Veganism

[Mallet]

No need for apologies. That post simply argued that there should be some rational underpinning in a moral/ethical system, in response to a previous comment. I think we can all agree on a number of rational reasons why killing humans is not ok (like, oh I don't know, the end of civilization?  ).

Ah, but we kill people in war; we execute people. Some people think that's just fine. I think that's very far from being a category on which we can all agree.

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Agreed. With well over 6 billion people on Earth, it wouldn't end the human race (I'll leave aside "civilization" for now) to sacrifice a certain number of people every year to cannibalism. Though I think we'd have few volunteers for that sacrifice.

I maintain that all of us draw a line somewhere, and I would certainly say that those who don't (the Jeffrey Dahmers, Andrei Chikatilos, and Idi Amins of the world) are much more of a danger than those who do. I'm not a vegetarian, but I not only wouldn't support murdering people for food but also have strong compunctions about the idea of eating certain extremely intelligent animals (such as whales, apes, monkeys, elephants). That has to do with my degree of identification with these potential food sources. Another manifestation of that identification is that, because I had pet guinea pigs when I was a child, I'd prefer not to eat guinea pig. I also love cats (which I find have variable degrees of intelligence but complex and in some ways human-like personalities) and wouldn't want to eat one. Actually, I think that the identification that prevents many people from wanting to eat things we feel are very much like us or that we have an emotional attachment to is probably a highly adaptive non-rational trait (though one given to various forms of coherent rationalization), because it's a brake on large-scale cannibalism-murder and a stimulus for humane behavior.

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Of course we all have a personal line about our foods, and I wouldn't presume to take away someone's choice of what to eat or not. But I'm talking about veganism as an ethical philosophy. Not "I personally would not eat this cute bunny", but "it is morally wrong to eat said bunny". I think the distinction is important.

I too sometimes feel a pang of something (not quite guilt but close) with certain of my foodchoices (Christmas dinner with over 40 decapitated lobsters lying around comes to mind ), but this only makes me respect the food I eat even more.

[Pan]

Martin, I think I'm understanding you now. But on the subject of whether ethical philosophy (whether in regard to food choices or anything else) doesn't really hold up under a logical analysis, I bow out.

[Mallet]

Allow me to simultaneously retreat...

[Bernaise]

Richer people can do it

Poorer people often do it - around the world.

Some think it is ethical, more ethical and moral than others.

Others could give a rat's ass.

For people like my parents, born after WW1 - into the ugly heart of the depression and who endured long enough to welcome WW2...frankly, beans and greens and squash when available was their experience for the first 20 years of their lives (and my guess the occasional cat).

They didn't care to see a bean for a few years after all that.

Options are nice.

People who enjoy options are typically rich, and have acess to availability

My diffculty with NA Vegans is the way thir food concerns become the single focus of any given event, dinner party, etc. It's as if being Vegan has given them a personality - "hey look at me, pay me lots of attention for I am vegan". Now the Jains I know - don't bat a lash, they bring food if they are uncertain about what NA offering is being served - and they never feel the need to occupy space waxing on in a droning monotony of their lives having been saved\changed\elevated by their new food lifestyle.

I belong to the category of 'celebrate the fact that you have food and that you can eat with every bite you enjoy'.

Course we could have the discussion about french fry and cheesie eating vegetarian teens but that's another thread I reckon!

[aliwaks]

My diffculty with NA Vegans is the way thir food concerns become the single focus of any given event, dinner party, etc.  It's as if being Vegan has given them a personality - "hey look at me, pay me lots of attention for I am vegan". 

one restaurant I worked at had a vegan server, I usually made staff meal, she got on my nerves, she was a very annoying and tedious vegan (she was a vegan because "you never see a fat vegan", her thourough attention to a healthy lifestyle did not deter her from consuming vast quanties of cocaine) when she would get too preachy I would rub a pork chop on her tofu

[plk]

My fiance and I (who eat meat, dairy, and eggs) are good friends with two other couples (one couple is vegan; the other is vegetarian). We get together about weekly for dinner and our favorite tv shows. We eat wonderful food, weekly, and we always just make it vegan so that everybody can eat everything. We've done particularly well with pizza and focaccia, Indian food, Ethiopian food, and desserts like chocolate cake and "cream" pies. The vegans have made some amazing savory puff pastries that make me hungry just to think about them.

Is this a lifestyle everyone should emulate? Well, no. Not everyone has the same beliefs about what is ethical. I'm sure that most people on this board, at least, can think of *something* they wouldn't eat because it's "just not right". Vegans choose to draw the line at all animals. If we all have ethical philosophies about what is right to eat, vegans are no more moralists than anyone else.

Btw - the vegans and the vegetarians are coming to my wedding in two weeks, where there will be beef brisket, pork shoulder, and a suckling pig. There will also be a ton of vegetarian and vegan dishes there, though, that everyone can eat. It's not tough to be accommodating and makes them feel like we really want them there.

[The Hersch]

The vegans have made some amazing savory puff pastries that make me hungry just to think about them.

Puff pastry without butter? Puff pastry WITHOUT BUTTER??

[plk]

Yeah, I was surprised that it worked. They were seriously amazing, though. Defies all logic, but it's true.