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Cake kits - good idea or bad?


chefette

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I just came across something fascinating – almost like an accident waiting to happen. I can’t say it’s a bad idea – but I just wonder how this really works out for people.

Anyone familiar with this site?

http://www.gailwatsoncake.com/cake.html

First of all you have to bake a cake on your own or buy one and figure out how to put it all together. She sells you the flowers, fondant (at a tidy profit), sugarpaste etc AND a PHOTO!!!! Wow plus instructions of course. I am just imagining all the frustrated angry brides or their close friends struggling to roll out fondant and cover their cakes, make swags, pipe swishes according to specs etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

UNBELIEVABLE.

And its not like this is a bargain either.

I suppose Gail deserves credit for coming up with a creative way to do what she wants and make money at it without having to take any heat from unhappy brides, cause the joke is kinda on the buyer in this case. I just cannot imagine that there are really too many happy customers at the end of the day.

So, do you guys out there think this is sheer genius or some dastardly gimmick – who would do this?

Any thoughts?

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you know considering the number of people ive seen post on eg in this particular forum, asking for help with decorating a cake for a wedding or other specific special occasions... quite frankly i dont really see anything wrong with it..having looked over the prices that are being charged for the cake kits..while expensive are also a bit cheaper than most cakes you would purchase already made for said special occasion...if you are already a professional and dont need the kits...great..but there are people out there who would love to be able to save some money and do it themselves and there is nothing wrong with that..im not about to critisize soembody elses need to save some money nor will i stifle the creativity of another...every now and then i notice that there are those in the eg forums..professionals who tend to forget that there are those here who are not professionals but who also have the need to express themsleves in the kitchen..it is their way of being creative...ok cake kits are prefab...nothing wrong with that at all....i think there is need to take this into consideration and be a little less condecending of others...they too want to learn every bit as much as the professional which is why we see so many voices here on eg

a recipe is merely a suggestion

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She does say it's for the savvy baker or for your professional baker, but still as a "savvy baker" I'd just copy her picture and make it mself :biggrin:

I sure can't see someone without significant experience using even a kit. I'd bet it's just a small part of her business, though, sort of like selling her flowers or unique cake separators. But that wild rose cake is $600 and I'm too lazy to go and see how much 3-4 dozen roses would cost at one of the sugar flower places but I can already see lots 'o profit there.

More power to her! Caveat emptor.

Josette

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Thoughts running through my head......

1. I can buy a fully-decorated wedding cake for the price of the kit! I suppose her name carries a premium.

2. I'm wondering what kind of bride would be happy to say that they 'made' their own cake, when:

a. they didn't contribute design-wise,

b. they didn't even make the flowers themselves.

3. For above said brides who are happy enough to brag that they made this air-fix cake themselves, I don't think I'll be wrong to place their decorating skills at the lower end...which begs the question of, "How on earth are they going to cover the cake with rolled fondant or buttercream?", which is no easy feat for a multi-tiered cake. There are other things to think of like structures, transporting, keeping, and etc. They already have a zillion other wedding things to stress about. This might just push them over the edge.

However, this kit would work if:

1. People are happy to equate baking a cake to decorating a cake. I baked the cake, therefore I 'made' this cake.

2. The kits are bought waaaaaaaay in advance, and there is a lot of time for practice. Some where along the line, I'm thinking/hoping that the bride will want some real personal input, in which case, the kit has become an expensive practice tool. Duh.

And, so, yes, I do think it's sheer business genius to come up with a wedding cake kit which makes assembling a cake sound as easy as playing with a toy. It will sell....I just don't want to think about how many basket case brides will turn up on the wedding day.

edit: I missed the part where they said it's for the savvy baker, in which case, I agree with Josette that those with experience are not likely to use the kit, they might as well copy the cake and make it themselves.

Edited by Tepee (log)

TPcal!

Food Pix (plus others)

Please take pictures of all the food you get to try (and if you can, the food at the next tables)............................Dejah

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Yeah, what chefette said......

UNBELIEVABLE!!

And everything TePee and jskilling said too!

This part cracks me up.....

The cake kits featured here have all been published in various bridal magazines and are designed for the savvy baker to complete either on their own, or to give to your professional baker.

