Defensive Chefs

[Hest88]

I agree, but here is the thing I dont get..I have to draw from Randi's example again..why is bringing out the raw crabcakes considered 'creating a scene'?

Okay, I've stayed out of this for 5 pages, but seeing this question coming up AGAIN has made me leap for my keyboard. Perhaps to some people it's no big deal to be stared at, but to have the chef march into the dining room with a plate of raw food, and stand there pedantically explaining and pointing to the food while a roomful of patrons watches and wonders what the diner could possibly have done to warrant having the chef come out is indeed "creating a scene." The chef made the problem public instead of keeping it private. It's the equivalent of having the boss lecture you in the middle of the floor instead of calling you into his office. It creates whispers and gossip and questions among people who have no business being privy to your issue. That's a scene.

[FaustianBargain]

The key thing her is Randi's intentions.  They were good.  She wasn't being unreasonable, she wasn't trying to be showy, she wasn't trying get food for free.

Agree.

The Chef bringing out raw food to 'educate' her was simply not useful in addressing the issue.  I would have sat there and said - 'so what!?'.  How was it useful in any way in addressing her commentary?

Here is where I have a problem. While the customer has the right to complain, how come the chef doesnt have the right to address the complaint in any manner..defensive or otherwise.

The raw crabcakes were the evidence, so to speak, werent they? Is it not better than simply telling the customer that they were indeed using quality ingredients? If the message from the kitchen had been a simple verbal, "no. we dont use filler. we only use grade 1 crab lumpmeat.', how convincing would that be to the customer?

HOW do you prove that you are not using inferior/lesser quantity of the promised ingredient?

Remember that this is a new restaurant. They might have as well considered Randi as a regular(her third time there) and taken the liberty of bringing out the raw crab cakes. Maybe the restaurant was empty. Remember too that they are a new restaurant. Maybe eager, but unjustifiably defensive? I dont think so.

The only choice left for the chef is to 'take shit.' It is a no-win situation. It forces one party to take responsibility regardless of facts.

Designchick is right - in my experience whenever a situation seems to get out of control - it is no longer about the issue at hand but the baggage and crap being dragged in to it.

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An assumption was made and a message was passed. Evidence was brought out to dispel the doubts about the quality of the ingredients used. Which part of this string of events was 'out of control'. Why the knee jerk reaction and defensiveness about the allegedly unjustified defensiveness of the chef?

Now, what really bothers me is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that it was not an inappropriate reaction. Whether or not it was required is a different question. Maybe I am just not in touch with the Real World.

[TheFoodTutor]

If you work for or with other people, periodically you (generic "you" here) are going to have to lick ass or "eat shit" as we put it at my job. That means sometimes - not always, but sometimes - you will have to apologize for things that aren't your fault, accept blame when you aren't responsible for the infraction, and be nice to people who aren't nice to you.

Yup. That's the truth.

A few years ago, I was managing a restaurant that's part of a large chain, the sort of place that serves predictable burgers and a few mild Tex-Mex items. They did a lot of to go business, and I received a complaint one evening from a gentleman who had picked up dinner for his family, and he wanted to inform me that there was a layer of mold on the top of his cup of salsa. Now, since I knew that we didn't pre-pour cups of salsa, and that they were scooped to order, there would be no way for mold to grow on the surface of the salsa, and if we did actually have mold growing in the salsa, which would be very unlikely, that it would be distributed through the salsa when whoever had ladled this particular cup disturbed the salsa in the bin.

Moreover, I knew that our salsa bin was right next to our chip warmer, and sometimes a white corn tortilla chip would fall into the salsa, where it would disintegrate into a soggy mass. This is not unsanitary, and one can just scoop it out, or ladle around it to avoid getting soggy chip schmeg in the cup. But I also knew that my to go girl was constantly hard at work, dreaming up smokey love letters to write to our bartender, so she obviously was distracted, scooped the soggy chip into his cup, and he assumed that this was "mold."

