French cooking

[chefzadi]

Curious. This forum in particular seems to be lacking questions regarding actually cooking French dishes. Why is this? Whereas the Middle East and African forum for example is mostly about cooking. Is it because no one actually cooks French food at home?

[Maison Rustique]

This is interesting. I've been a member of eGullet for at least a year and a half. I only recently (within the past month or so) realized that cooking was discussed in the regional forums. I always thought they were just for discussing restuarants and get-togethers. Most of the cooking discussions seem to take place in (no surprise) the cooking forum.

I'm a little puzzled about all this. If we discuss the various cuisines in the regional forums, what are we supposed to talk about in the cooking forum?

[SuzySushi]

Curious. This forum in particular seems to be lacking questions regarding actually cooking French dishes. Why is this? Whereas the Middle East and African forum for example is mostly about cooking. Is it because no one actually cooks French food at home?

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I haven't been an eGullet member long, but IMO, it's because French (and Italian and Mexican, for that matter) cuisine is much more familiar to eGullet's largely North American membership, whereas we're much less familiar with how to cook Asian, Middle Eastern, and African dishes.

I'm cooking French food at home -- at least this week, in part of my worldwide tour through my cookbook collection.

[chefzadi]

I'm a little puzzled about all this. If we discuss the various cuisines in the regional forums, what are we supposed to talk about in the cooking forum?

To keep some regional focus. For instance a kebab question on the Middle Eastern/Africa Forum will be focused on versions for those regions. Whereas a kebab question on the cooking forum will take the idea of a kebab allover the world. So with egullet we have these two options. It's a way of engaging in dialogue on different levels.

because French (and Italian and Mexican, for that matter) cuisine is much more familiar to eGullet's largely North American membership

I don't agree that French cuisine is really familiar to North Americans. I'm asked questions about it all the time, Outside of the school I teach at of course.

Also in the Middle East/Africa forum for instance there's alot of dialogue between Ms. Wolfert, myself, Zeitoun, Food man, Behemoth who have a quite a bit of knowledge regarding North African and Middle Eastern cuisine. It's like this on a few other forums here as well.

I think that part of is that there are quite a few French language sites that cover cooking, recipe sharing, techniques. But surely non-Francophones must want to know about French cooking, techniques, regional differences, home recipes...

[Busboy]

I think the sheer volume of French cooking literature may be a clue, as well. If I have a questiuon about French cooking, I have, what, four Jacques Pepin cookbooks, including The Complete Technique, Julia's Mastering, both Keller books, the LaRousse Gastronomique, Bourdain, a couple of Provencal cookbooks -- who needs eGullet?

Like many Americans, my cooking is pretty eclectic, but there are few weeks in which the majority of home-cooked meals aren't French-inflected, even the preliminary inspiration is from somewhere else. Tonight's dinner which, in retrospect, was a bit all over the map, had black bean soup with central American crema, duck breasts with cumin and mango, in a sauce with duck fond, Greek muscat, lime and butter, and polenta, but with milk and garlic. Lacking focus, as I said, but all linked by a French-ish approach.

But I do have a question, and I will post it.

[Pam R]

Is it because no one actually cooks French food at home

Perhaps. It may also say something about the popularity of the food these days. I live in a city with a large French community (largest in Canada outside of Quebec) but there aren't that many french restaurants. Yet there are tons of asian and italian places. (as well as many many other ethnics joints)

Do you think it could be because people are moving away from the 'traditional' cooking and are trying these more 'exotic' flavours?

Also, I think French cooking is thought of as rather rich... people are eating more things that they perceive to be healthy?

Just my thoughts...

[origamicrane]

Its because French cusine is seen as difficult or complicated too cook.

I think that questions about recipes and cooking techniques will come from the amateur or home cook in the whole. I think the lack of question is due to the fact that most would not bother cooking a French meal.

In my experience French cooking just seems a lot more effort then most other cusines.

The percieved amount of work/skill required of create a successful dish is high and the probability of screwing it up also seems high.

This impression has also been cultivated by the fact that French cuisine is seen as the pinnacle of cooking.

Also pretty sure that if you randomly selected about 50 recipes from across several different cusines, I bet the average number of ingredient would be highest in the french recipes and probably the longest prep and cooking time.