If someone paid THAT MUCH for the kit, then handed it to me, "the professional baker", I'd be kind of insulted....to say the least. Ahem! I'm a professional baker! I don't NEED the freakin' KIT!!! :wacko:

I gotta say though if she makes money selling kits, then she's smarter than I am. I know people will buy them.....the question is.....how MANY people will buy them? Enough to make it a goldmine? Only time will tell I guess.

I also know there will be some professional bakers out there that will be there to "pick up the pieces" when the bride, or the bride's friend, or the bride's mother, decides they're not such a savvy baker after all....... :blink:

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Thoughts running through my head......

1. I can buy a fully-decorated wedding cake for the price of the kit! I suppose her name carries a premium.

2. I'm wondering what kind of bride would be happy to say that they 'made' their own cake, when:

a. they didn't contribute design-wise,

b. they didn't even make the flowers themselves.

3. For above said brides who are happy enough to brag that they made this air-fix cake themselves, I don't think I'll be wrong to place their decorating skills at the lower end...which begs the question of, "How on earth are they going to cover the cake with rolled fondant or buttercream?", which is no easy feat for a multi-tiered cake. There are other things to think of like structures, transporting, keeping, and etc. They already have a zillion other wedding things to stress about. This might just push them over the edge.

However, this kit would work if:

1. People are happy to equate baking a cake to decorating a cake. I baked the cake, therefore I 'made' this cake.

2. The kits are bought waaaaaaaay in advance, and there is a lot of time for practice. Some where along the line, I'm thinking/hoping that the bride will want some real personal input, in which case, the kit has become an expensive practice tool. Duh.

And, so, yes, I do think it's sheer business genius to come up with a wedding cake kit which makes assembling a cake sound as easy as playing with a toy. It will sell....I just don't want to think about how many basket case brides will turn up on the wedding day.

edit: I missed the part where they said it's for the savvy baker, in which case, I agree with Josette that those with experience are not likely to use the kit, they might as well copy the cake and make it themselves.

1. I'm guessing a bride who is throwing a smaller wedding and therefore has less to worry about, or a friend or relative of the bride, not the bride herself. I know you can't get a cake like for $350 where I live, that's for sure! Or it may just be someone who is curious about making a tiered cake or playing with fondant or whatever an they just want to play around an practice with something that's more geared towards a novice. Everyone has to learn somewhere and some people don't have the luxury of having classes to take where they live.

2. I know a LOT of professional bakers who simply copy designs out of magazines. Why don't you ask them how they feel about saying they've "made" a cake. And what if they don't actually make the fondant themselves (I don't know any who do)? Or if they use a mix? Or if they have an assistant making flowers? Do you still credit them with "making" the cake?

3. With clear instructions, covering a cake with fondant is not difficult, especially for people who are familiar with working with dough or spent a lot of time playing with Play-dough as a kid. I managed to do it perfectly on my first try. I think it's the actual construction of the thing that seems most daunting. I also imagine most people aren't going to attempt to make one of these things unless they're relatively confident in their baking abilities.

Sherri A. Jackson
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First of all, Sherribabee, in my edit note, I said that I did not realize that the kit was targeted at 'savvy' bakers. As such, my main concern was the ability of someone who's never handled a project such as that to take it on with the added stress factors of an impending wedding.

1.  I'm guessing a bride who is throwing a smaller wedding and therefore has less to worry about, or a friend or relative of the bride, not the bride herself.  I know you can't get a cake like for $350 where I live, that's for sure!  Or it may just be someone who is curious about making a tiered cake or playing with fondant or whatever an they just want to play around an practice with something that's more geared towards a novice.  Everyone has to learn somewhere and some people don't have the luxury of having classes to take where they live.

If you had read my post carefully, I did not make a general statement covering everyone being able to get a cheaper cake than $350. It is indeed true that in Malaysia, you can not only get 1 cake for that price, you can get 2! Sad - but true.

We don't have cake-decorating classes here (I am fully self-taught), so, I can appreciate that you think that this kit is a 'somewhere' for these cakers to start. I just thought it wasn't the best of situation unless one has some experience.

