Small Town Dining -- Spare Me

[abadoozy]

Interesting premise, Busboy, although I'm not sure that the lifeblood of small-town restaurants is in tourists. I don't think tourists carry this town, for example, although they do help. We're simply not that much of a tourist destination (thank God!) No, I think the trick to opening a really good restaurant here is capturing the local clientele. But what do I know? I'm far from an expert, I just like to eat.

And, for what it's worth, this is a college town too. But I respectfully disagree with the idea that a college town can't be rural.

[Busboy]

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with much of it (how can people who've never been in a good restaurant understand good restaurant service, for example), but then I think about good home cooking, and the fact that there are good home cooks all over, so plenty of people have at least some experience of tasty food. I would speculate that people who become cooks for a living have some interest in good food...How does that translate into the dreck so many serve in so many mediocre restaurants?

I don't say this to be argumentative, merely because I find it puzzling.

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You're not argumentative at all. In fact, after I wrote that, I was thinking about the same thing. Obviously not everyone who grows up in a small town turns into a tastebud zombie, since *I* didn't , but there are so many who simply don't think outside the box.

I think maybe part of it is that people learn not to associate good food with restaurants. I know my 70-year-old father doesn't; he hates going out, and a lot of that is because he doesn't think the food is as good as the stuff my mother makes. My mother could be the poster child for "good home cook." She doesn't make fancy food, and she doesn't have a huge repertoire, but what she does make is excellent. The sad fact is that they don't expect the same when they go out. It's like they don't go out when they want good food, they go out when they don't feel like cooking at home, and they expect that the food will be bad.

As far as how it translates into the dreck... I honestly don't know. I'm trying to think of some of the local places, and one thing that stands out is that a lot of the more popular restaurants here are second or third generation restaurants, places that someone's parents or grandparents started and now the children own them. So maybe they were really good back in the day, but over the years the kids don't show the same dedication or knowledge as their parents did, but enough people still go there out of habit to keep them in business. The made-from-scratch marinara of 1962 has been replaced by Sysco, and the meat is three grades lower than it used to be, but the name of the restaurant is the same and they still serve strong drinks, that kind of thing.

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A couple of years back, the family stayed at the Lodge at Oregon Caves, near the major metropolis of Cave Junction, Oregon. It's a beautiful old place built during the depression, I believe, and it has a "fine dining restaurant" (more info here), that we wandered into because there was ten miles of wining road between us and Cave Junction and, once you got there you weren't exactly on restaurant row (cool Womyn-oriented ice-cream shop on the main drag, though).

They may have improved since then (the menu looks slightly different) but the dinner was immensly bad. Don't get me wrong, as arrogant as I sound, we took it all in good humor and were scrupulously polite and drank the local wine and tipped well and had a fine old time of it all.

And we came to that same conclusion.

As hard as he is trying to live up to his conception of a sophisto French waiter, how can some teenager who grew up in Cave Junction possibly know how to serve wine (wine service always seems to bring out the absurd in these places). And the cook? I'd guess he's a local boy himself, whose made the jump up from Art's Red Garter (the kind of one-stop diner counter/"fancy dining room"/private room for the Rotary Club and wedding recetpions place you see around) whose never been to dinner in San Franciso or Portland to eat well.

People at a lot of these places are just trying to play way over their heads without much idea what a real filet in demi-glace is supposed to taste like or, sometimes, how to open a bottle of wine with a corkscrew.

In my greatest fantasy, I get the job as restaurant manager at the lodge and spend two years living amidst the old-growth trees, sourcing local products and patiently turning the restaurant into a great, off-the-beaten-track gem.

[abadoozy]

Oh, did you ever hit the nail on the head with that one, busboy. And it's not just food & restaurants - it's everything. From restaurants to car dealerships to realtors to just about any retail establishment, you can see the effects of the lack of competion in a small town. When you're the only store around, it doesn't matter if you know what you're doing or not - people are stuck. And let's not even get into the amount of nepotism that goes on. Suffice to say that if you're related to one of the old, local families, you have advantages that an out-of-towner or less prestigiously-connected local will never have.

