Undercooked Food

[Timh]

Raw quail eggs are common in japanese cuisine. As a topping for sushi(salmon roe), as a slurry w/ shoyu, and just folded into rice. All wonderfull. And the other nite while having the tasting menu at CLIO here in Beantown, one course was a spoon w/ a quail yolk, uni, and ossetra(raw,raw,raw) yummy, and another dish was a kummamoto oyster, uni, and ossetra, w/ ponzu. delicious also.

Tim

[chefzadi]

I've never heard of parsley jus. Is that a California thing?

Not sure, I think I saw things like rosemary jus, parsley nage and such on fine dining menus outside of California. Sometimes a culinary term gets overused in the States such as coulis, then the menu writer's change it to puree or soubise. Reduction sauces become passe in the minds of a few foodwriters, suddenly it's all about jus. There is quite a bit of false innovation that's made up by applying different words to the same stuff.

EDIT: I do know what is sometimes meant by parsley jus. It means jus that has a little chopped parsly in it or has been infused with parsley. I don't know if I would write it on a menu that way.

Edited March 13, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[Busboy]

Yep, another one of those "restaurants don't know what they are doing" threads.

Most vegitables should have a certain amount of tooth to them.  If you like yours softer, please tell your server when you order.  Is it that difficult or should the chef be able to exert mental telepathy to determine that table 16 likes their veggies over cooked?

There are also a plethora of all you can eat buffets that can accomodate those who like mushy veggies.  In fact, I once won a twenty dollar bet for chocking down an entire monkey dish of broccoli at Furrs.

If you don't like seared tuna, don't order it, or tell your server how you want it cooked.  Problem solved.  It is like going to a sushi bar and complaining that the fish is underdone.  Or it is like going to a Porsche dealer and complaining that they don't sell mini vans.  I was serving seared tuna ten years ago, and sold out of it almost every night.  Someone likes it.

If you like your pork well....order it that way.

Are you seeing a trend here?

You are the customer.  Tell the server what you want.  In most cases, you will be accomodated.  If you have to change the preperation of every item on the menu, there is a chance that you are in the wrong restaurant to begin with.

By the way, I can't believe that there would be someone with "Chef" in their name that would be shocked by raw eggs.  They have been serving runny eggs in every diner in America for how long.  Raw eggs are not a trend.  They are tradition from the greasy spoon to the fine restaurant.

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Maybe we should move you to the "defensive chefs" forum.

[Chris Amirault]

Fascinating thread. Two thoughts:

I like meat medium rare, fish just barely cooked, and vegetables done however the thing ought to be done. But what I mostly want is for the chef to prepare the thing the way she wants it prepared. I have found that answering the question, "How do you want it done?" with "As the chef prefers," has lead every single time to a properly prepared piece of meat. Might it be true, oh professional chefs on this thread, that such a request is met with appreciation from the kitchen? Or am I kiddin' myself? (I also buy beer for the back regularly. Really! I do!!)

While I'm glad to put my venison in the chef's able hands, there is one item about which I have a set spiel concerning doneness. Here is what I say whenever I want toast:

"I'd like white toast cooked dark. I don't mean beige dark; I mean dark brown dark. You can't toast it too dark. I won't send it back. I promise."

I think that this is the only way to get toast toasted -- at least in the joints I frequent!

[emmalish]

Here is what I say whenever I want toast:

"I'd like white toast cooked dark. I don't mean beige dark; I mean dark brown dark. You can't toast it too dark. I won't send it back. I promise."

I think that this is the only way to get toast toasted -- at least in the joints I frequent!

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Oh, man, I have such a problem with toast in restaurants. I don't know whether they're just trying to save time, or if it's how most people prefer their toast, because everyone else I know seems fine with it. Toast is supposed to be brown and crunchy. The slightly beige, warm piece of bread I usually end up with? That's not toast.

I'm with you, chrisamirault, short of burning it, you can't toast it too much.

As for the undercooked vegetables, I've gotten them a few times too. My preference is not for overcooked, mushy vegetables -- I like my vegetables to still have crunch. But when the carrot cannot even be pierced with a fork? That's undercooked.

[ratgirlny]

I totally agree on the seared tuna thing. It is like tuna that couldn't make up its mind. I usually scrape off the cooked part and then pretend that it is sashimi.