2. I know a LOT of professional bakers who simply copy designs out of magazines.  Why don't you ask them how they feel about saying they've "made" a cake.  And what if they don't actually make the fondant themselves (I don't know any who do)?  Or if they use a mix?  Or if they have an assistant making flowers?  Do you still credit them with "making" the cake?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't take credit for a design (or flowers) which is not mine. When I first started decorating cakes 2 years ago, I did 'copy' some Colette Peters and Debbie Brown cakes. However, I always gave credit to them.

BTW, I make my own fondant and gumpaste and cakes from scratch. This is not to censure those who do not (in case, you read that into what I said...you seem to be very hostile towards every word I wrote). The reason is, we do not have the convenience of ready-mades in our neck of the woods.

3. With clear instructions, covering a cake with fondant is not difficult, especially for people who are familiar with working with dough or spent a lot of time playing with Play-dough as a kid.  I managed to do it perfectly on my first try.  I think it's the actual construction of the thing that seems most daunting.  I also imagine most people aren't going to attempt  to make one of these things unless they're relatively confident in their baking abilities.

I see we agree on one point...at least.

Edited by Tepee (log)

TPcal!

Food Pix (plus others)

Please take pictures of all the food you get to try (and if you can, the food at the next tables)............................Dejah

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How can I disagree with what's been written before me...........I really can't. (I've seen her advertisements)

BUT I will say: theres ALOT of bakeries in my area mass producing wedding cakes that can't do sophisicated cakes like Watsons. I know decorators that can't reproduce something acurately at all. There's alot of cake decorators and bakeries out there that can't and don't do much more then a grocery store type of cake. TONS of bakeries out there!!!

You all know what I mean!!

There's also a lot of chefs put on the spot to do a wedding cake. My current chef had to do a wedding cake for a party before I began working for him. Something like that kit would have been great for him to use.....and he's not the only chef I know who's been forced into making cakes that shouldn't have been.

BUT the catch really is in the price. I think it's sort of funny.........why not, Watson has found a way to make a couple bucks........hats off.

If you have the money to buy one of those kit's you have enough to go to a decent cake decorator. As you all recall we get several people a year inquiring here on how to do their own wedding cakes.........and they want to do it for various reasons..........let them and help them........they won't want to do it often.

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I'm not so sure I agree Tepee--it's certainly not easy to cover a large tier with rolled fondant, let alone build a multi-tiered cake. And I think that's part of the larger point chefette was trying to make--the way this is worded, with Gail teasing that "Detailed instructions, and all the tools you need, are included to guide you through the simple process of completing the perfect cake" just might mislead some folks. It's not simple.

I don't think there's any problem recognizing on the one hand, hey, great idea but wondering on the other, how this actually turns out for those kit-buyers and what percentage of people who take on a kit would do it again? (I did our two wedding cakes and I wouldn't, if I could do it over again.) That aside, my concern, from years of teaching and demonstrating, is that I think there is a tendency to rush in and over-evaluate one's own skills, and I think the use of the terms "savvy baker" plays in to that. It may be once someone places an order, that Gail gets on the phone and confirms they can handle it or gets some feel of their experience level. (I hope so.)

Sherri, you're new to the biz, right, just got out of cooking school and now you're decorating cakes as a pro? "With clear instructions, covering a cake with fondant is not difficult, especially for people who are familiar with working with dough or spent a lot of time playing with Play-dough as a kid. I managed to do it perfectly on my first try." I think you're the exception.

Covering a 15" tier with rolled fondant--play dough practice aside--is difficult, even with practice, and even if your standards are somewhat flexible. I know because I've taught amateurs and pros how to roll out everything from pie dough to rolled fondant and it isn't easy to do even pie dough well--but at least with a pie or tart dough you can patch a tear here or there, chill the dough if you take too long, crumble it all up and start again, etc. I "judged" a graduating FCI pastry class one year--and one student had a rolled fondant covered wedding cake as their final assignment. It had nice gum paste flowers, nice coloring, but the rolled fondant was sloppy--and this from a student whose other work was very good and who had practiced a lot AND had months of professional instruction! With fondant, as you know, you can't just patch or recover--you have to be confident, perfect, there's no patching, and once you begin to drape it over a cake tier and it sticks a bit to the buttercream or to your rolling pin you're stuck--there's no lifting it off and beginning again if you realize hey, I didn't roll this out wide enough or thin enough. It depends on how humid it is, it can be done, of course, the first time, but for most people it will not be done even adequately, let alone well--in takes significant practice to do it well, so it's smooth and not nicked. (There should also be some guidance about how to recover from a mistake--as we all have had to do--how to re-arrange your decor to hide your mistakes. But then if you have to be told that you probably shouldn't be trying this in the first place.)

