Sietsema's 100 Best Asian Restaurants

[Bux]

Wilfrid, there's always a song, isn't there?

Now that sounds like a line from an old movie. I'm not sure if it's a musical or something Bogart would've or should've said.

My point being that some of the best peasant food has been cooked by very talented and accomplished chefs, which I suppose for the purposes of this discussion are not real people.

[Wilfrid]

Bobby Flay - real person?  Discuss.

Now I'm reminded of something I was reading on the subway this morning - a chapter in Rebecca Spang's marvellous book 'The Invention of the Restaurant'.  It seems that in the immediate aftermath of the French revolution, there was indeed a reaction against what rich people ate and how they ate.  She provides a close analysis of some cartoons which show King Louis just before his arrest - in each case he is prictured "at table", and his gluttony and indigence are clearly making a political point.

However, following the toppling of Robespierre and the Jacobins, there was a dramatic return to fine dining and its fripperies.  Which is a long-winded way of agreeing with you, Bux.  The revolutionaries got rid of their king and aristocrats on a long-term basis, but soon missed their chapon a la financiere.  Personally, I am in favor of banishing The Queen, but seizing and redistributing her crockery.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Funny that the "cheap is best" doesn't fly with me because it appears to be associated with a left-wing leaning. And if others were to place me somewhere it would be towards the very left wing. I think it may be the way the view is expounded that puts me off."

It's because money has nothing to do with how delicious something is. Yes good ingredients will cost more but, what cost has to do with taste is something I can never quite figure out. The fact that a Pastrami sandwich at Katz's might be more enjoyable, i.e. better than a Veal Chop at a fancy Northen Italian place has nothing to do with the fact that it costs $10 and the veal chop costs $30. The reasons that the veal chop costs $20 more are well known to all. And to have someone who can weigh the two against each other fairly rank the pastrami over the chop, that is a hell of an endorsement. But no matter how good the sandwich is, it will never offer the same qualities the veal chop offers. But the "cheap is best" crowd are loathe to acknowledge that the $20 offers anything of value. Yet they have unlimited accolades for a $16 veal chop.

[Priscilla]

Yes.  It's like what Bill Broonzy said, the Chicago blues guy, when somebody condescendingly asked him about so-called "folk" music, (and I paraphrase, on account of I can't remember exactly), "I guess all songs are folk songs, I never heard no horse sing 'em."

I think it's the same with cuisine, without too belabored an extrapolation.  The proof's always in the pud, whether it's a song or a dish on a plate.  (Redundant?)

The cheap eats guys, (and they always seem to be guys although I would welcome hearing of exceptions), do grate.  The universal and eternal gratage of the holier-than-thou.

Priscilla

[yvonne johnson]

Bux: Your saying "You need not be a royalist or take sides in religious wars to lament the destruction of art and miss the heads on the figures in front of most gothic cathedrals in France" really hit a nail on the head.  What irks me is the mistaken and arrogant view that if a person likes fine dining then they must also have other predictable characteristics. Another view seems to be that if one likes cheap, good ethnic eats then one must necessarily like jazz.  By what logic, tell me, are specific cuisines and particular musical styles correlated?  Liking specific foods, in the main, does not amount to a world view, in my book, so when someone presents a packaged identity for me to wear based on an approach to food, I will be put off.  One of the major reasons I like eGullet is being left alone to reach my own conclusions.

We've gone a long way from Sietsema's list but I think it's an interesting discussion.

Steve P: re your "unlimited accolades" for the cheap veal chop. My husband and I were talking along these lines the other day. The hype around some cheap places is disproportionate to the real quality. That's one disadvanatage to a cheap/best list. If readers are led to believe these are the best of their kind, then they will miss out, in some cases, on something a lot better, but a little pricier.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Yvonne - I lose faith in mankind when I visit places that someone like Sietsema or Leff rave about only to find they are serving authentic junk. Two places that Sietsema raved about in particular come to mind, both in the Arabic serction of 5th Avenue in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. Sietsema reported on a "best chicken schwarma sandwich" as well as what he thought was a great Egyptian fish shop/restaurant. Well the shwarma turned out to be really bad, so much so that I couldn't fathom a good argument for it on any account. And the fish shop was plain yet fine enough (although it was Halal and they wouldn't let me bring wine in), but not worth the schlep to Bay Ridge from the Upper East Side. I mean striped bass for $8 comes with limitations to how good it is.

I have to say that the older I get, the less enamored I am with the type of ethnic cuisine that the cheap eats crowd goes gaga over. So much of it is of poor quality and is nothing but a bunch of greasy slop. Not that a plate of greasy slop doesn't have a place in my heart. But let's be realistic about where it lies on the culinary spectrum.

