New York's Most Over-Rated

[rich]

We always speak about restaurant "finds," but the other category is possibly more helpful. What NYC restaurants are the most over-rated based on all the same criteria you would praise a restaurant?

Since I began this topic, I'll start with my top five:

1. Peter Luger - has been living on its laurels for the last 20+ years. The people who like it now either never tried it in the 60s and 70s or have forgotten when it was the best in its category. (This doesn't include the lunch hamburger, which is still the best value in the city.)

2. Daniel - been there twice and been disappointed both times - at least it's consistent. Once ordered the frogs' legs and they were inedible - stringy, flavorless with a sauce that can only be described tumeric-colored thickened milk. And then the meal got worse from there.

3. Eleven Madison - a disappointing selection because there's really nothing wrong with the place and you want it to be better, but there's nothing that makes you want to go back either. It's very ordinary for a place that should be better and for one that garners consistently high reviews.

4. Piccola Venezia - this Queens Italian gets rave reviews and it doesn't make sense. The food is okay and the place was fine until management began reading and believing the press. At that point prices increased while quality decreased.

5. Spice Market - I don't understand the popularity of this place. It isn't comfortable, the noise level is annoying, the food misses more than it should, it's grossly overpriced and the service is lacking. Aside from that I can't find anything else wrong. It would be rated higher except some reviews express one or more of these opinions, so it shouldn't be much of a surprise.

Edited March 8, 2005 by rich (log)

[R Washburn]

I can't say I agree with your opinions on #1-3 at all. Daniel and Peter Luger are among the best restaurants in NY, IMHO.

11 Madison is thought to be, while good, not nearly as good as some of Meyer's other restaurants, so it is hard to see it as "overrated".

[vivin]

I am of a similar opinion.

Daniel is underwhelming AT BEST. Unless you have someone who personally knows the owner call ahead for you, my bet is that you will be too. The same goes for other similar restaurants. I have been to numerous restaurants like Daniel in the city - Union Sq Cafe, Gramercy Tavern, Veritas, Daniel's other restaurants, Eleven Mad etc. I would also like to add Smith and Wollensky to the list.

Jean Georges has been good to me over the years but I can't say the same for spice mkt.

Restaurants I would not mind going back to - Babbo, Jean Georges, Blue Hill, Ducasse.

[rich]

I can't say I agree with your opinions on #1-3 at all.  Daniel and Peter Luger are among the best restaurants in NY, IMHO.

11 Madison is thought to be, while good, not nearly as good as some of Meyer's other restaurants, so it is hard to see it as "overrated".

←

I can only go by my experience at Daniel. If a restaurant (especially one at their price point) disappoints me twice, I will not give it a third try. As for Luger, that's based on going there since I was a teenager in the mid 60s. Until the mid 80s, I thought it was the best, then it started to slip.

But, hey, these are just opinions - that's what makes horse racing.

Edited March 8, 2005 by rich (log)

[R Washburn]

Until the mid 80s, I thought it was the best, then it started to slip.

But, hey, these are just opinions -

Are you sure that doesn't have more to do with the overall decline in the quality of beef? Which steakhouses are doing a better job than Luger?

[rich]

Until the mid 80s, I thought it was the best, then it started to slip.

But, hey, these are just opinions -

Are you sure that doesn't have more to do with the overall decline in the quality of beef? Which steakhouses are doing a better job than Luger?

←

It's not so much a question of doing a better job, but others are equal to if not better on any given night. At one point Luger was by far the best, now they're just one of....

Sparks, Post House, MarkJoseph and even S&W can give you a better steak on a given night. Though now closed, Brooklyn neighbor Gage & Tollner was doing an equal job by 1990. But PL is still better than Ben Benson, Palm, Ruth's Chris or Gallagher's.

However, if you go to Long Island, several offer a better steak outright than the LI PL. Bryant & Cooper and Tellers just to name two.

[rich]

One thing I should add. I haven't noticed a significant decline in the quality of beef. In fact, the best steak I ever tasted (and they're still serving at that level) is offered at Bern's in Tampa, Florida. And I've been going there (at least once a year) since 1979.