As long as this is stressed in the instructions--and folks are prepared for the expense of practicing--I'm fine with it in concept. But I think you risk conveying false information (and like Gail, setting up false expectation) to eager amateurs and home bakers, especially those on a budget, that because they rolled out Play dough they can handle the demands of wedding cake fondant. Ain't so, at least in my experience. And that's not condescension, that's the value of having pros here--and not just pros but a few teaching pros--we're a corrective, a reality check.

This rings very true for me:

"I think it's the actual construction of the thing that seems most daunting. I also imagine most people aren't going to attempt to make one of these things unless they're relatively confident in their baking abilities"

and I also hope there's plenty of information provided not only about building the cake but then transporting the cake once you assembled it using the kit. I think there's a tendency to get so excited about the flowers, about making the decor, that this aspect is glossed over, often with disastrous results.

This isn't professionals denying that amateurs and home bakers have the need to express themsleves in the kitchen or to find a way of being creative...it's real talk from real experience helping to shape expectations and standards. Do with it what you will. If anyone chooses to go forward after having some informed consent about what's involved, more power to them. Just don't go blindly.

Anne, I kept thinking this as well:

"I also know there will be some professional bakers out there that will be there to "pick up the pieces" when the bride, or the bride's friend, or the bride's mother, decides they're not such a savvy baker after all"

I hope they have the number of a local cake artist or understanding pastry chef on speed-dial.

(Just an fyi, if anyone is concerned about the "tone" of these forums, pm a host privately. That's the place to share your observations, not on thread.)

Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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Sherri, you're new to the biz, right, just got out of cooking school and now you're decorating cakes as a pro? "With clear instructions, covering a cake with fondant is not difficult, especially for people who are familiar with working with dough or spent a lot of time playing with Play-dough as a kid. I managed to do it perfectly on my first try." I think you're the exception.

New to the biz, yes...very. Pro? Not quite yet. :rolleyes: Maybe, to some extent, I am an exception, but when I first tried my hand at fondant (before I had any sort of training) I remember thinking to myself, "so what's the big deal?" And even later in my pasty class when we first worked with fondant, even the folks with questionable kitchen skills all manged to cover their cakes without cracks or wrinkles...all on the first try, if I remember correctly. Maybe I've just been unusually lucky with my experiences, but I've never really thought of working with fondant as difficult. Getting perfectly smooth buttercream is a whole 'nother barrel of monkeys though. I guess everyone has different skills and you can't really figure out what they are until you try your hand at them.

I would be interested in learning how many of these cake kits have sold and what the success/satisfaction rate has been with them.

Sherri A. Jackson
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Fondant. Dear God. Fondant. I've hit this learning curve hard and fast and can tell you that I hate the fricking stuff beyond belief every time I roll it out and try to get it on a layer larger than 8". Right now I'm sweating trying to figure out how I'd get this in one try on a 15" layer. My family knows to steer clear when I start to pick it up.

My first try was perfect as well. It's just been my 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th that have given me fits! Granted, I make my own and probably don't quite have the blend down yet, but I will persist... or buy Pettinice :rolleyes:

What I just thought about after reading this is I'm not sure I'd want to see this kit with my name on it to get a designer cake out to the masses. I don't want to diminish the value of my name or my product by inferior results being passed off with the use of this kit. Starting from a Duncan Hines cake mix for the layers to difficulty rolling the fonant out well on each of the tiers. But no matter how it looks the bride can still say this is a GW cake and that's what would in the end steer me clear as a business person. Yes, you might get some extra $$ but could hurt your future high end sales.