[SuzySushi]

Its because French cusine is seen as difficult or complicated too cook.

I think that questions about recipes and cooking techniques will come from the amateur or home cook in the whole. I think the lack of question is due to the fact that most would not bother cooking a French meal.

In my experience French cooking just seems a lot more effort then most other cusines.

The percieved amount of work/skill required of create a successful dish is high and the probability of screwing it up also seems high.

This impression has also been cultivated by the fact that French cuisine is seen as the pinnacle of cooking.

Also pretty sure that if you randomly selected about 50 recipes from across several different cusines, I bet the average number of ingredient would be highest in the french recipes and probably the longest prep and cooking time.

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That's not completely true, IMHO, because you're not distinguishing between French haute cuisine and everyday French cooking. A case in point: tonight, I cooked Steak with Sauce Chateau. The reduction sauce (cooked in the same pan the steaks were browned in) consisted of 5 ingredients (minced shallots, white wine, beef stock, a dab of tomato paste, and butter) plus salt & pepper, and took less than 5 minutes to put together. It can't get much simpler than that. The other night I made French crepes for 2 adults and 2 kids -- they took about the same length of time to cook and assemble as a batch of American pancakes and were so much more elegant!

How about omelettes? Salade Nicoise? Boeuf Bourguignon (= beef stew), Boeuf en Daube (= pot roast), Coq au Vin (= chicken casserole). All these dishes take little more skill or cooking time than their American counterparts. I'd list more easy dishes but it's 1:00 am here and my brain is not functioning... but you get the idea.

[origamicrane]

Its because French cusine is seen as difficult or complicated too cook.

I think that questions about recipes and cooking techniques will come from the amateur or home cook in the whole. I think the lack of question is due to the fact that most would not bother cooking a French meal.

In my experience French cooking just seems a lot more effort then most other cusines.

The percieved amount of work/skill required of create a successful dish is high and the probability of screwing it up also seems high.

This impression has also been cultivated by the fact that French cuisine is seen as the pinnacle of cooking.

Also pretty sure that if you randomly selected about 50 recipes from across several different cusines, I bet the average number of ingredient would be highest in the french recipes and probably the longest prep and cooking time.

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That's not completely true, IMHO, because you're not distinguishing between French haute cuisine and everyday French cooking. A case in point: tonight, I cooked Steak with Sauce Chateau. The reduction sauce (cooked in the same pan the steaks were browned in) consisted of 5 ingredients (minced shallots, white wine, beef stock, a dab of tomato paste, and butter) plus salt & pepper, and took less than 5 minutes to put together. It can't get much simpler than that. The other night I made French crepes for 2 adults and 2 kids -- they took about the same length of time to cook and assemble as a batch of American pancakes and were so much more elegant!

How about omelettes? Salade Nicoise? Boeuf Bourguignon (= beef stew), Boeuf en Daube (= pot roast), Coq au Vin (= chicken casserole). All these dishes take little more skill or cooking time than their American counterparts. I'd list more easy dishes but it's 1:00 am here and my brain is not functioning... but you get the idea.

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hmm.... i see the point of seperating home and haute french cooking

but maybe for the simple dishes no one needs to ask questions?

also the simple dishes get assimilated into other cusines and are no longer considered real French.

And the hard stuff no one at home is going to be bothered with?

heck! this time last year i didn't even cook french food but even now

I still consider french cooking to be at least the most time consuming if not the most complicated.

[Busboy]

Its because French cusine is seen as difficult or complicated too cook.

I think that questions about recipes and cooking techniques will come from the amateur or home cook in the whole. I think the lack of question is due to the fact that most would not bother cooking a French meal.

In my experience French cooking just seems a lot more effort then most other cusines.

The percieved amount of work/skill required of create a successful dish is high and the probability of screwing it up also seems high.

This impression has also been cultivated by the fact that French cuisine is seen as the pinnacle of cooking.

Also pretty sure that if you randomly selected about 50 recipes from across several different cusines, I bet the average number of ingredient would be highest in the french recipes and probably the longest prep and cooking time.

