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Cooking Lobster


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We had the "Mac 'n' Cheese" preparation of the lobster with our dinner and the lobster was quite tender.  I don't get it...in nearly 90% of the reviews of Per Se that I've read the past year there's a mention of tough lobster; and in nearly half of those, people say they can't even cut into them with the provided cutlery.  Surely Per Se must be aware that many people have experienced this problem.  Perhaps they're treating like the over-salting problem and chalking it up all up to a problem on the diner's end.

My experience with the lobster-poached butter thing at home is that the lobster does come out more chewy than a lobster that's steamed or grilled, I expect because it's not cooked very long or at a very high heat.

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My experience with the lobster-poached butter thing at home is that the lobster does come out more chewy than a lobster that's steemed or grilled, I expect because it's not cooked very long or at a very high heat.

I don't have the cookbook and haven't had the butter poached lobster at the French Laundry.

Is the famous butter poached lobster at FL and in the cookbook the same “Cuit Sous Vide” preparation we had?

If you're going to serve chewy lobster, why not serve it with a sharp knife, so the guests can actually cut it? Too embarrasing? Are we supposed to rip it apart with our teeth?

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Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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I think "Sous Vide" involves a sealed plastic bag, and boiling water, right? So, not the same preparation, but one also involving relatively low temperatures. The meat (in my limited experience) comes out with a different texture and the meat doesn't firm up as much as I'm used to, making it a little harder to dispose of with a traditional fish knife.

Keep in mind that this may be my bad technique causing this phenomenon, not Keller's recipe.

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I can't say that good butter poached lobster is supposed to be chewy. I don't recall the lobster I had as being particularly chewy. On a more recent example, I had some butter poached lobster at The Inn at Erlowest Lake George, NY. This lobster was extraordinarily flavorful and tender. It was poached in butter with a cook continuously basting it with butter in a pan until it is done. This is different than cooking it sous vide, although I'm not sure why that preparation should make the lobster any tougher.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

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I can't say that good butter poached lobster is supposed to be chewy. I don't recall the lobster I had as being particularly chewy. On a more recent example, I had some butter poached lobster at The Inn at Erlowest Lake George, NY. This lobster was extraordinarily flavorful and tender. It was poached in butter with a cook continuously basting it with butter in a pan until it is done. This is different than cooking it sous vide, although I'm not sure why that preparation should make the lobster any tougher.

My thought would be: for the same reason that a rare steak is tougher than a medium steak (though not as tough as a well done steak). Heat tenderizes the meat, less heat could result in less tender lobster.

I'm on the pavement

Thinking about the government.

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True, but the principle advantage of cooking sous vide is to cook to an exact level of doneness. It doesn't make sense to have that level be one of greater chewiness and increased difficulty of eating. Sous vide should reduce the chances of that happening. If Per Se is cooking the lobster sous vide and it is coming out tough and chewy then either there is a problem with the lobster itself or perhaps they are not doing it right. The other advantage of sous vide cookery is that it can provide better depth and evenness of flavor as well as doneness.

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

Twitter - @docsconz

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I think "Sous Vide" involves a sealed plastic bag, and boiling water, right?

I don't think boiling water is required. I think that was the boil in a bag meals in the 70s!

However, the ingredients are vacuum sealed.

I've not tried it myself; but, from everything I've read, a long slow cook using this method should make the meat more tender, not less.

---

Erik Ellestad

If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...

Bernal Heights, SF, CA

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I think "Sous Vide" involves a sealed plastic bag, and boiling water, right?

I don't think boiling water is required. I think that was the boil in a bag meals in the 70s!

However, the ingredients are vacuum sealed.

I've not tried it myself; but, from everything I've read, a long slow cook using this method should make the meat more tender, not less.

simmering water.

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I believe Keller's original recipe for butter poached lobster was to partially cook the whole lobster in hot but not boiling water. The lobster would "steep" for several minutes. The lobster meat could then be easily removed from the shell and then cooked further in the butter, still at relatively low temperature until done.

His theory is that a lobster cooked at lower temperature is more tender than one boiled.

I have made his original recipe at home several times and the lobster has never been tough. In fact, it is unusually tender.