What I do like about her approach is that it would solve the chef who doesn't do this often problem if marketed correctly. It puts all the design elements into one place and tells someone who knows his/her way around a kitchen how to get a product put together. They don't have the time to research designs, mark cake websites, etc. But the price point is most likely the killer for this type of targeted marketing.

The same "kit" approach struck the same nerve in the mural and art forum I pretend to be part of (not having picked up a paintbrush in eons!) Everyone feels that the artist's touch is what sets design apart. The kit is fine for getting you started but it's no solution for skill level.

Still, more power to her. If she can move her business ahead with this and it works, then go for it.

Josette

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Steve beat me to it, but I'll reinforce. I don't have a problem with the idea of cake kits in general, but the couple that I clicked on are non-trivial projects. I think the verbiage on the site sets up an expectation that anyone can make these cakes, and I think a number of folks who purchase the kits may well be frustrated and disappointed.

There's a difference between a savvy baker and a savvy decorator. I started baking at my grandmother's elbow when I was a kid, and through fits and starts got to be a pretty savvy home baker over the succeeding 25 years or so before I stumbled into decorating. But I guaran-freaking-tee you there's no way I'd have been able to cover a 16" cake with fondant on my first try, especially with the pressure of a wedding looming. I rather imagine at least one component of the cake would have wound up as an angry, oily smear on the kitchen wall before I was done. And that's not even taking into account the fussiness of dealing with a 16" cake layer in the first place.

In theory I think the kits might be a good thing, and good for Gail Watson if she's discovered a viable line of business. But there's a real art to setting customer expectations, especially in situations where emotions tend to run high (like weddings). I would hope the written instructions are rock-solid and that there's some amount of verbal consultation with the customer before the purchase, just so the customer knows what he/she is getting into.

B. Keith Ryder

BCakes by BKeith

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2. I'm wondering what kind of bride would be happy to say that they 'made' their own cake, when:

a. they didn't contribute design-wise,

b. they didn't even make the flowers themselves.

Sherribee, I do admit that my original statement sounded a bit condescending on re-reading. English is not my first language...I do have problems with sentence structure, phrasing etc (on top of cake structures :rolleyes: ). Would it sound better if I substituted the phrase in red with if the bride?

I'm not so sure I agree Tepee--it's certainly not easy to cover a large tier with rolled fondant, let alone build a multi-tiered cake. And I think that's part of the larger point chefette was trying to make--the way this is worded, with Gail teasing that "Detailed instructions, and all the tools you need, are included to guide you through the simple process of completing the perfect cake" just might mislead some folks. It's not simple.

Steve, I'm not that sure I understand what you don't agree with me about?? In my first post, I was expressing my concern that some of these people may not know what they're getting into. I said...

"How on earth are they going to cover the cake with rolled fondant or buttercream?", which is no easy feat for a multi-tiered cake. There are other things to think of like structures, transporting, keeping, and etc. They already have a zillion other wedding things to stress about. This might just push them over the edge.

What I agreed to was with Sherri's quote, in the context of my ownvery limited experience.

3. With clear instructions, covering a cake with fondant is not difficult, especially for people who are familiar with working with dough or spent a lot of time playing with Play-dough as a kid. I managed to do it perfectly on my first try. I think it's the actual construction of the thing that seems most daunting. I also imagine most people aren't going to attempt to make one of these things unless they're relatively confident in their baking abilities.

TPcal!

Food Pix (plus others)

Please take pictures of all the food you get to try (and if you can, the food at the next tables)............................Dejah

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Well said and then it'll cost them twice as much! I'm a chef and have fancied having ago ever since I pulled a sugar rose(Or was that a cauliflower) :hmmm: I've made a few things with flower paste and cutters as well.

Still somethings are best left to the proffesionals one day I might get a bag of icing sugar and try but I certainly wouldn't want to do one for a freind(Not sure you would be afterwards) I know my limits!

Perfection cant be reached, but it can be strived for!
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And even later in my pasty class when we first worked with fondant, even the folks with questionable kitchen skills all manged to cover their cakes without cracks or wrinkles...all on the first try, if I remember correctly. 