So, I invited the man to come into our kitchen, which he did, and I showed him the salsa bin, next to the chip warmer, and explained the situation. I then pulled the 1/3rd pan out of the low boy and showed him the date sticker, indicating the salsa was made fresh that morning. Then, I took him back to the walk-in and showed him exactly how much fresh salsa we prepared every day, and how as many as 20 1/3rd pans would be used in less than 24 hours, so salsa never sits around long enough to get moldy, and all of the remaining 1/3rd pans were, indeed, dated from that day's prep. And then I asked him if he was satisfied that there was no mold in his salsa, and if there was anything else I could possibly do for him.

And though he agreed with me that there could not have been mold in the salsa, he took this opportunity to ask me to refund the bill for his entire family's meals, because, in his words, "I couldn't eat my chips and salsa, and I can't eat Mexican food without chips and salsa."

And you know what? I gave him all his money back, and I refrained from pointing out that the food we served was about as far from actual "Mexican" food as I could think of, because really, there's no need to be snotty, even when you're eating a shit sandwich.

[Tess]

Now, what really bothers me is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that it was not an inappropriate reaction.

With respect, I think there might be a reason for that.

[designchick88]

I agree, but here is the thing I dont get..I have to draw from Randi's example again..why is bringing out the raw crabcakes considered 'creating a scene'?

Okay, I've stayed out of this for 5 pages, but seeing this question coming up AGAIN has made me leap for my keyboard. Perhaps to some people it's no big deal to be stared at, but to have the chef march into the dining room with a plate of raw food, and stand there pedantically explaining and pointing to the food while a roomful of patrons watches and wonders what the diner could possibly have done to warrant having the chef come out is indeed "creating a scene." The chef made the problem public instead of keeping it private. It's the equivalent of having the boss lecture you in the middle of the floor instead of calling you into his office. It creates whispers and gossip and questions among people who have no business being privy to your issue. That's a scene.

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Exactly. Very well said. There's a right way to make an opinion known and a wrong way. The difference between the two is called discretion. I still contend the restaurant manager is ultimately at fault here, but the chef should have known better also.

[FaustianBargain]

Now, what really bothers me is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that it was not an inappropriate reaction.

With respect, I think there might be a reason for that.

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Yes?

[designchick88]

The raw crabcakes were the evidence, so to speak, werent they? Is it not better than simply telling the customer that they were indeed using quality ingredients? If the message from the kitchen had been a simple verbal, "no. we dont use filler. we only use grade 1 crab lumpmeat.', how convincing would that be to the customer?

It's not about "convincing" the customer of anything. Randi didn't need to be "convinced" the restaurant was in the right. And the restaurant shouldn't have been more concerned about whether the chef was right or wrong than whether or not Randi, as a customer, was happy and comfortable.

HOW do you prove that you are not using inferior/lesser quantity of the promised ingredient?

You don't. Because that isn't the issue. It isn't about "I am right and you are wrong." It isn't about "proving" anything. It's about "this customer is unhappy - how do we make her happy, so she will come back or at least not badmouth us to other customers?"

Remember that this is a new restaurant. They might have as well considered Randi as a regular(her third time there) and taken the liberty of bringing out the raw crab cakes. Maybe the restaurant was empty. Remember too that they are a new restaurant. Maybe eager, but unjustifiably defensive? I dont think so.

New restaurant or no, as I said in an above post, there's a right way to state an opinion, and a wrong way. The restaurant manager and chef chose the wrong way in this case, IMO.

The only choice left for the chef is to 'take shit.' It is a no-win situation. It forces one party to take responsibility regardless of facts.

Yup. No doubt about that. But like I said - that's life. The alternative is that the chef spends precious time and energy proving to the customer that they are right, and in the process a. drives away customers and b. can't focus on the business at hand, which is cooking and getting customers served. And ultimately, whether or not the chef was "right" in regards to the customer dispute, they lose when they go out of business or have to spend time and money repairing their image. It's called winning the battle and losing the war.

[FaustianBargain]

The only choice left for the chef is to 'take shit.' It is a no-win situation. It forces one party to take responsibility regardless of facts.

Yup. No doubt about that. But like I said - that's life.

How does one preserve self-worth, confidence, motivation and pride in the job if this is the case?

If you grow a 'thick skin' and turn a 'deaf ear' in order to appease the customer, where is the connection between the one who is served and the one who is providing the service?