As Doc said, they are either getting bad lobsters or someone isn't properly minding the sous vide machine.

"These pretzels are making me thirsty." --Kramer

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I think "Sous Vide" involves a sealed plastic bag, and boiling water, right?

I don't think boiling water is required. I think that was the boil in a bag meals in the 70s!

However, the ingredients are vacuum sealed.

I've not tried it myself; but, from everything I've read, a long slow cook using this method should make the meat more tender, not less.

simmering water.

Hmm. I'm not so sure I agree with that. "Sous vide" fundamentally means nothing more than "under vacuum" (generally in cryovac). Although it is most common to cook sous vide items in a water bath, this is by no means the only option. A steam oven works very well, I am told. In addition, although low temperatures (usually substantially below a simmer) are the most widely discussed for sous vide, the technique can be used with a variety of temperatures.

Fundamentally, one major goal behing cooking meat sous vide for a long time at a low temperature is to benefit from long-cooking effects on tenderness while not giving up the flavor and texture benefits of medium-rare. With fish it's often used as a way to ensure that the flesh stays moist. The technique can help fruits and vegetables retain their vibrant colors even though cooked. And it's used along with herbs, fats and other flavors as a way of making sure the flavors are thoroughly infused into the food.

It's not clear to me what advantages sous vide cooking would have for lobster. I'm not well versed in the various proteins and other elements of lobster meat, but I would be surprised to learn that low/slow lobster sous vide cooking had the same effect on tenderness as it can with beef, etc. Lobster tail meat, in particular, does have a tendency to get a bit tough if it is cooked for any length of time -- and it sounds as though Per Se is experiencing some problems in this respect. I have to say that I am a bit surprised they are sticking with this method of preparation if it is not resulting in tender lobster. One ought to be able to cut through a piece of lobster meat with a regular knife and fork. It sounds as though it is a variation on his "butter poached lobster," but perhaps this idea simply doesn't work very well sous vide. As I understand the butter puached lobster recipe, the lobster meat is poached in a butter emulsion at a relatively low temperature and then served when it is just done (it's not being held at the "just done" temperature for any length of time). It seems to me that it might be difficult to tell when "just done lobster" is achieved when using a sous vide setup, and it's also possible that holding the lobster at temperature for any length of time (as is typically done with sous vide cooking) may result in chewier meat.

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From The Gothamist:

"For those of you familiar with Keller's award winning The French Laundry Cookbook, you'll recognize one of the best dishes on the Per Se menu, called "Mac and Cheese." The dish features a technique Keller pioneered in which he slowly poaches fresh lobster in butter over a low, gentle heat. Keller believes that "when you cook lobster violently, the meat seizes up and becomes tough, and you can't get any flavor into it." "

Edited by sammy (log)

"These pretzels are making me thirsty." --Kramer

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Hmm. I'm not so sure I agree with that. "Sous vide" fundamentally means nothing more than "under vacuum" (generally in cryovac). Although it is most common to cook sous vide items in a water bath, this is by no means the only option. A steam oven works very well, I am told. In addition, although low temperatures (usually substantially below a simmer) are the most widely discussed for sous vide, the technique can be used with a variety of temperatures.

Presumably the steam from steam ovens comes from water. :biggrin:

I didn't intend to get into a discussion of sous vide here, there are other threads for that. I was casually pointing out that water is involved in sous vide. :smile:

EDIT: you are correct Sam.

Edited by touaregsand (log)
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Raw lobster is not tough the way raw beef may be. For the most part, lobster, shrimp, scallops, etc. turn rubbery and tough when over cooked. Cook them long enough after that and they weill begin to tenderize again. Squid is something I've had just quickly sauteed, or stewed for a long time. In between, it's rubbery. If the lobster is coming out rubbery or tough, I suspect it's being over cooked because raw lobster shouldn't be rubbery. I don't recall the lobster I had at Per Se being at all tough. As I recall, it was claw meat and it was fricasseed.