[Wilfrid]

Funny.  Cheap food and jazz.  And beards and sweaters?  This is an interesting discussion and perhaps there should be a new thread.  All kinds of assumptions get made.  I have often spoken up here for Le Cirque, and I am sure some people get the idea that I have a soft spot for the clientele.  No, I like the tripe in armagnac.  

I have seen the "deliciousness" thing, and I regard it as only partially valid.  What I often want, apart from delicious food, is a peaceful atmosphere, somewhere comfortable to sit, attentive service and a general reassuring ambience.   That's not exclusive to the upper end of the scale, but I think it's easier to find there.

[Pan]

I sometimes feel I'm out of my socio-economic stratum here. OK, yes, some of you have told me you save money on other things so that you can spend more on eating out. But never mind that for now. The fact is that many people eat cheaply out of necessity. A $10 or $15 or $20 meal at Congee Village may not be as good as a $200 meal at Le Bernardin in various ways (though, comparing apples and apples, it may or may not be comparable to a meal at Shun Lee Palace [which serves great and probably superior food], but will probably be significantly better than a meal at Shun Lee West), but a lot of people would consider it a better value - especially if $200 is 1/3 of their monthly rent and their yearly income is, say, $20,000 or less. And there are certain other things about cheap meals: You don't have to be very concerned with your appearance, and things are generally more informal. A lot of people like that environment most of the time. And whereas I see arguments here that chowhound.com is biased toward cheaper restaurants (which I think is a questionable assertion, by the way), I think it would be hard to argue that the New York board here discusses high-end places much more than low-end places. Just as there is room for both $400 dresses and some comfortable, cheap t-shirts, there is room for both Alain Ducasse and Bo Ky, and someone should be letting people know which cheap restaurants are good values. Having said that, I agree that both Sietsema's terms and choices are open to a lot of question, but I also think it's strange that the New York Times just about refuses to consider restaurants in their "under-$25" category for any stars. I think this is money-driven, not quality-driven. To paraphrase Steve, what does price have to do with quality? My answer is that, while he's right that certain ingredients simply cost more, we all know that's not the only thing that's important about a restaurant. Henry's Evergreen costs a lot more than Congee Village, but Congee Village and numerous other inexpensive Chinatown places beat Henry's Evergreen by a country mile in terms of food quality.

[Wilfrid]

Definitely deserves a new thread.

I just want to say that I agree with Pan - I would love to see more discussion on the NY board about inexpensive restaurants.  Maybe contributors think they're not worth posting about?  I am often stuck for ideas on good cheap restaurants in Manhattan for the very simple reason that my poverty-stricken years have so far been spent in other cities.  When I do eat somewhere inexpensive, I often have a horrible experience, and head back to the tablecloths and leather-bound menus in resentment.

Secondly, while it's true that many people eat economically out of necessity.  But that sort of undercuts the question about what people prefer.  When I was eating cheap bowls of pork and rice in London's Soho, I would have far preferred to be eating at Le Gavroche.  I may have kidded myself that the pork and rice was "just as good", but what nonsense!  Perhaps the acid test is this:  if one has enough money to eat at four star restaurants, does one find oneself just as often choosing no star restaurants instead, because the quality there is in its own way satisfactory?

(I could ask the same question about clothes, but that could lead to a digression!   :wow: )

[Steve Plotnicki]

Pan - No you have misquoted me. Price has everything to do with quality. It just doesn't have anything to do with something being delicious. Congee Village is delicious at what it does. But it doesn't offer the type of refinement you get at a place like Le Bernadin which is why is costs so much more. There used to be a branch of Congee Village in my neighborhood and I can tell you that the scallops they used in the congee are not the same quality as the scallops at Le Bernardin. What we have been pointing out is that the cheap eats crowd not only doesn't value that level of refinement, they often speak of it with disdain.

The bottom line for me (and I'm sure this is true for Yvonne and Wilfrid)  is that I am suspect of having someone tell me where I can get good scallops if they can't tell the difference between the two examples raised. Which means for me that Sietsema's list will be hit and miss because for every one like Congee Village and Dosa Hut there will be those like my chicken schwarma story. But for example if we were talking about a list prepared by Fat Guy, while I might not agree with all of his choices, it wouldn't suffer from the types of problem that Sietsema's list suffers from like not identifying poor quality ingredients that have been "slathered" over with black curries.

[SobaAddict70]

Just an observation:

The rankings assigned by Sietsema MAY NOT be rankings in terms of best to worst but rather just a list of the 100 top blah blah blah according to Mr. Sietsema.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Soba Addict - If you knew the places you would know that they are ranked according to preference. Congee Village and Dosa Hut are on every all time foodie hall of fame list and are ethnic food freaks of nature. And Arunee has been a Sietsema favorite for years, to the contention of all those who feel Sripaphai is better which from what I can see is everyone else other than Sietsema. There was even a thread about it (or part of a thread) on Chowhound.