[zeitoun]

I haven't been to places like Daniel, Peter Luger or 11 Madison frequently enough to claim that each is overated. I have been to each at some point in the past 3-4 years (and nowhere more than twice) and was never impressed with either one of my meals. I would not say that I was unimpressed to the point point that I would never go back. I had good meals but they were never fantastic.

So far, there are two NY restaurants that really come to mind which despite all the attention and praise they have received, have been in my eyes extremely disapointing. And I have to date no desire whatsoever to try them again, even if it was for a free:

71 Clinton Fresh food (under Jason Neroni) - Everything my guests and I sampled there was close to abominable, I thought the food was absolutely pretentious and the flavors completely off. I remember having a main course of braised beef short ribs which consisted of a mush or shred (couldn't tell) of short rib meat piled up on the center of my plate, no veggies, barely any sauce, just a huge inedible mess. Service was close to incompetent.

Cafe des Artistes (under Ari Nieminen) - I can't get over the fact that people generally are in awe when they first see the dining room. I personally found it dark, gloomy, almost kitsch even? My only meal there was profoundly uninspiring and in a nutshell I was basically given diner size portions of less than mediocre quality food and ingredients. Coming from a chef who had previously worked under David Burke, I was expecting much more effort and creativity.

[Pan]

Rich, I have to disagree with you about 11 Madison Park. I've been there three times and enjoyed the experience every time. I've found that the waitstaff makes a big effort to see that you are satisfied.

I concluded some time ago that Shun Lee Palace and Shun Lee West were way overrated but haven't been back since. Canton is another restaurant that was overrated. And at this point, Klong is probably overrated. I ordered delivery from them a couple of weeks ago, and the shrimp were old -- not too old for me to eat, but definitely too old for me to be interested in ordering anything from that restaurant again.

[adegiulio]

Rich, I totally agree with you on Luger's. Definately not the best steaks I have ever had in NYC. Add the "wine list" and crappy service, and there you have it.

Craft- a chef/onwer friend of mine agrees that, while the food was of high quality, it was WAY too overpriced for what you were getting. It's not like they have the corner on the freshest/best fish-meat-produce in the city. Why hit me over the head with such prices?? As one moderator told me, "I just don't get it". You know who you are...

[Artichoke]

Zeitoun is absolutely correct with 71 Clinton, I had one of the worst meals I have ever had in Manhattan there (the worst was at the thankfully defunct Tappo, which once occupied Hearth's space). Jason Neroni has talent, I tasted it once during a quick late night meal at the bar where I was served a delicious, slightly spicy fricasee made from crisp sweet breads and crayfish tails. Unfortunately when I returned a couple of weeks later I was faced with overly creative and tasteless food. The worst of the worst was my entree of batons of very tough, skinless duck breasts, with a clear watery broth poured over it. How someone can basterdize the glory that is duck by mercilessley stripping it of its skin is beyond me. Would you serve a skinless suckling pig, or a skinless roast chicken? A duck and its skin should never be parted.

I would also add my voice to the Luger opinion. The steak is very good, but I am not as enamored with it as others seem to be. For one thing, my preffered cut of steak is a ribeye, not a porterhouse, plus they slice the thing as soon as it comes out of the fire causing the blood to pour out onto the plate rather than remaining in the meat. I will however commend them on the thick cut broiled bacon appetizer, that is glorious. I get my steak fix with the ribeye at the Strip House, one of the best ribyes in the City in my opinion, although I am not crazy about the Strip Houses space.

I think Hearth is overated as well, although the simply grilled oyster mushroom side is currently my favorite mushroom dish in the City. The food is ok, not great and unless you enjoy sweating while eating, never eat in the smaller side room that is near the kitchen.

When Lupa first opened I was there monthly for the feather weight ricotta gnocchi in fennel sausage ragu, the bucatini all amatriciana and the braised oxtail. I stopped going after a couple of meals where the food had been grossly oversalted and the oxtail was served with hard rasins, whereas they used to be properly rehydrated and plumped blending beautifuly with the meat.

