Genoise Troubleshooting

[SweetSide]

I have tried this, and what I noticed is that if you add the sugar AFTER the eggs are pale, it usually doesn't curdle--assuming you have room temp eggs. That's why you're supposed to heat the eggs.

Must I use parchment? Wouldn't greasing the bottom of the pan work the same way?

Another thing, how do I know how much syrup to use? The recipe I used gave instructions, but it seems like a lot.

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What is curdling in a genoise? I'm not following that problem. The temp of the heating shouldn't be high enough to cause the eggs to curdle.

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Not the heat.

It's the sugar. At least, that was what I was told. It's never happened to me before and eggs curdle when they see me coming.

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Sure, if you don't keep it moving, the sugar will start to "cook" the eggs. I was taught that once they are combined, they have to keep moving... I've never had them curdle except for the time I had to leave them alone for a while due to an emergency something or other where I got called away. Had to start that part over. Ick.

[sanrensho]

In fact, I was taught by one chef that the reason eggs were heated was that in the past it was the only way to get enough volume when whipping by hand.  With a heavy duty mixer and room temp eggs, they don't need to be heated and not heating will produce a moister crumb.  Warming loosens the egg so that it will whip easier.

SweetSide, are you saying that you skip this process entirely for recipes that require heating the eggs? And you've had no problems?

That would be great news if that's the case.

[SweetSide]

In fact, I was taught by one chef that the reason eggs were heated was that in the past it was the only way to get enough volume when whipping by hand.  With a heavy duty mixer and room temp eggs, they don't need to be heated and not heating will produce a moister crumb.  Warming loosens the egg so that it will whip easier.

SweetSide, are you saying that you skip this process entirely for recipes that require heating the eggs? And you've had no problems?

That would be great news if that's the case.

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I have when my "room temperature" eggs are summer eggs (I have no air conditioning). In winter, my room is only 62F. And only for some recipes such as genoise. So far no problems...

Now, did I just jinx myself?!

[sanrensho]

I have when my "room temperature" eggs are summer eggs (I have no air conditioning).  In winter, my room is only 62F.  And only for some recipes such as genoise.  So far no problems...

Thanks Cheryl! I'll try this in the near future.

[miladyinsanity]

I have when my "room temperature" eggs are summer eggs (I have no air conditioning).  In winter, my room is only 62F.  And only for some recipes such as genoise.  So far no problems...

Thanks Cheryl! I'll try this in the near future.

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That's what I did this time and my KitchenAid whipped up the eggs with no trouble at all. About 5-6 minutes, like my recipe said.

So thanks Cheryl!

But room temp for me is like 28-30 Centigrade, so that may play a part too.

Except that the cornstarch keeps clumping on me. And I sieved it twice!

[Pork Belly]

Sorry that I got into this post so late. Here is my take on genoise.

I always grease and flour the cake pan. Parchment paper is necessary only for easier removal. (I only bake Angel Food type cakes in a dry, ungreased pan because the need for extra volume and greasing the sides will hinder this.)

Heating the eggs with the sugar in a water bath until the sugar is just dissolved will give a higher volume during beating.

After beating, the egg foam should have tripled in volume, very thick and light.

Don't sift the flour too soon ahead of time. This might cause the flour to compact again. I always add a little salt for better flavor. Cornstarch is very difficult to fold and has a tendency to lump.

From this point on, work rapidly.

I find the tall shape of the Kitchen Aid bowl not the best for folding. Using a wider, shallower bowl makes folding easier. Sprinkle about half of the flour on top of the egg foam and gently fold. Repeat this process. Fold until there are no traces of flour in the batter.

As stated in previous posts, folding a small amount of batter into the warm butter will lighten the butter, making for easier folding.

Pour the lightened butter back into the batter. Fold the mixture until there are no streaks of butter. Get down to the bottom of the batter as the tendency for the butter to sink.

The problem with your cake is underfolding. The butter has not been completely folded into your batter, causing the heavier part of the batter to sink to the bottom during baking. Because the dire warning in recipes of "do not overfold", I think most people do not fold their batter thoroughly. If you use the correct folding techneque, don't worry about overfolding. Just fold until the flour and the butter mixtures are well incorporated into the egg foam. It is natural for the egg foam to deflate and lose some of it's volume.

Bake immediately and you will have the perfect genoise.

The amount of syrup to use will depend on when you plan to eat the cake and the type of filling. I use less syrup if I am serving the cake soon. I use less syrup for fillings that are on the moist side such as mousses, whipped cream, pastry cream, and fillings that have fruits; more syrup for firmer fillings such as ganache and buttercream. That is just my taste as I find most genoise cakes a bit too wet.

A suggestion: one of the best book on cake baking is Flo Braker's The Simple Art of Perfect Baking. There are some wonderful recipes but the sections on basic cakes are terrific. Happy baking.

