry chefs point of view. I dearly wish I had the circumstances/job that allowed me to do any dessert based on quality only.

[Kerry]

Perhaps my response isn't exactly what your looking for, but I'd like to discuss this alittle to perhaps explain why you may not see these items more on menus. Hopefully that in turn will let you address these issues that I find as obstcles.

I personally love meringues from crispy to chewie. But working as a pastry chef in a very average professional kitchen I'm very handicaped to make meringue based desserts. Lots of issues handicap me from making them:

1. I don't have the spare time in my production (shedule/day) to loose one or more ovens to a low temp. (in the 200F and under range) to properly bake off meringues. I need to crank out items quickly. If I leave items in my oven overnight to dry (which would seem most convient) I run the risk of someone ruining them before I enter the building. I've left notes on oven door only to have them disapear or not be understood by the hot side staff. I don't have ovens that are totally dedicated to my use only.

2. I don't have skilled assistants who will follow my exact dirrections. They don't reseal the container I've stored dry meringues in......so they become exposed to moist air, ruining them quickly. I don't have assistants who have the patients or time to properly cut a meringue composed dessert. Typcially the salad person is plating my desserts and a cold french knive is all they have at their disposal (no sink, no serated knives). I don't have time or equipment to make individual portioned desserts to avoid the previous problem mentioned.

3. Meringues used soft........are the most complicated for me to use in daily service. They require being made fresh daily and sometimes more then once daily (although they are easy to serve unlike dried meringues). Meringue used as a frosting or topping weep in time (usually before 10 hours of being made)......shortening your shelf time, creating more work for the pastry chef. (I unforunately usually turn to instant meringue powder or egg white powder instead of using fresh whites to extend out my shelf time. Because those "instant" products are more stable over time. Then I'm losing some taste and texture.) Again, I have a hard time getting my assistants to cover these properly and a moist meringue takes on off flavors from refridgeration very quickly.

4. This limits me pretty much to making daquiose or cake like meringues to be used in cakes or tortes. These types of meringues don't require drying in a low temp. oven. These types of meringues hold best in the freezer. Once I take the torte out of the freezer containing the daquiose I've only got 2 days before it becomes too moist and sticky where it's becomes unmanagable to slice. That happens because of the typical high humidity in our coolers.

In an ideal world I'd love to make every dessert item fresh daily and have skilled help to plate nicely composed desserts. Unforunately that only happens in the highest end restaurants and bakeries. Customers (in general) don't understand nor want to pay for the skill and ingredients involved with high end baking. I don't have assistance in my job, I have to cover myself being ready for unplanned happenings and events that constantly come my way. I have to keep what I do and how I do it scaled down to an art to survive in how demanding my job is. But then I consider myself lucky to have a job because of how few there are now a days.

HTH

Oh and your right. Cheesecakes and anything gooey chocolately sell far better then a meringue dessert. I sort of think people are no longer exposed to meringue desserts and aren't familar with them or the different types of meringue. Therefore they don't order them enough to keep them in demand and on menus. That could be said about much of what Americans choose to eat and not eat. The American diet seems to be alot different then other cultures.........for lots of reasons....mostly bad ones. American kitchens cater to whats profitable as far as sales with little concern for anything else.

←

Wendy your comments are just as important as anyone else's and the pros and cons have to be addressed. Thank you for sharing.

Kerry

[Kerry]

At the bakery where I work, we sell these huge baked meringues (they're bigger than a softball). They're flavored (lemon, lavender, whatever the pastry chef decides on) and swirled with a corresponding colored bit of meringue before baking. I personally haven't had one, but they always look so fascinating to me.

←

Jennifer -- can you tell me what you call these huge meringues and are they made just as a cake alternative? I can just imagine one sitting on top of a bed of fruit salad and lashings of whipped cream -- better than a banana split. What is the name of your company so I can quote the use -- and your name if you would like. You can e-mail me privately if you would prefer kvsugarart@aol.com. Thanks a bunch for your comments -- keep them coming. Kerry.

[pastrymama]

Hi Kerry, I ran into an article on Pastry Scoop about meringue and I remembered about this topic. The article is pretty good and you should read it if you haven't already.

The way I use meringue in my desserts are pretty ordinary but also a little unique. I make a Swiss meringue to top individual pies and tarts, The unusual part is when I am warming the egg whites and sugar I let it get really hot, the whites start to look like gelatin, I do stir it often while warming to make sure the sugar is totally disolved, then I whip in the mixer until it is cool. I keep it in a pastry bag in the reach in to top individual pies and tarts a la minute. Then I burn it with a torch. It keeps at least two days sometimes three.