The undercooked veggie thing has been going on since the 80's. I always hated it, but my new pet peeve is dry overcooked roasted veggies that taste like shoe leather. I guess it is really hard to cook veggies CORRECTLY?

And avoid anything with "grilled chicken" because I know it is going to be that prepackaged, dried out chicken with the fake looking grill marks.

[eunny jang]

Re: vegetables

It's an Alice Waters thing, no? It's all well and good if you're serving pristine, harvested-during-the-narrow-window-of-peak-flavor, in-season vegetables that really shine with just a little heat and seasoning. Not so great if it's zucchini in January as part of the "fire-grilled mixed vegetables" side at a steakhouse.

[bavila]

I'm so glad to not be alone in disliking seared tuna. The first time I ordered it (early in my ongoing food education) I didn't know that I should expect the bright red center, and the waiter tried to argue with me when I sent it back to be butterflied and cooked a bit more. It is never cool for restaurant staff to act haughty with customers (ie throwing dictionaries at them) for being less knowledgeable about food. And now that I know I don't like it, I order accordingly!

[RETREVR]

Yep, another one of those "restaurants don't know what they are doing" threads.

Most vegitables should have a certain amount of tooth to them.  If you like yours softer, please tell your server when you order.  Is it that difficult or should the chef be able to exert mental telepathy to determine that table 16 likes their veggies over cooked?

There are also a plethora of all you can eat buffets that can accomodate those who like mushy veggies.  In fact, I once won a twenty dollar bet for chocking down an entire monkey dish of broccoli at Furrs.

If you don't like seared tuna, don't order it, or tell your server how you want it cooked.  Problem solved.  It is like going to a sushi bar and complaining that the fish is underdone.  Or it is like going to a Porsche dealer and complaining that they don't sell mini vans.  I was serving seared tuna ten years ago, and sold out of it almost every night.  Someone likes it.

If you like your pork well....order it that way.

Are you seeing a trend here?

You are the customer.  Tell the server what you want.  In most cases, you will be accomodated.  If you have to change the preperation of every item on the menu, there is a chance that you are in the wrong restaurant to begin with.

By the way, I can't believe that there would be someone with "Chef" in their name that would be shocked by raw eggs.  They have been serving runny eggs in every diner in America for how long.  Raw eggs are not a trend.  They are tradition from the greasy spoon to the fine restaurant.

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Maybe we should move you to the "defensive chefs" forum.

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I'm allready there.

[RETREVR]

I think one of the big problems today is the way many menus are written. Some chefs will basically list the ingredients in the dish with region of origin, or even the farm they come from. One dish may have a twenty word description including all the engredients, but leave you wondering what the dammed thing is. The description will sound like you would be getting a platter of groceries. When the plate comes , it is a dish the size of a credit card.

I was looking at a menu for a Cakebread tasting at the Broadmoor coming up. Looks like a great menu but it is way too descriptive In both ingredients and presentation. There is nothing left to the imagination. The duck could simply be called "Duck Confit" , Or "wild berried duck confit". Instead the item is called "Duck confit on wild berryfrench toast of brioche with wild berries and a red wine demi-glace reduction and melange of vegitables and a sprig of rosemary on top. Nothing left to the imagination there, but nobody would order it expectiong something completely different either.

[chefzadi]

The description will sound like you would be getting a platter of groceries. When the plate comes , it is a dish the size of a credit card.

Hilarious!

[TheFoodTutor]

I'm so glad to not be alone in disliking seared tuna.  The first time I ordered it (early in my ongoing food education) I didn't know that I should expect the bright red center, and the waiter tried to argue with me when I sent it back to be butterflied and cooked a bit more.  It is never cool for restaurant staff to act haughty with customers (ie throwing dictionaries at them) for being less knowledgeable about food.  And now that I know I don't like it, I order accordingly!

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You're certainly allowed to not like seared tuna. As I mentioned before, I personally prefer tuna as sashimi or possibly seared (if done correctly) and lesser cuts of tuna can be cooked through, but I prefer to let others eat the lesser cuts of tuna.

But you should know that a server is not necessarily being "haughty" when telling a patron what the word "seared" means. Before I served the public, I thought that everyone was like an eGulleteer, having watched numerous cooking shows (after all, there is a whole network) and it's nearly impossible to watch more than a couple of cooking shows and not notice that, when cooks "sear" things, they just briefly let it touch the pan on both sides.