[jsolomon]

Oh, did you ever hit the nail on the head with that one, busboy. And it's not just food & restaurants - it's everything. From restaurants to car dealerships to realtors to just about any retail establishment, you can see the effects of the lack of competion in a small town. When you're the only store around, it doesn't matter if you know what you're doing or not - people are stuck. And let's not even get into the amount of nepotism that goes on. Suffice to say that if you're related to one of the old, local families, you have advantages that an out-of-towner or less prestigiously-connected local will never have.

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You're right, to a certain extent, abadoozy, but you miss one thing: in small towns, EVERYONE has access to a vehicle. It may not be a car, it may only be a lawn tractor, but it will get them down the road. My hometown in central Nebraska (population 390) is a very good example. We had one bar/cafe. The service was mediocre during lunch, and the food matched. At night, the service in the bar was atrocious, and the prices were not that great, either.

So, everyone went 10 miles up the road to Anselmo, or 10 miles down the road to Broken Bow, and within 8 months of opening under new management (following a retirement/sale) the cafe/bar was closed. None of us are that stuck in a small town, remember, when we go 10 miles, it's definitely at or above the posted speed limit which is most certainly not 35 miles per hour. We have wide open spaces to go our 10 miles in.

[therese]

I think maybe part of it is that people learn not to associate good food with restaurants. I know my 70-year-old father doesn't; he hates going out, and a lot of that is because he doesn't think the food is as good as the stuff my mother makes. My mother could be the poster child for "good home cook." She doesn't make fancy food, and she doesn't have a huge repertoire, but what she does make is excellent. The sad fact is that they don't expect the same when they go out. It's like they don't go out when they want good food, they go out when they don't feel like cooking at home, and they expect that the food will be bad.

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My grandparents (who were from southwestern Virginia) never ate in restaurants, and the mere idea of doing so filled them with horror. Not only did restaurants serve substandard food (store-bought produce and meat, stale baked goods, margarine instead of butter) that was poorly-prepared (typically by a male, not the natural order of things---why didn't he have a real job? was he an alcoholic?), but eating there labeled you as either too shiftless to cook (if you were a woman) or too ugly or spineless to marry a woman who'd cook for you (if you were a man). A couple dining in a restaurant evoked all sorts of dark scenarios: were they having an affair? Were they plotting a crime?

Even when traveling (to visit family, of course---there was no such thing as an actual vacation) the woman was expected to have packed sufficient food for the trip and thereby avoid eating bad restaurant food.

That said, I've had some pretty terrible meals in rural France. One of my worst meals in recent memory was in a small town in Languedoc, the name of which has fortunately been erased from my memory.

[therese]

You're right, to a certain extent, abadoozy, but you miss one thing: in small towns, EVERYONE has access to a vehicle...None of us are that stuck in a small town, remember, when we go 10 miles, it's definitely at or above the posted speed limit which is most certainly not 35 miles per hour.  We have wide open spaces to go our 10 miles in.

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In Nebraska, sure, but not in the mountains. Ten miles is a long way on mountain roads with hairpin turns, never mind the fog that rolls in many evenings.

[Carrot Top]

I don't want to be a drag, but feel that yet another unfortunate fact regarding this phemonena of the unfortunate food that is found in the small/rural/off the beaten track towns (even such a town as Lexington, VA where there is a good amount of old money here and there, and there are colleges though those colleges are small and fairly conservative).

The restaurants that do open, that are of the level that would make an experienced traveller or demanding eater pleased, generally have a very hard time going it. Particularly with the locals and particularly "off-season".

Sourcing local products is not easy, for the people that grow mostly do so for themselves and their families, and do not want the bother of working/growing to a schedule. Sourcing local help is not easy, for in the college towns the labor force disappears during summer (which is likely to be the busiest time for these places due to visitors driving through) and even during the other seasons, unfortunately there do not seem to be the same amount of hungry young (or even old!) people desirous of a job waiting tables or learning to cook fine things as there seem to be in metropolitan areas. And finally, so many of the locals simply do not go to eat at these places. For the majority of people (aside from landed gentry (sic), as I mentioned before. . .which in one small town that I lived the local lawyer informed me was the equivalent of the local elementary school principal whose salary was about $40,000. per year) simply do not have the money to do this very often, or do not think that fine dining is where they should spend it if they do have it. They do not feel that they "belong" in these places. They just don't feel all that comfortable there.