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That's not completely true, IMHO, because you're not distinguishing between French haute cuisine and everyday French cooking. A case in point: tonight, I cooked Steak with Sauce Chateau. The reduction sauce (cooked in the same pan the steaks were browned in) consisted of 5 ingredients (minced shallots, white wine, beef stock, a dab of tomato paste, and butter) plus salt & pepper, and took less than 5 minutes to put together. It can't get much simpler than that. The other night I made French crepes for 2 adults and 2 kids -- they took about the same length of time to cook and assemble as a batch of American pancakes and were so much more elegant!

How about omelettes? Salade Nicoise? Boeuf Bourguignon (= beef stew), Boeuf en Daube (= pot roast), Coq au Vin (= chicken casserole). All these dishes take little more skill or cooking time than their American counterparts. I'd list more easy dishes but it's 1:00 am here and my brain is not functioning... but you get the idea.

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I think you may be contradicting yourself -- omlettes take noticebly more technique than scrambled eggs; Salad nicoise, with several different vegetables cooked or blanched separately, takes more time than crumbling bacon and hard-"bleu cheese" over a Chef's Salad; and Boeuf Bourguignon is noticebly more complicated than the "Irish Stew" my mom used to make (not even counting Thomas Keller's cheesecloth apprach).

Not that any of these is particualrly challenging in the greater scheme of things, but they definitely take more effort and knowledge than their American counterparts, and most home cooks didn't grow up with a French mother or Grande Mere to teach them the techniques.

[Bux]

I think you may be contradicting yourself -- omlettes take noticebly more technique than scrambled eggs;

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Au contaire. Omlettes take but a few seconds while properly scrambled eggs take constant stirring over a low flame for several minutes and a precise moment to remove them from heat and stir in a lump of cold butter. Wait, I'm not talking about scrambled eggs, that's oeufs brouillés

I'm not at all sure that French cooking is any more complicated than American cooking, but it is cooking that's traditionally paid attention to detail. I knew friends who maintained that Julia Child's recipes had too many steps or were too complicated. They weren't, but they had instructions all along the process that ensured success. I remember how using Julia's early books changed the way my wife and I cooked American and Puerto Rican food. You can make stew by tossing meat and vegetables into hot water and cooking them long enough, but there's a lot you can do to make a better stew and perhaps that's the essence of French cuisine to most of us, though I'm not at all convinced good cooks in non English speaking countries didn't also use many of these same techniques with different seasonings.

[bleudauvergne]

Let's see.

It would be worthwhile to take chefzadi's question into consideration and examine precisely why people aren't posting a lot about French cooking here in the France forum.

We would be simply delighted to have more threads on technique or specific dishes or recipe notes on the France forum. Reasons why the forum has not developed in that direction could be about the makeup of the group. There are lots and lots of threads about eating in restaurants here in France rather than cooking because, quite frankly, we have a lot of restaurant enthusiasts regularly posting on the forum.

We have a few French members who speak excellent English, and who are also experts in French cooking or recipe development as a vocation. It would be simply wonderful to see these members participate in that capacity.

The idea of a cooking sejour has become more and more popular as a vacation possibility, and we'll most likely see more diaries like that of Adam Balic's Tuscan Diary or Ore's Slow Food Diary here in the France forum.

About cooking and living the French way - and why this seems complex. Obtaining any level of proficiency in a technique foreign to your own can of course represent certain complexities. Some people don't feel that it's worth the effort. That's not to say the very same people wouldn't read a thread about technique or cooking with a certain French ingredient and be inspired by it. I encourage anyone who has an interest and wants to discuss cooking the French way to dive in, and anyone with an interest in learning or reading about the experiences of others should positively foster these types of threads as an asset to the forum. If you see something you like, your encouragement and expression of interest is helpful.

About "complexity". The complexity for many Americans is not in technique but in the challenge of sourcing the right ingredients. Another challenge can be found in the learning curve - but please note - the curve only has to be battled once! This learning process can only be successful by actually working through the techniques. We all know the complexities of describing a simple process. Try explaining how to ride a bike to someone if you would like an example. But the reality remains that a minimal amount of effort to source ingredients with the right qualities and some time in the kitchen to execute a few dishes pays off very quickly. Try it. You might suprise yourself.