Now, at the restaurant where I work, it not only clearly lists that the tuna salad will come "seared," but the menu goes into overkill by also describing it as "sashimi," just in case anyone might not get the hint that it's going to be mostly raw. On top of that, if someone points at the description of this salad on our menu, and they hesitantly ask me if it's a good salad, and whether they should order it, I answer, "Oh, that's a terrific salad. Perfectly seared tuna, just barely cooked for a brief second on the outside, almost raw throughout. It's a great option for fans of sushi."

Since I'm pretty good at guessing which of my customers don't like raw fish (hint: they pronounce the name of the salad "sash-aw-mi"), this way I can watch them recoil at the idea that anyone would put raw tuna in his mouth without actually wasting the food item in question, and they immediately say, "EEEeeeewwwwwww! No, I wouldn't like that." And then they order something else.

Now, if I'm delivering a salad of this type to a table where a less knowledgable server has not properly indicated what this salad will be like, I do always make a point of telling the guest that, since it says it's "seared" on the menu, that means that the tuna will be nearly raw, so if you don't like it that way, please do not order it again, or at least ask for it to be fully cooked if you do order it, because it's very costly for restaurants to be wasting sushi-grade tuna over and over until patrons learn what words mean. Moreover, it's a crap experience for the guest, because everyone else at the table will have their food while the one person who doesn't like seared tuna sent it back and is waiting for it to be recooked.

Would you rather I say nothing and let the patron waste 5 pieces of fish before he or she figures out that "seared" means "mostly raw?" Personally, I'd rather not. It hardly seems moral for that much fish to go to waste.

[TheFoodTutor]

And I'm sorry if it appears "haughty" to other folks out there, but if you have enough brain power to remember the first and last names of the latest contestants on the reality show du jour, is it too much to expect that you know enough about food to be able to order in a restaurant? I mean, in the case of the "seared" "sashimi" tuna, an animal died for this dish (or at least part of one), and I think it is the utmost in arrogance for patrons to insist that the dish be sent back and have another one prepared, because in spite of the best of warnings, they still didn't figure out that the fish would be nearly raw, and horror of horrors, they can't be expected to actually try something new, even when it's something perfectly safe for human consumption.

For Pete's sake, people, when I go to restaurants and I unwittingly order something that turns out to be very different from what I thought it would be (which does happen to me sometimes, since I go to strange restaurants staffed by non-English speakers all the time) I just go ahead and try it to see if I like this new, strange thing. And if I don't really like it that much, I box it up to go so that I can eat it later or let my friends try it.

Sometimes I feel like I'm watching Steve Martin in that scene from "The Jerk" where he sends back his escargot because it has snails all over it. Cripes.

[touaregsand]

Most of us who've tried seared tuna and didn't like it probably didn't keep reordering it at restaurants hoping it wouldn't be seared the next time, or cooked medium or well done. I actually tried it at work as part of a staff tasting a long, long time ago. My rather small, but continuing gripe with it was the arrogance some chefs (especially here in LA LA LA land) declaring that it was "really the best and only way to eat a certain type of tuna." I've read a few posts here on egullet pretty echoing that attitude. That rubbed me the wrong the way. But it's not a big deal. I just mentioned it because we're chit chatting here, not chastising (I hope ). I also wouldn't criticise a place for serving it. We did a special pharmaceutical dinner once. Typically we are given carte blanch on these types of parties. But you know what? For one of them my hubby was asked if the chef could please do a seared tuna course. He obliged of course.

And Food Tutor I don't think anything you said is "haughty". But I do think you're really funny.

an animal died for this dish (or at least part of one)

How does part of an animal die?

[TheFoodTutor]

And Food Tutor I don't think anything you said is "haughty".  But I do think you're really funny.

I try. I like telling funny stories about the people I see in the busier restaurant where I work, because people say some really silly things, and the more people you see, the sillier the things that you will witness.

You know, people could just ask me what the word "sashimi" means, and I'd tell them. I've answered the question, "What kind of pasta is in the risotto?" enough times that I'd even answer with a straight face.

an animal died for this dish (or at least part of one)

How does part of an animal die?

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Are there restaurants in Japan where they hack off bits of cattle while they're still alive, or is that an urban legend? Presumably, people who would go there probably know what they're ordering, though, so I guess that would be a moot point.