It is the 'i am the sorry. i am sorry. i am sorry.' equivalent of sticking your fingers into your ears going 'nyah..nyah..nyah..nyah', no? If 'I am sorry' will make everything fine and sunny, then why make any attempt to change from better to best?

[Farns]

How does one preserve self-worth, confidence, motivation and pride in the job if this is the case?

If you grow a 'thick skin' and turn a 'deaf ear' in order to appease the customer, where is the connection between the one who is served and the one who is providing the service?

It is the 'i am the sorry. i am sorry. i am sorry.' equivalent of sticking your fingers into your ears going 'nyah..nyah..nyah..nyah', no? If 'I am sorry' will make everything fine and sunny, then why make any attempt to change from better to best?

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No, but what the chef did in this instance was wrong. It's not like showing her the cakes is gonna change her mind. Why even bother with it? Let the manager handle it. That is what they are for.

[ronnie_suburban]

. . . Here is where I have a problem. While the customer has the right to complain, how come the chef doesnt have the right to address the complaint in any manner..defensive or otherwise. . .

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Of course the chef has the right to do this, but it from a "perpetuating the business" perspective, it isn't a very wise choice.

I think it would put off other customers in the restaurant and possibly bring a relatively small problem, experienced by one customer -- and which may have otherwise slipped away -- front and center for every other customer in the restaurant to see; customers who would have been completely unaware of it, otherwise. Instead of one dissatisfied customer, you now have a dining room full of people wondering what the problem is. If I were the owner, I'd really hope for more savvy from my employees.

It's all about choices. Some are good for business and some are less good. This seems, for the chef involved, like a basic case of winning the battle and losing the war. The idea is not to be right, it's to keep the restaurant full.

=R=

[Irishgirl]

The only choice left for the chef is to 'take shit.' It is a no-win situation. It forces one party to take responsibility regardless of facts.

Yup. No doubt about that. But like I said - that's life.

How does one preserve self-worth, confidence, motivation and pride in the job if this is the case?

If you grow a 'thick skin' and turn a 'deaf ear' in order to appease the customer, where is the connection between the one who is served and the one who is providing the service?

It is the 'i am the sorry. i am sorry. i am sorry.' equivalent of sticking your fingers into your ears going 'nyah..nyah..nyah..nyah', no? If 'I am sorry' will make everything fine and sunny, then why make any attempt to change from better to best?

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You preserve self worth, confidence, motivation and pride, by doing the best work that you can do every day!!!!

Some people will appreciate your efforts and send compliments to the kitchen. THAT is your reward for perservering in the face of adversity.

This, more than anything is YOUR issue not the public's

You cannot depend on other people to make you happy. You have to be happy with yourself. If you are not happy with yourself, then change is necessary.

You do not sound like you enjoy your job very much. (That is assuming that you are a cook/chef?)

[Grub]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm having visions of some sorta Monty Python-meets John Belushi's Samurai Chef skit here -- imagine Toshiro Mifune as the chef, emerging from the kitchen, throwing uncooked crab-cakes at the customers, and committing seppuku with a butter-knife, while John Cleese wails in the background.

"Lucky we didn't say anything about the dirty knife..."

Uh, maybe that IS just me...

(Edit, removed Copyrighted Monty Python pic...)

Edited March 17, 2005 by Grub (log)

[Tess]

Now, what really bothers me is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that it was not an inappropriate reaction.

With respect, I think there might be a reason for that.

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Yes?

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Seriously? I think the reason no one agrees with you is that your judgment of this situation is off, for a whole lot of reasons that people have already explained.

[SuzySushi]

here is the thing I dont get..I have to draw from Randi's example again..why is bringing out the raw crabcakes considered 'creating a scene'?

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It was completely over the top, IMHO. Several other people, including designchick88 and Farns, have expanded on why bringing raw crabcakes to a customer's table is construed as making a scene. Was the chef's purpose to prove he was right? Embarrass the customer?

edited to add: on a slightly diff note...have you ever come across a restaurant that takes responsibility for food poisoning episodes? Even if they are responsible. sometimes being silent = agreeing. doesnt customer service recommend that the kitchen/management NOT accept 'blame' even though a comp may be offered to keep the customer happy.