Wilfrid - There are a few reasons that we don't write more about inexpensive places. One, this board is keyed into sophisticated cooking techniques and inexpensive places usually offer simple cooking methods. Second, we are all obsessed with the social context of fine dining and what it means in the history of the development of mankind. Inexpensive cuisine which is mostly ethnic, mainly explores the socio-economics of foreign places. And while I like a good Iskender Kabob, eating one at a place like Sahara in Brooklyn doesn't have much to do what is going on in Turkey. Whereas if we were dining in Istanbul, the environment of dining there might launch a conversation of McLuhanesque proportions  

[wingding]

The restaurant that I was happy to see mentioned,and have patronized for years,is Pho Viet Huong on Mulberry St.I love the duck soup;a roasted duck leg in a delicate broth with egg noodles and mushrooms.Simple and cheap with clear flavors,no glop....and wonderful on a cold windy day.

[Pan]

Pan - No you have misquoted me. Price has everything to do with quality. It just doesn't have anything to do with something being delicious. Congee Village is delicious at what it does. But it doesn't offer the type of refinement you get at a place like Le Bernadin which is why is costs so much more. There used to be a branch of Congee Village in my neighborhood and I can tell you that the scallops they used in the congee are not the same quality as the scallops at Le Bernardin. What we have been pointing out is that the cheap eats crowd not only doesn't value that level of refinement, they often speak of it with disdain.

OK, I understand where you're coming from. I figure I'm not quite part of the "cheap eats crowd," then because I _do_ value high-quality ingredients. I actually was not blown away by Le Bernardin when I went there a few years ago (though my reaction had little if anything to do with the quality of their ingredients), but I thought the scallops I had at the River Cafe were probably the best scallops I had ever had, and perfectly prepared. Even though it was a Restaurant Week meal (and therefore significantly less expensive than their usual menu), the fact that the River Cafe is a high-class establishment helped assure the high quality of their ingredients.

I guess where we differ is that, in judging the quality of a meal (the food quality, not the ambience, service, etc.), I think deliciousness is the most important thing. Quality ingredients are part of the deliciousness, but only if they're prepared deliciously. So I guess I would summarize by saying that it's undoubtedly easier to make great food if money is no object, but high-end places can be mediocre and low-end places can be delicious. It does seem like we agree on that last point.

[Robert Schonfeld]

This discussion brings to mind an old New Yorker cartoon:

A man is saying his prayers before bed. He says: "Lord, I don't ask for much, but what I get should be of good quality."

[Mao]

I think there is a tendency for zealots of the two schools we seem to have created, each with their central tenets--cheap ethnic is best (authenticity > yummyiness) vs. expensive is best (better ingredients=better tasting food)--to over generalize.  There are indeed examples that fit the "ethnic is best" view of the high end, meaning there are expensive restaurants that serve bland and even bad food.  The existence of such establishments, despite the fact that many high end restaurants are superlative, enables this school to comfort in the generalization that indeed all high end food is overpriced artifice, i.e., that these poor restaurants are exemplary, not the exceptions.  On the other hand, better ingredients do not necessarily equate to better food.  Sub choice cuts of cheaper meat can be prepared with deftness to render them delicious in the right (immigrant or not) chef's hands; and it’s too readily the case that the freshest soft-shell crabs are bludgeoned by overcooking at places that are expensive.  Given fresh and overcooked soft shell crabs, and the right cut of perfectly braised meat, I will take the latter.  There is no doubt that superior ingredients cooked skillfully will taste better than the same inferior ingredients cooked with the same skill.  But I would rather eat at a place with slightly inferior ingredients and skilled preparation, than one with superlative ingredients that are then underutilized or mishandled.

[SobaAddict70]

Steve P. -- I've been to quite a few of the places on his list but don't see it based on any sort of preference-based scale.  If it were, then Mr. Sietsema needs to be a little more discriminating in his use (or perhaps "underuse") of appropriate adjectives, adverbs and descriptors...

Republic may have been a scene when it first opened, and IMHO it's still a scene even now, but (also IMHO) doesn't deserve a 95 ranking.  Arguably it could go lower (perhaps slightly), or also have been left off the list.

Grand Sichuan (ranked I think at 16) deserves a much higher placement IMO.  And he didn't even go after the Kung Pao (Bao) Chicken or the poetic sounding dishes!  What's up with that?

I don't know about you (or anyone else) but I'm not going to schlep 1.5+ hours to Staten Island in search of that perfect plate of Sri Lankan cuisine.  1.5+ hours = waiting time for the subway and ferry, not to mention the trip time itself and the time it'll take to get to Victory Blvd., whereever that is.  You'd think that for the #1 spot, that the Honorable Mr. Sietsema would choose some place more accessible....