I thought many of the "composed" meat, fish and salad dishes at Per Se were not as vibrant as the simpler dishes which were absolutely brilliant. The less complex the dish appeared to be on the plate, the more complex it seemed in my mouth. Why would I rate the meal worthy of a four star restaurant if every dish wasn't the best of its type I've ever had? Simply it's because if one restaurant served an eight or nine course meal in which every single course was better than any thing I'd ever had before there woudln't be any other restaurant in the four star division. There were no "bad" dishes. The least exciting dish was still flawless. The best dishes were as good as I've had. While I'm loathe to say Per Se is the best restaurant in NY, I'm not sure there's one other I'd honestly give the title. If I did have a favorite it might be based on subjective aspects. I'm not sure I'd honestly believe it should be everyone's favorite. The concept of absolute best is not one with which I'm very comfortable anyway.

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Ok. I know that this is not a thread on lobster or sous vide, but seeing as you are discussing this, I think that I have some insight to share on both subjects. These comments are soley based upon my experience.

Lobster

The first time I heard about shelled lobster being slowly cooked in beurre blanc, it was at Le Moulin de Mougins by Roger Verge in the mid 80's. Then I saw it at Bouley in 1989.

Lobster can be tough for a variety of reasons. The age is a factor. Younger lobster is almost always more tender. The older the lobster, the more activity it has had throughout its life, therefore the tougher it becomes. It develops more flavor, but it becomes tougher.

Resting time. If the lobster happens to be cooked at a high heat, it should be allowed a certain amount of time to rest. If not, it can result in a rubbery lobster.

When you buy lobster, you should hold its arms above its head and roll it in wet parchment or newspaper, and store it like that. This will prevent the lobster from moving around too much. If you have ever cooked a lobster and you see that the tail flesh is mushy, this is due to the lobster being caught and held out of the water for too long, unsecured. The lobster flails around and uses alot of energy. Being active in this way, it needs to eat, so it begins to "devour" its own flesh. This chemical devouring will break down the tail meat and make it mushy. So by securing the lobsters arms with the newspaper, it uses less energy and gives you a longer shelf life. You can also store it in seawater, but make sure that you change it often, as the oxygen is used quickly.

Sous Vide

Literally translated- it means "under empty". It is when a piece of meat, fish or vegetable is cooked in a vacuum sealed bag in a temperature controlled liquid. You put one thermometer into the water in which you plan to cook, and one into the bag in which the product to cook is to cook in. I dont prefer lobster in this manner, but I do like meats. There are specific temperatures which I find work best for each item.

First, the water should be 60 celcius. This temperature is below simmering, it is barely shaking. Then I vacuum seal the bag with the item inside. Then, place a piece of double thick weather stripping over the thickest part of the item, on the outside of the bag. I insert the thermo-probe through this weather stripping, and into the meat. The stripping allows me to maintain the vacuum seal on the bag. The I will submerge the item into the water. I cook beef to 56 for medium rare, lamb to 58, squab to 55 and capon or chicken to 60.

Hope this helps.

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The mac and cheese preparation is done sous vide now, too. Here's a quote from an interview with Jonathan Benno:

"We could continue to be in business without [the Cryovac Machine], but it’d be tough. Twenty-five percent of our business is sous vide."

Obviously this method has its merits, or they wouldn't be using it so prolifically. What I noticed was that it allowed the essence of the butter to permeate the meat while not cooking it completely through. Perhaps its one of those things where time is of the essence; a minute too long cooking under these conditions could render the lobster tough. I don't know much about it, but that's my theory.

Edited by iheartoffal (log)

Nothing to see here.

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  • 1 month later...

Hopefully the following sheds a bit of light on the topic of lobsters discussed above...

The lobsters at Per Se are not poached in butter the way it is explained in the French Laundry Cookbook. Instead, they are cooked sous vide, with a knob of butter and Maldon salt. Thomas Keller explains that while actual butter poaching might result in a better product, cooking it sous vide results in a comparable yet more consistent product.

At home, poaching the lobster in beurre monte is a bit tricky, especially if you don't have equipment to keep the beurre monte at exactly 138F the entire time the lobster is being poached....

In the restaurant, an immersion circulator with a digital temperature control keeps the water bath at ~138F.