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No, good customer service doesn't mean not accepting blame -- quite the opposite, it means expressing horror and apologies, and opening an immediate investigation. That's called crisis management, for which every business should have a plan.

See How Jack Turned Crisis into an Opportunity, an analysis of how Jack In The Box handled and snapped back from the e.Coli incident where several customers actually died from food poisoning.

[stovetop]

Wow!

That is a lot of reading; by the time I got to the end I had to go back to the beginning because I forgot what the hell we were talking about.

First I must give some bases to my presentation and I want to address both sides of the coin; the position of the owner and partner the Executive chef and the position of you the customer but necessarily you specifically and lastly the server who to me is a bit of the basis of the problem or the bad way this situation was handled.

I can only guess from what you wrote, I am guessing the "CHEF" you are taking about is not the Executive Chef /owner/partner but the cook/chef??

I did ask the waitress if there was a different recipe for the dinner than the appetizer, and of course there wasn't. She mentioned that they were probably breaking in a new chef.

Where is the Owner/Chef?

What the server does not know; " She mentioned that they were probably breaking in a new chef"

This is when the problem starts, this person does not know the menu or what is going on?? She seems to be just making something up, then running to the kitchen with her tail between her legs.

Why did not the manager/owner know right away know about this problem; I ask could there been something done better at this point??

First of all, problems should always be handled by front of house first. She should have kept the problem within the front of house, which is what management is for; a chef is the last person you want to tell about this kind of feedback.

The only time the kitchen should hear about any complaints is when they are involved other wise it should be on a need to know basis.

If a meal needs to be re-done then this is what a manager is for, the server brings the problem up with management then management brings it up with who ever is in charge of the kitchen, any other time we Chefs do not want to hear about all the bull shit out front (That is to all you servers), bring us solutions not problems.

We are in no position to deal with all the customer problems until it involves us, how can I fix something, we do not want all the details, just what has to be done.

" chef this steak needs to be cooked more"

Why do we need more crap, we have enough problems to deal with. Things can be discused at a future date when it is more appproperte, like after service, if the solution does not envolve the kitchen leave the problem with front of house management.

After our meal the owner of the restaurant (she owns it with her husband, who is the main chef), came over to see how our dinner was. I mentioned that the crab cakes were just okay, but that everything else I've had there has been great. She apologized and said that next time her husband would make them for me and I said, that's ok, I would probably just order something else.

" I would probably just order something else. "

This statement is what gets chefs all riled up, which is why it is better to disuse these issues after service with the chef then the chef talks to the cook.

I can not believe the owner would let the chef/ cook, where is her husband, go to the front of house in the manner they did, or was the Chef/owner who came out??

This is crazy! Unless it is the Owner/chef but it still does not make it right.

FaustianBargain

RR, I think everyone is missing one crucial bit of information. That being Randi's complaint that there was too much filler.

Filler in the kitchen is inferior meat instead of good crab lumpmeat. Randi was referring to breading as 'filler'.

Any chef who takes pride in his cooking will be appalled if a customer accuses of him of using inferior fish as 'filler' instead of the lump crabmeat. Randi took pains to explain this, yet everyone seems to want to ignore this very significant misunderstanding.

I wonder why

It is all about communication, to me a filler is bread crumbs, other seafood is not a filler but is other seafood, the server has to get the right communication from the customer, that is their job, these days servers are way to under trained and do not know any thing other then bringing the customer their food.

Suzy sushi

Okay... I'm in the food industry but have never worked in a restaurant. I do know a lot about food and a lot about customer service (my husband used to own a tour business, which I helped him with). To me the rules of good customer service are simple: The customer is almost always right. Even if the customer is totally in the wrong, as the business owner, restaurateur, etc., don't make a scene. That causes more trouble than it's worth because the customer will later badmouth your business to others and may place vindictive complaints with the authorities (Better Business Bureau, health department, whomever). Handle the complaint quietly -- offer to make amends, comp them the dish or the next meal, offer a refund. You'll have a satisfied -- or at least placated -- customer, and if you're still churning inside, go in the back and throw darts.