[Busboy]

I'd like to gently suggest that, since most people didn't grow up eating seared tuna, or working in restaurants, (or knowing why you can't stock an entire walk-in full of Key Lime Pies "just in case") that the comments like "if you have enough brain power to remember the first and last names of the latest contestants on the reality show du jour, is it too much to expect that you know enough about food to be able to order in a restaurant?" are, perhaps, unfair, to many if not most diners.

Sure, it's fun to vent about the rubes -- and people who were warned what to expect and still send food back deserve the attitude they get in return -- but explaining what risotto is withot smirking isn't really so hard, is it?

[TheFoodTutor]

Sure, it's fun to vent about the rubes -- and people who were warned what to expect and still send food back deserve the attitude they get in return -- but explaining what risotto is withot smirking isn't really so hard, is it?

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Not to worry. My restaurant is a smirk-free workplace. After all, there really are not stupid questions. In fact, I'm guilty of asking too many questions, most of the time. My boyfriend gets upset when I ask servers questions about food items on the menu, even when I don't intend to order those items, simply because I want to know what certain foods are or what their preparation involves.

The only times I ever say anything snotty to a guest is when I'm absolutely sure the guest will get the joke. One day, a customer asked me if he could have some more water and I responded, "No. You can't. We're out of water." Of course he laughed, and I went and got his water.

Having a sense of humor is a must if one works in this profession for any length of time.

[fimbul]

I love this thread. It reminds me why I'm quitting my job.

One of the problems with working any job where you face the public is answering questions. Whether you wait tables or work tech support, it's just a matter of time before you get just a little... exasperated. Sadly, however, just because you've answered a question eleventy-four MILLION times doesn't mean it's not the first time it ever occured to the poor person asking what cilantro is or where to find his or her "any" key. Just because it's basic common sense to you, doesn't mean the guy at table 7 knows not to adorn his raw oysters with Easy-Cheez or the woman on the phone knows turning the monitor off and on isn't "rebooting". Assuming at any time that you know in what "basic" knowledge consists is just asking to be flummoxed by someone who knows fuck-all about your specialty (but who might be utterly devastated by what you, you poor ignorant sap, dunno about welding/playing the horses/physics/child-rearing). At the same time, it's inevitable that the public-facing-professional will want to scream, at some point or another, "Christ!, you MORON, it's edamame! Eh-Duh-MAH-May! Just PUT IT IN YOUR MOUTH!" and storm off. Professionalism, I guess, lies in not doing that.

On the other hand, many people going out to dine are perfectly content, I think, to ask for what they want, assuming, of course, they can go out often enough to find out what what-they-want is. If I'm eating out at Chez FancyPants, if I ask a dumb question, as long as I'm not holding the waiter's tie and pulling his face into mine as I ask my question at 1,00 decibels, I expect him to wait until he's back with the other servers before talking about what an ignorant asshat I am, even if I'm sipping from the finger bowl as I ask him what's in this foie gras stuff the cityfolk like so much.

My point, I guess, is that the communication break-downs being described in this thread are just that. They're potholes created by differing contexts and knowledge-bases. The pro's job is to steer around them, the public's job is not to put up a fight or throw a fit, but to enjoy the ride with grace.

As for crunchy veggies, well, I'll let the kitchen cook for me, and assume what's on my plate represents the chef's idea of What the Meal Ought to Be. If I don't like it, I'll do my best to determine whether it was a mistake, or Creative Differences. If the latter, I'll tell myself it's educational; if the former, well, it's annoying, but hardly the end of the world.

edit: typos

Edited March 16, 2005 by fimbul (log)

[chefzadi]

When I read some of the "complaints" on egullet, I wonder where such customers have been throughout my entire career. Beef or lamb cooked to customer preferences are obviously standard. I just can't imagine, "can the kitchen cook my vegetables slightly soft or a little under." Even with fish I just don't recall too many requests regarding temp.

[emmapeel]

...when I go to restaurants and I unwittingly order something that turns out to be very different from what I thought it would be (which does happen to me sometimes, since I go to strange restaurants staffed by non-English speakers all the time) I just go ahead and try it to see if I like this new, strange thing...