I make meringue sticks with and without nuts to use as garnishes on desserts.

I make meringue sheets also with or without nuts and cut into small pieces or crumble. This I use as a base for ice cream that is a part of a plated dessert to keep it from sliding around the plate. The sticks and sheets can be made during a slow time and kept in a plastic container with a dessicant, I use limestone covered with parchment.

I also make French meringue ghosts for our Halloween kids party. I pipe the meringue in a ghostly shape over a sucker stick. Then dry in a low oven. Then pipe small chocolate eyes and a mouth. The kids love them and they don't make a melt and make a mess like chocolate would.

I make French meringue discs to make individual desserts layered with mousse and berries and chocolate etc.

I love the meringue that Ohmyganache gave the recipe and technique for that is used for Floating Island. You can cut it into any shape and it keeps for a day easy.

I have been a pastry chef for many years and I have never seen meringue used in a savory way, I would sure like to know how if anyone does use it that way.

I hope some of my rambling will be of use to you. Best of luck with your article.

Marilyn

[cathrynapple]

meriengue was a huge part of my childhood. my grnadmother would make lemon meriengue pies with the thickest layer of merienge on top. i'd help her make extra an eat it raw.

and the giant, swirled, pink vanilla meringues (topped with silver balls, of course) were present ast every childhood birthdya party i coudl remember. meringue is so romantic!

to those of you who are using it in your restaurants, i applaud you.

[Boodles]

Yet whilst it bakes no cracks or movement should you tell, as for weeping I know vinegar in the whites does something!(Perhaps you should play see what the differences are i.e. Vinegar, lemon juice, cream of tartar, pinch of salt, or just plain, French and Italian.)

←

Anyone got any insight on what the differences between vinegar, lemon juice, cream of tartare and salt are?

[Kouign Aman]

I've never seen or thought of a savory meringue before, but now I'm wondering about a basil flavored floating island on a cold fresh tomato soup (like a very simplified gazpacho). Or a curry flavored one (I'm concerned that the herb would be too oily to make a basil one).

[miladyinsanity]

Can somebody point me to a meringue recipe for meringues that are Big and have Chewy centers?

[reenicake]

Meringue has many applications by itself and as a component of desserts -- watchword FAT FREE!

Many pastry depts have a meringue-based dessert on the menu to use up leftover whites. I remember we liked to have garnishes and petits fours of dried french meringue becaue they could be made ahead to provide crunch and kept well as long as they were dry.

Swiss meringue and Italian meringue are great to fold into Bavaroise and mousse (chilled or frozen) to get that fluffy texture without increasing the whipped cream, and as basis for buttercream. Getting the syrup hot enough for Italian or heating the whites/sugar to 140 gets rid of safety issues with raw eggwhites (always a concern with uncooked pie topping meringue.)

Swiss merigue can also be put through stencils like tuile batter and baked until dry. Faster than piping and cleaner more architectural shapes possible.

I like to flavor meringue strongly to offset the sugar -- cocoa powder and ground nuts yeah, but dried herbs and spices like cinnamon, chili flakes, and dried crumbled thyme are nice. Dry it out and spiced meringue is like pop rocks!

Savory applications don't usually use the standard 1:2 white to sugar ratio, but just enough to stabilize the whites. I've seen them (in the stencils mentioned above) as a surprise layer of stacked whatever; makes a natural pairing with hollandaise or mayonnaise type stuff because of the flavor balance (and of course the optimal egg usage).

Cream of tartar, vinegar and lemon juice all strengthen the walls of the bubbles by partially denaturing proteins.

[Tri2Cook]

This may be a dumb question but I don't mess with meringue for the purpose of just being a stand-alone baked meringue very often so I'll ask anyway. I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to make dry (or at least firm) baked meringues using a liquid sweetener (honey or agave nectar) instead of sugar. They would be thin, small and will probably contain coconut. Making an Italian meringue using honey or agave to replace the water and sugar (I've done it with honey before for buttercream), piping it in thin discs and baking it like standard meringues seems like an obvious starting point but I've never actually done it. I would prefer crisp but can live with firm and chewy. I have no problem with experimenting for this one but I've found that most things I'm curious about have already been done/discussed/brainstormed/conquered here so I thought I'd ask in case I can save myself some time.