You are right; but I am still the owner, when it is my business, I choose who I want to do business with, I have said this a million times, it is all about regular customers, I am not afraid to dis a customer if I feel that they are not good for my staff and other customers and lastly my business and I do not give a shit how many assholes like themselves do not come because they told about their bad experience at my place because I have many more customers not where but- head came from, he or she can go back to the rock they crawled from.

Lastly; buddy if I ever caught you spitting in someone's food, I would kill you on the spot, that is down right contemptable.

steve

[Farns]

Lastly; buddy if I ever caught you spitting in someone's food, I would kill you on the spot, that is down right contemptable.

steve

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Where is that coming from? I don't see anything in the post you quoted that mentions spitting in food.

[stovetop]

It is there somewhere, it was slighly a back hand coment someone made, like I better not complain or they will spit in my food, please don't make me find it

steve

PS it was not from a quot but somewhere in the miles of posts, I just had to add it.

Edited March 16, 2005 by stovetop (log)

[designchick88]

You are right; but I am still the owner, when it is my business, I choose who I want to do business with, I have said this a million times, it is all about regular customers, I am not afraid to dis a customer if I feel that they are not good for my staff and other customers and lastly my business and I do not give a shit how many assholes like themselves do not come because they told about their bad experience at my place because I have many more customers not where but- head came from, he or she can go back to the rock they crawled from. 

One note on this - be careful who you label a "butthead" not worthy of dining at your establishment. It's very hard to tell sometimes from exterior appearances how well-connected a random "butthead" might be.

I had lunch a few years ago with the president of a small local bank, a client I was doing some work for. Nice place, I had been there before and been impressed. The food was great, but the service was terrible and the waitress lipped off to the bank president over some trivial issue he had (he wanted more ice in his water, I think). We saw her do the same to another customer at another table. He is an easygoing guy and laughed it off, but I was appalled and never took another client to that restaurant.

A few months later the bank president told me that the chef/owner of the restaurant we had visited came in asking for a loan the very next week. The financials presented were not terrible but not good enough for the loan officer to make an independent "yes" decision. Somehow the bank president heard about the application and told the loan officer "I'd be more inclined to give them the money if they would hire a different waitress." It was an offhand comment, but the loan officer interpreted as "deny them the loan." So he did.

Drunken idiots causing disturbances are one thing - of course no restaurant owner/manager should allow those types of customers to come back. It's a legal liability issue, they disturb other customers, etc. But just because someone is high-maintenance doesn't mean they aren't the kind of client worth having. That "butthead" might be a well-followed restaurant reviewer from the podunk paper two towns over, the guy in charge of approving your restaurant's expansion financing, or the daughter of the city's health inspector. Or just some random nutjob who will get so upset at being summarily dismissed that they will post bad reviews of your restaurant all over the Internet, thereby guaranteeing that whenever someone Googles your restaurant name, the negative experience will come up in the search and get burned into the minds of anyone thinking about patronizing your establishment.

I would never contend that any business owner doesn't have "the right to refuse service to anyone." But be careful about labeling people as "not the kind of customer we want to have." In boom times, it's easy to snub people that you might need something from when the wheel of fortune spins around the other direction. Bridges are easily burned, not-so-easily rebuilt (especially when you need a bridge to escape an oncoming hurricane) and many communities are small enough that people's memories last a long time. Just my $.02.

[stovetop]

The complaint in this case was basically your crabcakes aren't consistent. That's a management issue. If the owner had brought out the recipe, along with records showing the quantity of each ingredient consumed per day for the last few weeks, that would show that at least they understood that they had two people making the crab cakes in two different ways. The owner showed that she understood the problem by saying - oh, the other chef made the crab cakes the last time you were here. Then demonstrated that she can't communicate effectively with the chef in the kitchen, who interpreted the comment as there was something wrong with the way he made the crab cakes.

I think feedback was given when the owner explained about the two chefs. Whatever happened after that was a little bit off.

QUOTE(Randi @ Mar 9 2005, 10:25 AM)

And (I know this is silly but) I do have some concerns about what that chef might do to my food if he knows I am there. Do those things really happen? (i.e. spitting in it??)