[origamicrane]

also for me i think that French cuisine has a certain air about it.

some may call it snobbery

hehe!!

ok before i get flamed i like to put that last comment into context.

French cuisine rightly or wrongly is seen as the top cuisine in the world.

The world top cooking schools or at least the most expensive are cordon bleu?

The French are very protective of there culture be it language, wine or food.

The French can be fanatical/purists about their food and do usually look down on

attempts to modernise/modify it.

On average outside of France, French food is probably the most expensive.

With all that in mind I think that beginner cooks would not attempt French cuisine

as their first endeavour into cooking.

[Busboy]

Let's see.     

About "complexity". The complexity for many Americans is not in technique but in the challenge of sourcing the right ingredients.  .  

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Maybe I'm lucky living in DC, and certainly I haven't had nearly the opportunity to scour the French countryside for ingredients I'd like, but I feel like ingredients is one place we're doing relatively well. Of course, we don't have a truffle market here, and the varieties of various foodstuffs changes (no rouget or French Belons alas ), but sourcing seems to be less of a challenge every year.

Finding 30 minutes to scramble eggs -- Bux, you forgot about shaving the black truffles in -- that's a challenge.

Edited March 15, 2005 by Busboy (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I always assumed that the focus of this forum was food in France and travel to and within France, and that French and Italian and American etc. cooking should be posted in the Cooking forum.

[bleudauvergne]

I always assumed that the focus of this forum was food in France and travel to and within France, and that French and Italian and American etc. cooking should be posted in the Cooking forum.

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It really depends on what it is you're cooking, Margaret. If I decide to prepare quenelles at home, and want to hear some quenelle stories from the members here, ideas about what's classic, and what kind of interesting takes on this dish have been coming up here and there, I'm going to share my experience here on the France forum. I would probably post my notes on the actual cooking of the dish. In the general cooking forum I may get some technical feedback or response, but that's not always what I'm looking for. In the France forum I will get a plethora of responses from people who have had interesting experiences with regards to that dish.

For me the cooking process involves a certain element of story, and this forum is where that story is. There are people here who can and have contributed so much by the simple virtue of a common intensity of experience with regards to things culinary in this country.

Discussing how a dish is prepared is not forbidden in the France forum, far from it.

[zeitoun]

In the France forum I will get a plethora of responses from people who have had interesting experiences with regards to that dish. 

For me the cooking process involves a certain element of story, and in many cases, this forum is where that story is.  There are people here who can and have contributed so much by the simple virtue of a common intensity of experience with regards to things culinary in this country. 

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I think this explains very well why we should also post cooking related matters on the France forum. There is more to a dish than just a recipe. By discussing French cooking in the France forum, members who do not know much about it are given an opportunity to learn in a context that goes beyond what we may read or know through cookbooks.

I also agree with Chefzadi's point that there is much more to French cooking than we may think. Food culture and cooking styles in France are divided into a myriad of sub regions that often differ drastically from one another. I think the France forum is a better venue to have those discussions than the cooking forum.

[Ptipois]

Right now there is this fascinating thread on turned vegetables... See, that's about a French cooking technique. I actually wish there were more threads like that one.

Thing is, one has to consider the way threads are started in this subsection. They often start on some question about restaurants, how to find such and such a kind of food in some town or region, travel advice, etc. Some people here are knowledgeable about the techniques of French cooking; some (ahem) even are French. But they rarely start a thread about a recipe.

Now French cooking isn't only haute cuisine or even fancy bistrot food (which can be very fancy indeed), it is also chicken with tarragon, stockfish à la niçoise, omelette aux cèpes, haricot de mouton, endives au gratin, frisée aux lardons, moules à la poulette, peach cardinale or cake au chocolat et au beurre salé, all dishes that seem to remain hidden behind fancy cuisine. And this cuisine is not more complicated or haughty than any other. But the proof that it is sadly ovelooked lies in Origamicrane's description of French cooking as "having an air of snobbery about it"... Because only haute cuisine and chic restaurant food could fit this description, and they are only a partial aspect of French cuisine. At home, I cook French food when I am too tired or busy to cook Chinese or Thai or North African, etc. To me, French cuisine is the simplest.