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I swore I'd never eat mussels. I mean when I was growing up they were all over the beach at Coney Island, (yes, I'm a peasant) but in Paris one night, alone, and mind you I speak enough French to read a menu (or so I thought) I thought that "moulles" were medallions of pork and ordered them. When they brought Mussels and frites, I was flabbergasted and too embarrassed to return them. I thought I'd pretend to eat them, but that pretense turned into unabashed love, and now I search the city for great places to have them.

On the other hand one night in Sydney, I ordered an appetizer of tandoori chicken, an entree of salmon and instructed them to make it well. "No," they insisted, please first try it the way the Chef makes it. So, I went along. The chicken was practically raw, and I returned it. The waiter came back and said, "The Chef wants to know if you want your salmon well done, because he has to make you a new chicken dish, and wants you to be sure about what you want". Well, I never!

[canucklehead]

I was reading Marcella Hazan latest cookbook (Marcella Says...) and I was struck by how long she insisted on the vegetables being cooked. The results of her pasta and meat recipes have always been excellent. But in her recipe for escarole soup, the escarole is braised with a little stock for 45min - before adding stock and completing the soup for another 30min. She parboils her aspargus as basic prep before using it a recipe for further cooking.

Being Cantonese and a cook of a certain age (say less then 45 - very abritrary I know) - I have always cooked my veggies while still trying to retain the snap of freshness. But even my friends say they are tired of undercooked veggies and now cook their green beans until there is no "squeek" - ie no bite to the tooth.

I wonder if this preference for more lightly cooked veggies a result of having better produce and therefore cooking to retain the inherent freshness of ingredient - or is this a generational preference. That being said - I hate undercooked peppers, eggplants (well - eggplant in general), cauliflower and mushrooms.

Mrs Peel - We are needed!

[TheFoodTutor]

I swore I'd never eat mussels.  I mean when I was growing up they were all over the beach at Coney Island, (yes, I'm a peasant) but in Paris one night, alone, and mind you I speak enough French to read a menu (or so I thought) I thought that "moulles" were medallions of pork and ordered them.  When they brought Mussels and frites, I was flabbergasted and too embarrassed to return them.  I thought I'd pretend to eat them, but that pretense turned into unabashed love, and now I search the city for great places to have them. 

That's an extraordinarily nice story. I wish that more people would take an adventurous attitude to trying new foods this way.

For my personal preference, as far as the cooking of vegetables, because I grew up mostly eating canned vegetables and sometimes frozen ones, those being cheaper and more plentiful in the area where I lived, I far prefer fresh vegetables that are very lightly cooked now. Asian styles of quickly stir-frying vegetables are the ones I like best. In my adulthood, I've been surprised to learn that it wasn't actually a certain vegetable that I didn't like, but rather the mushy version of that vegetable that repulsed me.

To each his own, I guess.

[Stigand]

Once more on the seared tuna theme (sorry this comes late - I've been away).

Here's the excerpt I alluded to earlier: the British food writer Matthew Fort on southern Italian ways with tuna and swordfish.

I learnt another valuable lesson about swordfish, which applies equally to tuna. If you cut a swordfish or tuna steak about three centimetres thick and cook it right through to bring out the flavour, the flesh dries out and becomes fibrous and tough. So British chefs came up with the bastard concept of the seared tuna. This produces a nice brown crust about half a centimetre deep, beneath which is not nearly so nice, cold, raw and virtually tasteless fish. They tried to persuade us that it was a good thing, when we knew, in our heart of hearts, that it was really pretty nasty. The Italians have been at the business of cooking swordfish and tuna rather longer, and have got it worked out. They cut the fish into slices about one centimetre thick, and cook it very fast by grilling, frying - a padella - in olive oil over a very high heat, and then add salmoriglio (which is no more than olive oil, lemon, garlic and oregano), or just a splash of lemon and a dash of salt. The result is that the fish is cooked through, which brings on the flavour nicely, and still tender and toothsome.

From Eating Up Italy: Voyages on a Vespa.

A bit 'Emperor's New Clothes', and I'd question whether seared tuna was devised in the UK, but I couldn't agree more with the sentiment.

[touaregsand]

I'd question whether seared tuna was devised in the UK,

Highly doubtful that it was invented in the UK.

Hawaii or California.

[Tess]

I'd question whether seared tuna was devised in the UK,

Highly doubtful that it was invented in the UK.

Hawaii or California.

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Or Japan? Or is tuna tataki an import from the US to Japan?