Both methods, butter poaching and sous vide, as both are both low heat methods, allow a larger "window" or margin for error as leaving the lobsters a few minutes too long won't appreciably change the dish. After all, the cooking medium (butter or water bath) is always at 138-140 and it would be impossible to overshoot that temperature.

The lobsters by the way are blanched and shelled when they arrive, cryovac'd and held in the reach in. They are only cooked sous vide when fired by the chef. They are never "held" in the water bath as there never really is any need. Remember, for the most part, the chefs know the exact sequence of dishes so they have all the time in the world to cook the dishes a la minute...

Edited by Stagiaire (log)

#1456/5000

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At home, poaching the lobster in beurre monte is a bit tricky, especially if you don't have equipment to keep the beurre monte at exactly 138F the entire time the lobster is being poached....

In the restaurant, an immersion circulator with a digital temperature control keeps the water bath at ~138F.

For how long is the lobster poached at least ? What about the Claws?

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Hopefully the following sheds a bit of light on the topic of lobsters discussed above...

The lobsters at Per Se are not poached in butter the way it is explained in the French Laundry Cookbook. Instead, they are cooked sous vide, with a knob of butter and Maldon salt. Thomas Keller explains that while actual butter poaching might result in a better product, cooking it sous vide results in a comparable yet more consistent product.

At home, poaching the lobster in beurre monte is a bit tricky, especially if you don't have equipment to keep the beurre monte at exactly 138F the entire time the lobster is being poached....

In the restaurant, an immersion circulator with a digital temperature control keeps the water bath at ~138F.

Both methods, butter poaching and sous vide, as both are both low heat methods, allow a larger "window" or  margin for error as leaving the lobsters a few minutes too long won't appreciably change the dish. After all, the cooking medium (butter or water bath) is always at 138-140 and it would be impossible to overshoot that temperature.

The lobsters by the way are blanched and shelled when they arrive, cryovac'd and held in the reach in. They are only cooked sous vide when fired by the chef. They are never "held" in the water bath as there never really is any need. Remember, for the most part, the chefs know the exact sequence of dishes so they have all the time in the world to cook the dishes a la minute...

Thank you for your information.

Based on my experience in eating sous vide preparations, I would think that would be an excellent method of preparation for the lobster. Even so, while it is not my recollection that the lobster was particularly tough, it does seem to be a fairly common complaint based on my readings here and elsewhere. Has there been any consideration given to the criticisms mentioned of the dish or alterations made because of them?

John Sconzo, M.D. aka "docsconz"

"Remember that a very good sardine is always preferable to a not that good lobster."

- Ferran Adria on eGullet 12/16/2004.

Docsconz - Musings on Food and Life

Slow Food Saratoga Region - Co-Founder

Twitter - @docsconz

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Lobster should be roasted - ask any good chef, like, say, Senderens.

Killing a lobster prior to roasting: place it belly-down and insert a knife tip through the shell at the junction of the body and tail. Cut the body in half lengthwise, remove the stomach and the intestinal vein, crack the claws. Rinse the lobster well and dry.

All shellfish needs to be heated sufficiently to destroy harmful organisms, but not any longer as to make the flesh tough, all shellfish can become tough by just a few seconds of overcooking.

Rub lobster flesh with butter, and roast in direct heat.

When cooked correctly the shell of a lobster turns scarlet, and its flesh turns from translucent to opaque. Be sure that the flesh reaches an internal temperature of 165°F (minimum for safe eating), NO MORE, an instant-read thermometer can be inserted through the vent at the end of the tail. Allow the cooked lobster to "rest" wrapped loosly in aluminum foil for five minutes. (The small legs should pull off easily on a correctly cooked fresh lobster.)

So simple.

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Lobster should be roasted - ask any good chef, like, say, Senderens.

Killing a lobster prior to roasting: place it belly-down and insert a knife tip through the shell at the junction of the body and tail. Cut the body in half lengthwise, remove the stomach and the intestinal vein, crack the claws. Rinse the lobster well and dry.

All shellfish needs to be heated sufficiently to destroy harmful organisms, but not any longer as to make the flesh tough, all shellfish can become tough by just a few seconds of overcooking.