The stress on restaurant cooking in this subsection probably puts everyday French food in the background. And the French amongst us (I, for instance) never think of starting a thread about poulet à l'estragon because they already know a lot about it and have no special questions to ask. But they (or rather I) sure would love to be asked about it.

Edited March 15, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[Busboy]

I confess that I always though "France" was about going to France. But this thread popped up the same night the turned vegetable question popped into my head -- and I somehow suspected that it would get a response -- so I posted it on this forum, rather than on "Cooking." Live and learn, I say.

One more thought on the snobbery/complexity front (not that I retreat for a second from my assertion that French Cooking is generally more complex than the American cooking many of us grew up with -- Hell, you have to cook the French Fries twice in France!).

Until recently, when the bistro craze began spreading across the land, going to a French restaurant generally meant wearing a tie, eating in a formal dining room and dealing with complex meals requiring many forks. And, for better or for worse, that type of restaurant still evokes French food in the eyes of many Americans. It's no wonder that they have a different viewpoint than people who cook it every day as a matter of course, or see it as a warming, inexpensive way to have dinner out.

[SuzySushi]

Now French cooking isn't only haute cuisine or even fancy bistrot food (which can be very fancy indeed), it is also chicken with tarragon, stockfish à la niçoise, omelette aux cèpes, haricot de mouton, endives au gratin, frisée aux lardons, moules à la poulette, peach cardinale or cake au chocolat et au beurre salé, all dishes that seem to remain hidden behind fancy cuisine.

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Ohhhhhhhhhh.... you're making me hungry!!!

[Ptipois]

Ohhhhhhhhhh.... you're making me hungry!!!

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I'm using subliminal communication.

[Ptipois]

One more thought on the snobbery/complexity front (not that I retreat for a second from my assertion that French Cooking is generally more complex than the American cooking many of us grew up with -- Hell, you have to cook the French Fries twice in France!).

Not in Brittany - all joking apart, there are two schools for the fries. The one-stage fying and the two-stage frying. Which in a way confirms the complexity thing, but if I may allow myself to insist, French restaurant food may be described as complex and sometimes snobbish. French popular traditional food is no more complex or snobbish than British, Chinese, Thai, Mid-Eastern food, etc. Indian cooking, when done properly, IS more complicated than French cooking. It all depends on what you mean by "American cooking many of us grew up with" because I don't have a clear idea of this.

Until recently, when the bistro craze began spreading across the land, going to a French restaurant generally meant wearing a tie, eating in a formal dining room and dealing with complex meals requiring many forks.  And, for better or for worse, that type of restaurant still evokes French food in the eyes of many Americans.

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See? That's exactly why there's this shyness about French cooking. It exported only its more intimidating aspects while other cuisines didn't. In France, restaurants that require a suit and tie are actually very few. Now let me make this clear: there definitely is a snobbish component in French cuisine, I'm not going to deny that. But it shouldn't paralyze people to the point of ignoring the more human aspects of this (still) living tradition.

[origamicrane]

another aspect that i think enforces the snobbery thing is this

there are chinese takeaways,

there are indian takeaways,

there are thai takeaways,

there are italian takeaways,

there are fish and chips takeaway , (british)

there are kebab takeaways, (med- middle east)

there are hamburger takeaways, (american)

but has anyone seen a french takeaway outside of france??

[Hiroyuki]

I think that part of is that there are quite a few French language sites that cover cooking, recipe sharing, techniques. But surely non-Francophones must want to know about French cooking, techniques, regional differences, home recipes...

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OK, suppose that I have a specific question about French cuisines, for example, "How do I make rice stand out in a French meal?" and start a thread asking for replies, do you think I will get immediate response from members active in the France Forum?

[bleudauvergne]

I think that part of is that there are quite a few French language sites that cover cooking, recipe sharing, techniques. But surely non-Francophones must want to know about French cooking, techniques, regional differences, home recipes...

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OK, suppose that I have a specific question about French cuisines, for example, "How do I make rice stand out in a French meal?" and start a thread asking for replies, do you think I will get immediate response from members active in the France Forum?

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I think you will.