Anyone is free to argue my viewpoint on this, of course. My knowledge is only based on eight years of living in this sort of place and of speaking to the owners of such places as chef-to-chef.

I like the idea of a off-road guide, Busboy. And I think that one could be well started just by going through the annals of eGullet and sourcing the good regional restaurants in the regional forums, if that is something that would be possible and desireable to anyone who was involved in such a project.

It is a crying shame to live in this great country and to have to travel the byroads and be so often disappointed in even the desire for a simple meal.

Edited to add: I seem to remember Holly Moore and someone having a discussion about an off-road guide some time back, a small niche guide I think it was. . .

Edited July 6, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[scordelia]

One of the best meals I have ever had was in Walkersville, WV at the Stone Farm.

Stone Farm B&B

My husband and I were driving across country and had decided to stay at this place and what a treat! The farm (it is a working farm) is at the bottom of a hollow with a little stream running through it. In the evening, we put the leftovers at the bottom of the mountain and watched a family of foxes come out. Deer were everywhere. And Lionel and Sandy could not be nicer (no booz though, but I did not mind as I was 7 months pregnant).

Dinner was grilled wild turkey, crappie (it's some kind of fish) and fresh garden salad. Sandy made a wild apple pie for dessert.

Breakfast was homemade biscuits, grits, venison ham (smoked in his own smoker), red eye gravy, fresh eggs (I fetched the eggs from the hen house), and homemade grape jelly (made from the grapes in their arbor). They even gave us some jelly, pickles and things to take home.

And it does get much more rural than Walkersville, so there is good food in rural America.

[therese]

One of the best meals I have ever had was in Walkersville, WV at the Stone Farm...Stone Farm B&B...there is good food in rural America.

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Absolutely. Note that you weren't really eating in a restaurant, but in a home.

[scordelia]

True, but on that trip, my husband and took a whole week to drive from Chicago to DC (this is normally about a 14-15 hour trip), and we drove all over Kentucky and West Virginia. We had a bad meal in Paris, KY, but otherwise the food was great! We did stick to southern cooking and sought out little places like churches that had a little lunch counter, the woman with a diner in her trailer (she had two--lived in one and served in the other), the Beaumont Inn in Harrodsburg KY (been in the family for 4 generations), etc.

[goldie]

I have been following this topic with a great deal of interest. I lived a big part of my life in small rural towns in eastern Kentucky and the UP. As an adult I've had the good fortune to travel around North America a fair amount and have spent some time in Europe. I think there is good food and bad food to be had everywhere.

When I was a kid we moved around a lot and all of our "vacations" (always to visit grandparents in Oklahoma or the UP) involved long road trips. Sure, we ate our fair share of lousy fast food, but we also ate really well in some rather rural areas. The best road food we had was when travelling with my Oklahoma grandma. She, like the above poster, could sniff out a good meal like no one I've ever seen. We never were trying to make time, so she'd see an interesting road and we'd take a detour for awhile. One day in Arkansas she found a church dinner that was flat amazing. She always said that the key was to eat what was good locally (well not in those words, but that was the gist of it). For example, she would no more eat fried okra in New England than expect homemade clam chowder in Kentucky. We ate in a lot of cafeterias and mom and pop type places. Because she had a lead foot, it was usually police officers who gave us dining recommendations. Also, I expect timing was key- we didn't travel in the winter much so produce was generally better. We were constantly hitting roadside stands for whatever was fresh because she didn't believe in chips, etc. for snacks.

Recently we were in the Netherlands with the kids and had terrific food at almost every meal. Actually, I think being with kids helps because (unless they are the kind who will only eat under the golden arches) you have to go to more casual places and often those places are regional and where the locals eat. The last couple of times we were in Italy that certainly was the case. Also, I'm a big proponent of grocery shopping and eating picinics, but that's a different thread.