[SweetSide]

A suggestion: one of the best book on cake baking is Flo Braker's The Simple Art of Perfect Baking. There are some wonderful recipes but the sections on basic cakes are terrific. Happy baking.

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I love that book for many reasons.

[McDuff]

A suggestion: one of the best book on cake baking is Flo Braker's The Simple Art of Perfect Baking. There are some wonderful recipes but the sections on basic cakes are terrific. Happy baking.

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I love that book for many reasons.

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Wish it had pictures. I'm full of cornmeal crepes with Meyer lemon curd, salad of lemon and lime zest, creme fraiche and warm caramel sauce and pistachio tuile. Tuiles always taste like hot silpat to me, but everything else, Not bad...

[kaneel]

When i had just moved to america i used to watch her show all the time.

She had a great way of explaining things. I have tried her white cake and it is good. I also made her pistachio mousse......it was great.

I don't think i 've made her geoise yet. For the genoise recipes my favorites are from jack torres and pierre herme.

[Pork Belly]

A suggestion: one of the best book on cake baking is Flo Braker's The Simple Art of Perfect Baking. There are some wonderful recipes but the sections on basic cakes are terrific. Happy baking.

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I love that book for many reasons.

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Wish it had pictures. I'm full of cornmeal crepes with Meyer lemon curd, salad of lemon and lime zest, creme fraiche and warm caramel sauce and pistachio tuile. Tuiles always taste like hot silpat to me, but everything else, Not bad...

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I am not sure we are talking about the same book. I have the originally 1985 edition and it doesn't have any of the recipes that you referred to. There was a revised edition published couple years ago but I don't believe they are in that version either. Nor are they in her other book, Sweet Miniatures, which has photos.

[sixela]

Total newbie baker here and I thank you all for the advice you've offered to other posters...

This weekend is my first attempt at making genoise and I'm confused over my results. My first try was using gourmet's chocolate raspberry ganache cake while my second attempt used Cookllustrated's vanilla genoise.

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/14011

My question is this: Every recipe i look at has contradicting pan preparation/cake removal timing. Gourmet stated to butter the entirety of the pan while cooksillustrated said to skip the butter, as the genoise needs to climb. Which is right? One recipe also states to allow the cake to cool completely in the pan, while the other states to remove it soon after it's taken out of the oven. I found the results of allowing gourmet's chocolate genoise in the pan to be disheartening, as the middle sunk gradually as it cooled and i found the outside of my cake to be very dry and crumbly. I then tried to remove CI's from the pan while still hot. I had stickage issues again.

Can anyone give me a definative answer as to

1. should i or should not I should butter the pan

2. when should i remove the cake from the pan? While hot? warm? cool?

Thanks for all your help.

[ejw50]

I think you see a lot of different instructions because you can do it a bunch of different ways.

I use a silpat and a cake ring (no butter). The bottom doesn't stick to the silpat. The sides do stick, but I just use a flexible metal spatula to separate the cake from the ring.

I wait for the ring to cool, but just because it's easier that way.

In the old days, I just used a piece of parchment on the bottom in a springform pan. Again, the bottom doesn't stick, and you can extract the sides with a flexible metal spatula.

[gfron1]

I almost always use a spring form that is buttered on the side, and buttered on the bottom, covered in parchment and re-buttered. I loosen the form after 10 minutes on the counter and then bring to room temp for full removal.

[jumanggy]

Rob's advice for cooling is the same as mine. I use Flo Braker's recipe and it's been very good to me. Technically I should be greasing, lining, then greasing again (and Braker even says flouring), but all I really do is spray with Pam all over, then line the bottom with parchment because I'm lazy, and it still works like a charm. The advice of CI not to grease at all sounds completely wrong to me.

By the way, I've used both a regular cake pan and a cake ring, and it worked both ways. Of course, I had a cheap sheet pan under the cake ring and a bit leaked under the ring, but not enough to wreck the cake. Ha ha ha.

Your sinking cake sounds like the whole-egg meringue was not stable enough or was not cooked all the way through. Make sure the meringue reaches body temperature and manages to fall in stable, slowly sinking ribbons from the beater. Also, the oven could have been too hot and the cooking time too short, which explains the dry outside and sinking center. (although genoise tends to be on the dry side, by the way...)

Good luck!

[sixela]

Thanks for the help...I'm going to try greasing, but not flouring, my cake pan today. I don't have cake rings or a springform pan, just a 9x2inch cake pan. I will also try removing from pan once it has cooled enough to handle but still warm.

I have flo brakers's "the simple art of perfect baking" . Are there any genoise recipes in there that you all would recommend for a novice baker?

[gfron1]

BTW, I never flour - unless a recipe specifically calls for it, and I never use Pam, just butter, because I hand wash and I can't get that residue off.

[msfurious1]

I just happened to see this blog yesterday while perusing Tastespotting. I thought that I'd post it here if any EG bakers might be interested.