Rub lobster flesh with butter, and roast in direct heat.

When cooked correctly the shell of a lobster turns scarlet, and its flesh turns from translucent to opaque. Be sure that the flesh reaches an internal temperature of 165°F (minimum for safe eating), NO MORE, an instant-read thermometer can be inserted through the vent at the end of the tail. Allow the cooked lobster to "rest" wrapped loosly in aluminum foil for five minutes.  (The small legs should pull off easily on a correctly cooked fresh lobster.)

So simple.

That might make the lobster over cooked at 165. Poultry should be cooked to 160 and allowed time to rest.

"To invite a person to your house is to take charge of his (her) happiness for as long as he is under your roof."

Brillat Savarin

You don't have to like everything I make, but you still have to eat it.

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Lobster should be roasted - ask any good chef, like, say, Senderens.

Killing a lobster prior to roasting: place it belly-down and insert a knife tip through the shell at the junction of the body and tail. Cut the body in half lengthwise, remove the stomach and the intestinal vein, crack the claws. Rinse the lobster well and dry.

All shellfish needs to be heated sufficiently to destroy harmful organisms, but not any longer as to make the flesh tough, all shellfish can become tough by just a few seconds of overcooking.

Rub lobster flesh with butter, and roast in direct heat.

When cooked correctly the shell of a lobster turns scarlet, and its flesh turns from translucent to opaque. Be sure that the flesh reaches an internal temperature of 165°F (minimum for safe eating), NO MORE, an instant-read thermometer can be inserted through the vent at the end of the tail. Allow the cooked lobster to "rest" wrapped loosly in aluminum foil for five minutes.  (The small legs should pull off easily on a correctly cooked fresh lobster.)

So simple.

That might make the lobster over cooked at 165. Poultry should be cooked to 160 and allowed time to rest.

Fish should be cooked to 140 for well done. 160 is pure death. It might be more safe, but then the flavor is nasty and the texture is tough.

"To invite a person to your house is to take charge of his (her) happiness for as long as he is under your roof."

Brillat Savarin

You don't have to like everything I make, but you still have to eat it.

A Co-Worker from Work

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For how long is the lobster poached at least ? What about the Claws?

Until they're cooked.

Seriously though it would depend on the size of the lobster.

If you're poaching them in butter then you have the luxury of using a probe thermometer to tell you when they've reached 140F. The claws are left for an extra five minutes when blanched [i.e. pour boiling water over the lobsters, remove after 2 minutes, separate the claws, return them to the water for another 5 minutes].

#1456/5000

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For how long is the lobster poached at least ? What about the Claws?

Until they're cooked.

Seriously though it would depend on the size of the lobster.

If you're poaching them in butter then you have the luxury of using a probe thermometer to tell you when they've reached 140F. The claws are left for an extra five minutes when blanched [i.e. pour boiling water over the lobsters, remove after 2 minutes, separate the claws, return them to the water for another 5 minutes].

You should end up with a butter-lobster broth after cooking it sous vide. Do they use it or what are they doing with this liquid gold.....?

Thanks so far....

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At home, poaching the lobster in beurre monte is a bit tricky, especially if you don't have equipment to keep the beurre monte at exactly 138F the entire time the lobster is being poached....rench Laundry Cookbook. Instead, they are cooked sous vide, with a knob of butter and Maldon salt. Thomas Keller explains that while actual butter poaching

In the restaurant, an immersion circulator with a digital temperature control keeps the water bath at ~138F.

Both methods, butter poaching and sous vide, as both are both low heat methods, allow a larger "window" or  margin for error as leaving the lobsters a few minutes too long won't appreciably change the dish. After all, the cooking medium (butter or water bath) is always at 138-140 and it would be impossible to overshoot that temperature.

They cook the lobster in a water bath that is kept at 138-140? It would seem doubtful if that is true that the internal temp of the lobster exceeds the 130's. That's not a cooked lobster. Ignoring any potential health issues that customers would be unaware of, that means you're basically eating sashimi. That may explain why it can be chewy---something that many people say about their lobster at Per Se. Lobster sashimi can be chewey....

Edited by Todd36 (log)
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