So basically, my experience has been that the best way to eat in rural areas is to eat things grown locally and to keep it pretty simple. Breakfast is often a good meal on the road (although coffee can be a huge problem). Also, if you are in an area with a large concentration of one ethnic group it is a pretty good idea to pick one of those restaurants. I think it is fun to try out different regional foods. Sure sometimes it can be lousy, but often it is really good and you learn something along the way.

[jsolomon]

In Nebraska, sure, but not in the mountains. Ten miles is a long way on mountain roads with hairpin turns, never mind the fog that rolls in many evenings.

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Feh. The natives are resilient and adaptive. They will and do adjust their travel times and routes to suit the conditions and their needs. That's how they live there.

[therese]

In Nebraska, sure, but not in the mountains. Ten miles is a long way on mountain roads with hairpin turns, never mind the fog that rolls in many evenings.

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Feh. The natives are resilient and adaptive. They will and do adjust their travel times and routes to suit the conditions and their needs. That's how they live there.

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Exactly. They stay home and eat great food. I know because I lived there myself. It's not a question of time and effort, it's a question of imminent death.

[jsolomon]

Exactly. They stay home and eat great food. I know because I lived there myself. It's not a question of time and effort, it's a question of imminent death.

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I still hold that there is a sufficient amount of bad home cooks in the small town/rural areas to produce a sufficient number of bad professional cooks in the small town/rural areas to be noticed and brought up in this thread.

Actually, this has gone significantly tangential from my post that competition in a "one-horse town" is a trivial argument.

[joiei]

People at a lot of these places are just trying to play way over their heads without much idea what a real filet in demi-glace is supposed to taste like or, sometimes, how to open a bottle of wine with a corkscrew.

In my greatest fantasy, I get the job as restaurant manager at the lodge and spend two years living amidst the old-growth trees, sourcing local products and patiently turning the restaurant into a great, off-the-beaten-track gem.

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Maybe you should talk to them about doing some consulting. You could change lives, influence a local economy, and spend some time in a very beautiful part of Oregon.

[Busboy]

People at a lot of these places are just trying to play way over their heads without much idea what a real filet in demi-glace is supposed to taste like or, sometimes, how to open a bottle of wine with a corkscrew.

In my greatest fantasy, I get the job as restaurant manager at the lodge and spend two years living amidst the old-growth trees, sourcing local products and patiently turning the restaurant into a great, off-the-beaten-track gem.

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Maybe you should talk to them about doing some consulting. You could change lives, influence a local economy, and spend some time in a very beautiful part of Oregon.

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Sadly, that's not going to happen any time soon, for a number of reasons (including the fact that my restaurant work credentials are now more than a decade old).

But, perhaps, someday, after the kids are out of college (though the boy does want to check out OSU and Lewis and Clark!), after a couple of visions and revisions ...there will be time.

[hjshorter]

In my greatest fantasy, I get the job as restaurant manager at the lodge and spend two years living amidst the old-growth trees, sourcing local products and patiently turning the restaurant into a great, off-the-beaten-track gem.

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Why has Basil Fawlty suddenly popped into my head?

I still hold that there is a sufficient amount of bad home cooks in the small town/rural areas to produce a sufficient number of bad professional cooks in the small town/rural areas to be noticed and brought up in this thread.

Spot on. How many semirural/rural cooks will have had any culinary training?

Edited July 6, 2005 by hjshorter (log)

[chappie]

I live in a small town (population 10-12,0000) on Maryland's Eastern Shore, and I have the opposite complaint. We are saturated with high-end restaurants, most of which live up to their billing and turn out some amazing food if you're in the mood to shell out $80 and up for two.

My gripe is that, other than the rash of sit-down chains that have flooded the area the past few years, there are very few "downscale" eateries. I usually find myself heading over the bridge in search of cheap but authentic ethnic foods when I'm in the mood for some lowbrow grubbing. I would rather go anywhere than fast food or the Ruby Tuesdays and Applebee plagues.

[touaregsand]

People at a lot of these places are just trying to play way over their heads without much idea what a real filet in demi-glace is supposed to taste like or, sometimes, how to open a bottle of wine with a corkscrew.

That's not limited to small towns. I've seen it in some of America's bigger cities and places I was told were tops.