[marcus]

One thing I should add. I haven't noticed a significant decline in the quality of beef. In fact, the best steak I ever tasted (and they're still serving at that level) is offered at Bern's in Tampa, Florida. And I've been going there (at least once a year) since 1979.

←

Well we must have very different taste, as I've eaten at Bern's a number of times and never thought that there steak was in the same ball park with any number of NY steak houses, let alone, Peter Luger. Most recently I've been ordering their pompano, which is somewhat better.

[milla]

Since I began this topic, I'll start with my top five:

1. Peter Luger - has been living on its laurels for the last 20+ years. The people who like it now either never tried it in the 60s and 70s or have forgotten when it was the best in its category. (This doesn't include the lunch hamburger, which is still the best value in the city.)

Peter Luger's rocks. Name a better steakhouse (piece of meat)...

[Julles]

Thought Luger's was average, sure the steak was good, but the experience was just dull, just couldn't see what all the hype was about.

[waves2ya]

This thread has a deja vu quality to it...

Over Rated/Under Rated

[DutchMuse]

Agree with Lugar's wholeheartedly, as well as Daniel (to an extent; have enjoyed the food, thought the service is not up to what it could/should be), Eleven Madison, and Craft...those would be on my list. Have been to each of these places at least 3 times.

[Franky2Times]

Since I began this topic, I'll start with my top five:

1. Peter Luger - has been living on its laurels for the last 20+ years. The people who like it now either never tried it in the 60s and 70s or have forgotten when it was the best in its category. (This doesn't include the lunch hamburger, which is still the best value in the city.)

Peter Luger's rocks. Name a better steakhouse (piece of meat)...

←

The Post House... Best Rib Steak and Porterhouse.

[Fat Guy]

I think it's worth remembering that, for every well-regarded restaurant in the world, there are those who think it's overrated. This isn't surprising -- uniformity of opinion can rarely be found in the arts. Plenty of people thing Picasso and Hemingway are overrated too. And when it comes to restaurants the critical literature isn't all that well developed, plus you have the problems of inconsistency and fleeting taste memory.

Nonetheless, I think when you take the example of Peter Luger (Rich, you devil, you found another opportunity to say Bern's is better than Luger's!), there is some pretty compelling evidence that supports the orthodoxy. For one thing, there are the numerous accounts of the purchasing practices of Peter Luger's owners -- time and again we hear testimony supporting the simple claim that Peter Luger buys the best. For another thing, while popularity can be deceptive and there can always be a failure of consensus, Peter Luger has such strong across-the-board support from such a seemingly agenda-free and diverse group of connoisseurs that it's hard to take the detractors all that seriously. I think David Rosengarten wrote the most authoritative review of Peter Luger on record, in Gourmet, based on six visits close in time plus many more visits over the long haul. It's one of those reviews that radiates authority. I think he nailed it.

[Bux]

I think it's worth remembering that, for every well-regarded restaurant in the world, there are those who think it's overrated. This isn't surprising -- uniformity of opinion can rarely be found in the arts.  . . . .

←

I'm also suspicious of those who focus on negative aspects, especially with the need to prove they're out of step with presumably expert opinion. A lot of people, eGullet Society members included, often feel a restaurant is over rated if the food doesn't make them say "wow." The quality of some top food is not always immediately self evident. In many cases, you have to bring some history and understanding of food and cooking to appreciate the food. If I recall correctly, Jeffrey Steingarten said he had to visit Arpège, in Paris, something like seven or eight times to fully understand the food.

What I've noticed is that many people favor food that's immediately appealing, or that arrives with bold flavor, over cuisine that's more subtle. I find some popularly accessible restaurants to be over rated. The restaurants that are considered the top restaurants by those who haven't had the chance to eat at better restaurants are the ones I find over rated. Zagat's serves to confuse popularity with quality, in my opinion.

The problem with those whose opinions disgree with mine in the culinary arts, is that unlike those whose opinions on art and architecture differ from mine, I can't get away with telling them their taste is in their mouth.