Where is Big Wong in all of these?  Cheap it is.  "Charming" decor it has.  Well-executed Cantonese BBQ meats it does.  Apparently Mr. Sietsema thinks not...

Ethnic doesn't necessarily mean "simple cooking techniques".  What about Honmura An, Patria, Zarela/Veracruz, and Joe's Shanghai?  Xiao long bao (soup dumplings) aren't exactly "simple"...

[Steve Klc]

Mao--on the Sugiyama thread and this one, I'm not sure we have created two distinct schools--in my mind, we've distinguished one school which requires greater knowledge, experience, expense and awareness--which subsumes the other.

The Sietsema/cheap eats/chowhound track is simply groupthink, a valid, though marginalized, component of a much more nuanced and sophisticated whole.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve Klc - As my friend Sasha Katzman says, it wasn't until he drank 1947 Cheval Blanc (one of the great bottles of the 20th century for those who don't know and in fact maybe the greatest,) that he learned which $10 bottles of wine were the really good ones. This extreme example makes the point very well because it pits a $3500 item against a $10 item and it implies there is a level of enjoyment that one can find in each bottle and necessarily at all increments in between. Unfortunately there is so much writing at the cheap eats level that either doesn't understand this point, or rejects it on pseudo-political grounds that the writers lose credibility with accomplished diners. While I understand that this posture  plays to an audience who wants to feel that the segment they occupy is the only legitimate segment, what I always find amazing about it is that for a demographic that thinks of themselves as PC, they are willing to speak poorly of others as part of achieving that feeling, or by censoring discourse which a certain other chatroom is famous for. That is how you end up with reviews like Sugiyama.

Soba Addict - Well don't you get it? The schelp is part of the mystique. I used to have a small group of people from my industry where once a month we would schlep outside of Manhattan to eat ethnic food somewhere. One time at either Sietsema or Leff's recomendation we got in my car and went bounding out to Fresh Kills in Staten Island to eat at a German restaurant named Killmeyer's. Well it was so far out in S.I. that it was almost on the Outerbridge Crossing. When I pulled into the parking lot, we could have been in Oklahoma. In fact one of our group commented that it felt like we were really far from home. What we found inside was food that was so ordinary with bland, unspicy bolgnaesque knockwurst that it wouldn't even be worth traveling crosstown in Manhattan for the food let alone halfway across the U.S. Clearly this place made the list for the "cool factor" of the location and not for the food.

As for ethnic food and simple cooking technique, I didn't say ethnic, I said inexpensive food. The list of ethnic restaurants you named are all quite expensive. And that is because they use top quality ingredients and agonize over food preparation. Something that I don't think is going on at El Paso Taqueria.

[robert brown]

Steve, what is a conversation of "McLuhanesque proportions"?When I was with him, he did all the talking. Is your comment a subtle, clever play on words that is based on "hot medium" and "cool medium"?

[Wilfrid]

Yeah, I could never get a word in with Heidegger either.  

Incidentally, I agree with Steve P. about the importance of the "schlep" (a word I did not learn in Essex).  I always try to make my "schlep" an elaborate one, with more attractions than the food at the end of the trail.  When I head to an Outer Borough on a food recommendation, I make sure the itinerary takes in some other things of interest.  Then I don't feel so bad when I get my stringy, overcooked meal on a plastic plate and tumbler of cabernet vinegar.

Reminds me: now that spring is here, I have to start planning to roast guinea pig expedition.

[SobaAddict70]

As for ethnic food and simple cooking technique, I didn't say ethnic, I said inexpensive food.

True dat, but I guess what I really meant was that sometimes or a lot of times, "ethnic" is a euphemism for "inexpensive" or "unsophisticated cooking techniques", and I wanted to point out that the two don't necessarily jive.

One time at either Sietsema or Leff's recomendation we got in my car and went bounding out to Fresh Kills in Staten Island to eat at a German restaurant named Killmeyer's.

Unfortunately, moi doesn't have a car, so its still gonna be 3+ hours round trip.  If only the schlep took less time, then I'd see.  For instance, Peter Luger's is not out of the question (somehow I'd say that PL would never be out of the question even if it were in Middle Village or Bayside and not in Williamsburg); neither is Sriphipai (sic) or any of the really good Greek/Egyptian/Albanian/Yugoslavian/Turkish places in Astoria.  But a mediocre German beer pub in the middle of bumf**k Staten Island doesn't cut it for vehicularly deprived people such as moi.  

[Wilfrid]

in the middle of bumfuck Staten Island

Was that a typo in there?  Just checking.

[tommy]

But a mediocre German beer pub in the middle of bumfuck Staten Island doesn't cut it for vehicularly deprived people such as moi.  

HEY!  don't talk about the rock that way!  :wow:

[SobaAddict70]

HEY!  don't talk about the rock that way!

huh?  The rock?

I don't get it...