I've seen it in LA, even at French owned places. A waitress who had just gotten off the Greyhound to make in Hollywood, patiently albeit ignorantly explained to me what French cuisine is and perhaps I just don't understand it, because there is nothing wrong with the food. My husband was sitting right next to me. The owner was an absentee Frenchman.

There is a pastry and dessert place that was once owned by a famous D.C. chef. He sold the place and his name with it. I don't know if it's still open,, the last time we went was about 6-7 years ago. The sweets were awful, disgusting chocolate mousse served in a plastic cup, but the place was still getting written up as one of the best in LA.

When my husband first came to LA he worked at a place that is still considered one of LA's best French restaurants. The chef was on the old Iron Chef series. The guy couldn't really cook. He had a good investor and the money to hire trained staff. His

bouilliabaisse was so so, but his wealthy clientele bought it hook line and sinker because they had never tasted a really good version.

I have a little list of such places in LA.

EDIT: I have to add just one more. There is an upscale North African/French place. When it first opened the place attracted celebrities like flies on shit. The whole concept and menu has little to do with North African or French. It was about capitalizing on 'exoticism'. There's little respect for food or the culinary history. It's not that hard to do a little research. Alot fo the food is common fare, unimaginative Californian fusion with every thing but the kitchen sink thrown in, but costs like 10 times more. But the North African/French exoticism is played up so much that almost everyone I've met who's eaten there thinks it's totally upscale, exotic and authentic.

Edited July 6, 2005 by touaregsand (log)

[Busboy]

People at a lot of these places are just trying to play way over their heads without much idea what a real filet in demi-glace is supposed to taste like or, sometimes, how to open a bottle of wine with a corkscrew.

That's not limited to small towns. I've seen it in some of America's bigger cities and places I was told were tops.

There is a pastry and dessert place that was once owned by a famous D.C. chef. He sold the place and his name with it. I don't know if it's still open,, the last time we went was about 6-7 years ago. The sweets were awful, disgusting chocolate mousse served in a plastic cup, but the place was still getting written up as one of the best in LA.

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Would that be this famous chef?

[Carrot Top]

The question still remains (at least in my mind) as to how financially successful most of these so desired "off-the-beaten-track-gems" could or would be, given the market economy of the areas that one wants to find them in.

In each small town I've lived in, no matter what the geographic location within the US, unless there was a significant local population that was willing (philosophically and emotionally) and able (financially) to support such gems, they are only able to exist as labors of love and finally, empty bank accounts, for there are many small towns with populations that do not meet the criteria.

And in each small town I've lived in, given the choice of going to a local small "gem" or to the local place that did, yes, serve a good breakfast (but with dishwater coffee natch) (and margarine pats for the biscuits, natch) but then would allow the day to disintegrate (obviously only in my mind for these places are packed with locals each day) into a hot and cold buffet for both lunch and dinner. The buffet would always be stocked with tons of canned and frozen foods, rewarmed. . .and perhaps an overdone roast and some fried chicken (again from a box, certainly not freshly-made). This is where people would be happy to go, again and again, to spend their money. . .while the small gems that did try to open would stare across the street in a sort of shocked amazement, till the end would come and their place would close.

This is why, when you ask, "What can be done?" and you suggest a guide. . .well, other than trying to change the people of small towns (which of course is nobody's business but their own); yes, it would be a great idea to have a guide.

Other than a "nose for the thing", which obviously one has to be born with and which must be in working order when it is required to be, this is the best idea yet.

Edited July 6, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[touaregsand]

People at a lot of these places are just trying to play way over their heads without much idea what a real filet in demi-glace is supposed to taste like or, sometimes, how to open a bottle of wine with a corkscrew.

That's not limited to small towns. I've seen it in some of America's bigger cities and places I was told were tops.

There is a pastry and dessert place that was once owned by a famous D.C. chef. He sold the place and his name with it. I don't know if it's still open,, the last time we went was about 6-7 years ago. The sweets were awful, disgusting chocolate mousse served in a plastic cup, but the place was still getting written up as one of the best in LA.

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Would that be this famous chef?

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Yes and the place was totally riding on his name and reputation. I suspect that local food writer's were just reading his press kits.