I was Sherri's partner in that pastry class at FCI, and I must agree that handling the fondant was easy peasy. Perhaps the recipe we used was superior to many, but it was seriously a dream to work with. We made it fresh and used it immediately, which may also have been a large factor in how easy it was to work with. Everyone's fondant was flawless that day, and I do believe that it was the first time using fondant for all but a few of us. It was my first time.

I am not trying to disagree with the pros who say it can be difficult to work with. But my limited experience has led me to believe that fondant is not that difficult to use. Maybe my next attempt will be a nightmare?!

I don't have much of an opinion about these kits. I do think some people will order them and then be overwhelmed. But if Watson can get people to buy them, then more power to her.

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I'm not sure I can add anything new to this. I can't imagine adding to the stress of my own wedding by attempting to make my own cake, particularly if it were something I'd never tried before (tiered cake, that smooth sheath of buttercream, then the fondant, not to mention assembly and transportation).

But I agree with what Josette said about not being certain that I'd want my name as a business person on what are likely to be some less than perfect cakes. She's worked hard to make a name for herself with her cakes, and having substandard end product out there with her name on it - how will that ultimately affect her business? I'm all for her if she can make money off of it, and if she's not worried about the impact on her business, bully for her.

I suppose it all serves to get her name out there, and if I'm a bride in Oklahoma who wants one of her cakes, and none of my local bakers has anything like that, her kit might just be the thing to give me the cake of my dreams. Provided it all comes together.

As for working with fondant. Ugh. We made our own in school, and I really did not like working with it. Whether I'd like working with pre-made stuff any better, I don't know. My intention as a baker is to stick with buttercream and use the fondant as a decorating garnish. But then again, I'm not doing wedding cakes.

"I just hate health food"--Julia Child

Jennifer Garner

buttercream pastries

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I think it will appeal to the whole foods/trader joes crowd who feel vaguely guilty from all the trendy magazine food sections screaming that they are a bad person if they touch the evil, mass-produced hoi polloi food yet can't be bothered learning how to actually cook.

PS: I am a guy.

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If I remember correctly, Gail has actually been offering those kits for quite some time now- and she has had several cakes featured, in bridal magazines- which makes me wonder why she needs to offer the kits, except for the fact that she probably got lots of inquiries about purchasing just the flowers, and saw it as another buisness opportunity. I don't know, if it works for her, more power to her. I do wonder really how many of these kits she has sold- especially after hearing the price of the kits. Also considering the fact that people can easily purchase ready made gumpaste flowers, for considerably less, from other sources..

When most brides opt to make their own cake, it's usually because they want to save the money it would cost them to get a cake made by a professional (and because the majority think that it is quite simple to make a wedding cake :biggrin: ). I do believe that there are talented people out there, that simply are "good" at whatever they try to do, and even if they are not professionally trained, or experienced at making a wedding cake, are able to pull off a wedding cake that is suitable for them. "Suitable" is the difference here- some people are happy with varying degrees of work in cakes, and have no clue or somehow are not able to discern the difference between high quality workmanship and one of a lesser degree of workmanship. For some people, unfortunately, a cake is simply a cake, and not a piece of art, as many of us may look at them- and so they are usually very happy with the wedding cake they have made- even if it may not meet our standards.

As someone has said already, I do wonder why she would want her name associated with a cake that may not truly reflect the beauty of her cake creations. But, we all do things differently, and for different reasons, whether we agree or not. I have people contacting me for my gumpaste flowers, figurines, and even the blown sugar bubbles, but I don't sell any of them separately from my cakes- but that's just me.

I wonder if she has a disclaimer with the kit stating that she can not be held responsible if the cake does not resemble the one in the picture/kit? :blink:

I did make my own wedding cake 11 years ago, and although I was pleased with it, now that I know many more talented cake artists/chefs, if I had to do it all over again, I probably would choose to enjoy the week before my wedding, and call on one of them to make my cake for me :biggrin: (But, then on the other hand, it was a "challenge" of sorts for me, to make my own wedding cake, along with all the other things I made for my wedding- but then I did already have experience at making wedding cakes, gumpaste flowers, etc.)

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