If he does spit in your food, you should definitely stop going there. 

One note on this - be careful who you label a "butthead" not worthy of dining at your establishment. It's very hard to tell sometimes from exterior appearances how well-connected a random "butthead" might be.

That is a server calling someone a but head not a owner---big difference

As a owner it is a business decision not an emotional outburst, after 25 years you see them coming, I do not judge people by apearance but by their knowledge and behavior, and yes you can dis someone very nicely and if your good you can do it and they do not notice until they are gone.

It is like dealing with drunk people, you do not have to be heavy handed and later they come back and shoot you, ther is a way to deal with people you do not want in your establishment, I am not saying to make a fool out of them that is not good business, plus I would never call them butheads to their face.

steve

Edited March 16, 2005 by stovetop (log)

[winesonoma]

If I like your place I will tell 10 people immediately, If I don't I will tell everyone I meet until your out of business or I die. I live in a tourist town and constantly get asked where to eat. I have places that I like and places I'd never go to and those don't get mentioned, not dissed, just not mentioned. I only diss to people I know.

[stovetop]

One more thing; customers are judging business owners everyday, service is not the only thing people will judge upon, Music is the biggest complaint I hear.

“lady if you do not like the music why are you here"

Maybe it is the market they are serving, that is the basis of everything.

A restaurant is not your home; you do not get into someone’s car and complain about their music do you??

[stovetop]

If I like your place I will tell 10 people immediately, If I don't I will tell everyone I meet until your out of business or I die. I live in a tourist town and constantly get asked where to eat. I have places that I like and places I'd never go to and those don't get mentioned, not dissed, just not mentioned. I only diss to people I know. 

Exactly, but that business could be doing 5,000 bucks a day serving a different kind of customer, it is not always about you, I do do not me you specificaly, but some people you will never please and they never tip, no mater what you do, there comes a time as a owner that you just stop bending over backwards to please someone. what is the point???

That is what I am talking about.

I used to have street people who were customers, they paid there bill, they ask me if it was ok to come in today, they say it was slow, and they respected me if, I got busy, they would leave.

It is not how someone looks but how someone is.

I do not need them in my life

Street people are just people

I am the last one to judge someone( customer) based on how they look.

I have seen someone drop huge money and they looked like a bag lady.

After talking to them you realize they are not stupid.

they order their food or coffe and mind their own business.

It is people who disrupt my clients that pisses me off.

It is like my house.

We restaurant people spend more time at work then at home, so you better belive it, we choose the market we are in, and if one out of 10 people do not like something that is their problem, that is my point.

I am not talking about service or if something is not done right.

I am talking about the things you are always doing and someone complains because it is not to their liking.

You do the best to accomadate them but at some point and time they are not worth the time.

You can not be everything for everybody.

Go to Mackdonalds, they serve the same shit everyday, that is why NorthAmericans love them.

The same Tasteless bland crap everywhere

steve

[Farns]

If I like your place I will tell 10 people immediately, If I don't I will tell everyone I meet until your out of business or I die. I live in a tourist town and constantly get asked where to eat. I have places that I like and places I'd never go to and those don't get mentioned, not dissed, just not mentioned. I only diss to people I know.  

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If that is your picture in the avatar, I thoroughly enjoy the fact that you are using the word "diss".

[Farns]

One more thing; customers are judging business owners everyday, service is not the only thing people will judge upon, Music is the biggest complaint I hear.

“lady if you do not like the music why are you here"

Maybe it is the market they are serving, that is the basis of everything.

A restaurant is not your home; you do not get into someone’s car and complain about their music do you?? 

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You are not paying to be in their car. I certainly have told cabbies that their music annoys me.

I do agree though that customers need not be telling you to change the music. Once you do, the next guy says "Hey, I was enjoying that."

You know what I hate? I hate it when vegetarians and vegans complain that there are not enough choices for them acting as if you literally have to accomodate their dietary choice. You don't go to a football game and complain that no one is playing baseball.

[Farns]

We restaurant people spend more time at work then at home

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How is this even relevant?