[Pan]

[...]The quality of some top food is not always immediately self evident. In many cases, you have to bring some history and understanding of food and cooking to appreciate the food. If I recall correctly, Jeffrey Steingarten said he had to visit Arpège, in Paris, something like seven or eight times to fully understand the food. [...]

←

I have a problem with that, Bux. At those prices, if I go once and am not impressed, there's no way I'm going back seven more times -- unless someone pays me to do that. But though I love bold flavors, I also loved my lunch at Craft, a restaurant that's been called subtle (even overly so) by some. I notice that it's appeared on some people's "overrated" lists, and I have a hard time understanding that after the meal I had there.

[Bux]

[...]The quality of some top food is not always immediately self evident. In many cases, you have to bring some history and understanding of food and cooking to appreciate the food. If I recall correctly, Jeffrey Steingarten said he had to visit Arpège, in Paris, something like seven or eight times to fully understand the food. [...]

←

I have a problem with that, Bux. At those prices, if I go once and am not impressed, there's no way I'm going back seven more times -- unless someone pays me to do that. But though I love bold flavors, I also loved my lunch at Craft, a restaurant that's been called subtle (even overly so) by some. I notice that it's appeared on some people's "overrated" lists, and I have a hard time understanding that after the meal I had there.

←

You're not Jeffrey Steingarten, nor am I, but what is the problem you have with a chef who prepares food whose pleasures are not immediately accessible to everyone? Should no one compose music that's "difficult?" Tell me your favorite composers and I'll bet that if we go out on the street with a CD player and ask a few people to listen to recordings, we're going to get a few people to say they don't understand why anyone would listen to that shit. Lots of people don't like some kinds of music the first time they listen to it, but if they give it a chance, they find it's a source of pleasure. That some of us can't afford the time or money to learn to like some food, doesn't necessarily make a great restaurant over rated.

[Pan]

I think that music that's "difficult" usually has very strong flavors (harsh dissonances, "ugly" timbres, complex forms, etc.), if you want to use an analogy. Music that's too "subtle" (I'd say boring) to sound like anything worth a damn at my first hearing is unlikely to meet with my approval on subsequent hearings, unless the performance was at fault. By analogy, again, perhaps a restaurant that serves seemingly clashing flavors that are interesting but not fully appreciated on a first trip may be worth more trips. But one that's so subtle that it seems like nothing on a first trip? I don't know, though I get your point. But part of what we're dealing with is cost-benefit analysis and part is how much patience a person has with revisiting what was a disappointing experience for them. And no, I can't fault Steingarten, but I can say that few would be willing to do what he did on their own dime and time, and I find it pretty hard to fault them, either.

[Fat Guy]

I suppose to be overrated one must first be rated. In that regard it's worth looking at the ten favorite restaurants of Zagat survey participants:

1. Gramercy Tavern

2. Union Square Cafe

3. Daniel

4. Gotham Bar & Grill

5. Blue Water Grill

6. Peter Luger

7. Babbo

8. Bouley

9. Jean Georges

10. Nobu

To me, the most outrageous inclusion on that list is Blue Water Grill, an utterly unremarkable restaurant. Union Square Cafe at number two is also pretty silly, but at least Union Square Cafe is a very good restaurant. All the others, I can at least see the argument, even if I don't agree. So by that standard I would say Blue Water Grill and Union Square Cafe are the most overrated.

[marcus]

How about Gotham Bar and Grill? Once an interesting restaurant, but now a shadow of its former self.

[ErinB]

To me, the perfect example of an overrated restaurant is Nobu. I have never been, but it seems to me the main reason why it is always talked about and people go, is because they're likely to see a celebrity there.

For me, when I think of an overrated restaurant, most often it's a celebrity chef's restaurant. I've been to Wolfgang Puck's in LA, Bayless's in Chicago and was totally underwhelmed.

I'm going to agree with Pan and say that if I'm paying $75+ pp for a meal, I expect a very good to excellent experience.

I can't really think of any major celebrity chef's in NYC who's restaurants aren't looked at favorably. Generally Batali's restaurants are looked at well, and even in recent years Bobby Flay's have been getting positive comments as well, I think.