I did bookmark "the recipe" for myself to try sometime in the future.

*angiespangies WD-40 for cake pans. Make sure nothing sticks to your pans.

#11537

Professional Style Pan Release

1/2 cup canola oil or vegetable oil

1/2 cup vegetable shortening

1/2 cup all-purpose flour, or 1/4 cup cocoa and 1/4 cup all-purpose flour

Place all ingredients into a mixing bowl.

Using an electric mixer, beat until mixture is well mixed, and is light and fluffy.

Use a pastry brush or basting brush to apply to pans before baking or cooking.

Store at room temperature in a tightly covered container.

If it seperates while being stored, just give it a quick mix before using.

Lastly, if you choose to store this in the fridge, let it return to room temperature to increase spreadability.

[jumanggy]

Sixela, I've only tried the classic and brown sugar genoise. (I would love to try the orange genoise when I have an unlimited supply of egg yolks). Once you master the classic genoise (heck, forget mastering, just get it right a couple of times), no genoise should be a problem any longer. The classic genoise is more versatile, and the brown sugar genoise is moister and tastier. Your call. Have a soaking syrup on hand.

Rob, I realize I've actually never floured! I'm all for economy of ingredients. Pam (actually, I'm shortcutting for ease of identification-- I use Crisco baking spray) is just quicker and less messy for me. I too hand wash but I don't notice any problems with residue. I wouldn't want to risk using baking spray on my silicone molds, though. That could be gross, I'm guessing.

[Sif]

Regarding sinking, when making genoise make sure you don't slam the ovendoor or open it too soon - and be careful with bumping the filled cakepan too. Especially with a recipe that calls for that much egg yolk and cocoa.

[bibbotson]

I just happened to see this blog yesterday while perusing Tastespotting.  I thought that I'd post it here if any EG bakers might be interested.

I did bookmark "the recipe"  for myself to try sometime in the future.   

*angiespangies WD-40 for cake pans. Make sure nothing sticks to your pans.

#11537

Professional Style Pan Release

1/2 cup canola oil or vegetable oil

1/2 cup vegetable shortening

1/2 cup all-purpose flour, or 1/4 cup cocoa and 1/4 cup all-purpose flour

Place all ingredients into a mixing bowl.

Using an electric mixer, beat until mixture is well mixed, and is light and fluffy.

Use a pastry brush or basting brush to apply to pans before baking or cooking.

Store at room temperature in a tightly covered container.

If it seperates while being stored, just give it a quick mix before using.

Lastly, if you choose to store this in the fridge, let it return to room temperature to increase spreadability.

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This is similar to the "pan grease" we would use in school, although I think we used only equal amounts shortening and flour. Works great, used it at home for years afterward.

Currently in a restaurant kitchen, we just lightly brush soybean oil then flour and tap out excess. Also works great.

[sugarseattle]

i never grease with genoise or sponge cakes, but always grease with butter cakes.

[ejw50]

OK, did a check of the 'authorities' and this is what they say

Dorie Greenspan - butter + flour, remove after 5 minutes

Alice Medrich - Parchment, no butter+flour, remove after completely cooled with flexible spatula (with all her cakes)

Pierre Herme (Larousse des desserts) - no instruction at all.

Rose Levy Berenbaum - butter+flour, remove right away before cooling.

Bo Friberg - didn't see a genoise, but in general butter+flour cool all the way.

If I had to say for sure, I would say it probably doesn't matter all that much.

Edited April 1, 2008 by ejw50 (log)

[gfron1]

Good summary. The confounding factor is which type of pan was used. Aluminum, steel, coated, uncoated, etc. The only thing I can't agree with is the instruction to remove right away. I think any cake, genoise, etc., needs to sit for a bit to set up before popping it out of the pan.

[alanamoana]

you can just use parchment on the bottom without any other kind of pan prep for most cakes. i would say this is how it is done in most professional kitchens (don't know about bakeries...just restaurant kitchens)

the reason you shouldn't butter (or otherwise grease) the sides of a pan with a genoise (or any other cake that doesn't use a chemical leavener) is that there isn't the guaranteed lift that you'll get with baking soda/baking powder. you need to give the cake something to hold on to as it rises. same thing with angel food cake.

i also don't agree with taking it out of the pan right away. i would say let it cool for at least ten minutes before releasing (running a knife around the pan) and turning out. however, you don't necessarily want the cake steaming itself in the pan either.

[jumanggy]

Haha, that list is funny. Since the token Frenchman in the list didn't give any instruction, I might as well add Bugat's (from The Art of the Cake):

cake pan: grease and flour

cake ring: grease and flour, square of greased parchment on the sheet pan

let it rest for 5 minutes then unmold.

I've not had a problem with rise, even with greased pans. The genoise has always emerged pleasantly drum-shaped and stable every time, and never domed.