Kosher Substitute for Fish Sauce

[Swisskaese]

I would like to make an Indonesian dish and I need a substitute for Fish sauce. Any suggestions?

[Jason Perlow]

I would like to make an Indonesian dish and I need a substitute for Fish sauce. Any suggestions?

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According to this page, light soy combined with salted yellow beans and fermented tofu can be substituted for Fish Sauce.

http://www.thaigrocer.com/VegAdapt.html

http://www.geocities.com/emaildaneng/veggiefishsauce.html

[annarborfoodie]

I am allergic to fish sauce, so I need a substitute. I have found vegetarian "oyster" sauce at asian groceries that works pretty well (of course, I don't have much to compare it to...)

[origamicrane]

I would like to make an Indonesian dish and I need a substitute for Fish sauce. Any suggestions?

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hi errmmm... forgive my ignorance

i know very little about kosher food certification

but fish sauce is made out of anchovies.

anchovies are kosher right?

[Gifted Gourmet]

Anchovies are kosher (provided that the package has kosher certification). Any fish that has fins and scales is kosher, and anchovies fit into that category.

[bloviatrix]

One of my friends made a mixture of worcestershire, soy and vinegar. I have no idea how accurate the flavor is, but it definitely enhanced the soup she make.

[Mr Wozencroft]

I'd just add some light soya sauce to taste.

[cakewalk]

Anchovies are kosher, but fish is not supposed to be eaten together with meat, so it can pose a problem depending on what you're making.

The vegetarian "oyster" sauce sounds interesting.

[Swisskaese]

The fish sauce here does not have a heksher, so it is a problem.

Some fish sauces also say they cannot guarantee that it doesn't have shellfish in it.

[mizducky]

Anchovies are kosher, but fish is not supposed to be eaten together with meat, so it can pose a problem depending on what you're making.

The vegetarian "oyster" sauce sounds interesting.

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Actually, this depends on the particular version of kashrut being observed. Some traditions hold that fish is "pareve" and thus can be eaten with either meat or dairy; others do hold that fish should not be eaten with meat.

Edited to add: oy. The more I go Googling on this particular point, the more contradictory opinions I keep turning up.

This site, for instance, says in one place that fish is pareve and can be consumed with either meat or milk, and in another place *on the same page* says: "Jewish law forbids the eating or cooking of meat and fish together, but they may be eaten one immediately following the other by rinsing ones mouth between eating them and washing the vessels and utensils."

Okay, so now I'm confused.

Edited May 9, 2005 by mizducky (log)

[origamicrane]

"Jewish law forbids the eating or cooking of meat and fish together, but they may be eaten one immediately following the other by rinsing ones mouth between eating them and washing the vessels and utensils."

Okay, so now I'm confused. 

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hmm.... so its the fish sauce is probably ok and the problem is the meat and the fish sauce together hmmm...

substitute the meat instead

[cakewalk]

So you think kashrut shouldn't be confusing?

The fish/meat laws have nothing to do with the pareve issue. Fish can be eaten before, after, probably even during a meat meal, but it may not be eaten from the same plate. And it's not permissable for them to be cooked together.

These rules came about much later than many other kashrut rules, and they are one of the few rules that actually are connected to the health issue. The fear was if fish was cooked together with meat, or eaten on the same plate, people would assume they were eating a meat meal and not pay too much attention to the small bones in the fish. If you're eating fish alone, you're apt to be more aware of the fact that you might choke to death on a bone. Hence the separation between the two. There was also the fear of getting salt from the fish on one's fingers (such dining etiquette!) and then inadvertently rubbing one's eyes with salted hands (which, I guess, could be pretty painful.)

So that's the deal. Aren't you glad you asked?

[touaregsand]

So you think kashrut shouldn't be confusing?

The fish/meat laws have nothing to do with the pareve issue. Fish can be eaten before, after, probably even during a meat meal, but it may not be eaten from the same plate. And it's not permissable for them to be cooked together.

These rules came about much later than many other kashrut rules, and they are one of the few rules that actually are connected to the health issue. The fear was if fish was cooked together with meat, or eaten on the same plate, people would assume they were eating a meat meal and not pay too much attention to the small bones in the fish. If you're eating fish alone, you're apt to be more aware of the fact that you might choke to death on a bone. Hence the separation between the two. There was also the fear of getting salt from the fish on one's fingers (such dining etiquette!) and then inadvertently rubbing one's eyes with salted hands (which, I guess, could be pretty painful.)

So that's the deal.  Aren't you glad you asked?

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Interesting concept. Fish and meat really don't taste good together to begin with. And what are the chances of confusing meat with fish even if it's cooked together in the same dish? Even so, if I feel a thorny thing in my mouth I'm spitting it out.

I see a loophole. Fishsauce doesn't have any bones in it.

[mizducky]

So you think kashrut shouldn't be confusing?

Good point. Silly me--what was I thinking?

So that's the deal.  Aren't you glad you asked?

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Hey, ya learn something every day.

It belatedly occurs to me that part of my confusion probably stems from the fact that my own and only experience in actually practicing Kashrut was as a young adult in the context of a Havurah, many of whose members were various flavors of vegetarian. Most community meals wound up being milchig/pareve, so while I got a real good grasp of the rules concerning those, I didn't get nearly as much education on the fleischig end of things. Of course, *now* I'm going "duh! and here all this time I was thinking maybe people just served the gefilte fish by itself before the rest of the meal just to be fancy?!?" So, yeah, I'm definitely glad I asked--I don't *like* to be ignorant!

[bloviatrix]

BTW, there are worcestershire sauces out there that can be used with meat. I think Heinz makes one (they sell it at the kosher market I frequent).

[SuzySushi]

I'd just substitute light soy sauce, or soy sauce diluted with a little water + salt to taste.

Worcestershire sauce does NOT resemble the taste of fish sauce and would throw the flavor of the dish, IMO.

Can you find kosher/parve anchovy paste? If so, add a little dab of that along with the soy sauce.

[bloviatrix]

There is kosher anchovy paste on the market, but you can't use it in meat/poultry dishes. (Cakewalk's post - #12 explains it all).

[Clerkenwellian]

One of my friends made a  mixture of worcestershire, soy and vinegar.  I have no idea how accurate the flavor is, but it definitely enhanced the soup she make.

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Proper worcestershire sauce has anchovies in - I didn't realise this until I ordered a bloody mary at a kosher function.

[Jason Perlow]

Asian/Hong Kong style worcestershire sauce doesn't, though. I have one from a company called Kong Yen that is just "Rice Vinegar, Sugar, Salt, Seaweed, Vegetable, Fruits, Spices, and Caramel."

http://www.kongyen.com.tw/en/product/product02_2130.html

[Pam R]

Michelle,

I don't know if you mentioned whether or not the dish you wished to make was meat . I haven't tried it, but I know somebody who makes her own fish sauce by tossing some anchovies, soy and water in a blender.

I had so much to say when I read your first post, but you all are too quick and it's all been said

I will add though, that we catered a bar mitzvah dinner that was buffet and had both fish and meat - we had to set it up in stations and allow enough dishes so that guests could have seperate dishes for each. I understand that it is simply a tradition not to eat them together, not an actual rule.

[Swisskaese]

The recipe has turkey in it.

I think I will go with a light soy.

I use the Heinz Worcestershire sauce. It tastes just like the regular one.

We are not allowed to mix meat and fish on our plates at the cafeteria at work. If someone wants both meat and fish they have to put it on two separate plates.

I am sure there are plenty of arguments of whether it is tradition or the rule.

Thanks for all of the suggestions.