I want to stress that I have not gone back in 6-7 years

(And Charles, you know I don't like to name names )

EDIT: Also Michel Richard had sold the place and had nothing to do with it, except his name on the sign. I've already stated that, but I want to again.

Edited July 6, 2005 by touaregsand (log)

[jsolomon]

The question still remains (at least in my mind) as to how financially successful most of these so desired "off-the-beaten-track-gems" could or would be, given the market economy of the areas that one wants to find them in.

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You have a justifiable reason to ask that question. In my area, when someone purchases a bar or cafe, they typically purchase themselves a job. It's not uncommon for them to put on a decent spread (usually prime rib special) once a week, but the rest of the time, it's pretty honest, but pedestrian fare. Burgers, ham slices, mashed potatoes, broasted chicken, green beans, iceberg lettuce.

On the other side of the coin, would the usual customers of these joints be in this area/their situation if they were interested in expanding themselves by trying new foods/new things/new ideas?

Granted, there are some, and they are a measurable percentage. But, they are still a small percentage.

[Busboy]

The question still remains (at least in my mind) as to how financially successful most of these so desired "off-the-beaten-track-gems" could or would be, given the market economy of the areas that one wants to find them in...

....This is why, when you ask, "What can be done?" and you suggest a guide. . .well, other than trying to change the people of small towns (which of course is nobody's business but their own); yes, it would be a great idea to have a guide.

Other than a "nose for the thing", which obviously one has to be born with and which must be in working order when it is required to be, this is the best idea yet.

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I think a guide would be a good start, but let me make it clear that I do understand that it's only a partial measure, something that would, hopefully, make the difference between a good restaurant going slowly out of business and being able to survive -- not something that's going to have 2-star chefs fleeing Manhattan for Rockbridge County.

Even with everyone on eGullet clutching their copies of of the new Backroads Dining Guide, no place is going to stay afloat without local support.

I'd guess that that means a reasonable price by local standards -- my Italian joint did have $20 entrees, I believe, so the prices don't have to be rock bottom. I can't see anyplace that requires a necktie surviving long. The menu would have to acknowledge less sophisticated tastes -- hell, there's nothing wrong with a good grilled steak, and even in France nice places will pull together a children's menu. And there would clearly be a breaking in process, both to introduce people to new food and to convince folk that you're not some yuppie snot who has a problem with biscuits and country ham.

A location that allows the (free) view, rather than expensive decore set the tone; a couple of free meals to the local restaurant critic, a couple of charming luncheons for the local Ladies Who Lunch (make sure that ice tea is made right!) and the occasional bourbon on the house for their husbands, a high-end wedding every now and then -- locals and outsiders -- and enough tourists coming through based on their dining guides....maybe it can be pulled off.

Until then, it's still fun to keep looking...when there aren't any church suppers around.

I'm sure people are doing

[Fat Guy]

Busboy, I certainly think that Michelin and the other French documentary sources are part of the picture. But they operate against a backdrop that owes its existence to a number of factors. One is that France is small, and more importantly it is densely populated as compared to the rural United States. If you look at the parts of the United States that offer similar density to France -- like the corridor from Washington, DC, up through Boston -- you can find a lot of great stuff to eat in the small towns. You can see scads of recommendations in Holly's opus, from the Sterns, etc. It's still not as easy to find as it would be in France, but it's there. Now, when you get out into the middle of the US, things get much more spread out. So things are very different. Who knows what would happen if we gave France dominion over a piece of land a thousand miles square with no population in it -- they might all of a sudden find themselves with a culinary crisis on their hands.

I think there's also an issue of breadth and depth at play here. France offers a lot of really good food, but it's all French. You have a little bit of non-French ethnic food appearing here and there, mostly in Paris, but France mostly does one thing and does it well. Chinese, Mexican, etc., foods just aren't big categories when you're on a road trip in France. Even McDonald's in France isn't as good as it is here. In the US, you have quite a lot of culinary diversity built into the system -- even if you just eat at the chains, and even in small towns you typically have non-chain Asian, Mexican, etc., available to you. So there's a different focus. If, like me, you've ever come back from a trip to France and said "I need a slice of pizza, a burger and some fried chicken right now or I'm going to kill someone," then you know what I mean.