Reciprocating

[Robert Schonfeld]

Humorous, sure, but in the case of these people, not without a certain unfunny intent.

[jaybee]

Humorous, sure, but in the case of these people, not without a certain unfunny intent.

So what did they bring when you invited them back a second time?  

[Robert Schonfeld]

So what did they bring when you invited them back a second time?  

Funny, I think we forgot to do that.

[yvonne johnson]

Steve Plotnicki,May 02 2002,07:10 Many people would never in their right mind think of going into a place like Balducci's and plunking down the cash for top quality ingredients. Of course they like it when it is served to them in someone else's home or a restaurant...

Steve P, surely you jest?  Are things expensive in Balducci's?  Yes.  But top quality?

[ckbklady]

Whoops, sorry, Bux - I'm a bit late in the thread to respond to your questions about the routine of bill-splitting. Yes, our group of ten splits the bill based on actual cost regardless of the calibre of the venue. We have done it at Bishop's (Vancouver, $$$$$) and at Sami's (Vancouver, $$) and even at hot dog stands in Stanley Park ($). We split wine with little trouble also - we divide all bottle prices by 5 for an approximate "per glass" price and then we each announce how many glasses we owe $ for.  Our concussed accountant sorts out the rest.

I have lived in and have friends in several large North American cities and have found this experience to be the same in all places. Dear me, Bux, do I belong to the Wrong Circles?    I hope I am not giving the impression that we are obsessed with equitable spending; in fact it is such a natural and agreeable thing to us all that it is as subtle as if everyone were to toss credit cards in a heap and leave the server to divide the total by their number. We enjoy each other's company without secretly grumbling that we are being charged for it.

[researchgal]

My husband and I, and most of our friends seemed to have been raised to (or exposed to, at some point) the concept of never showing up empty-handed to someone's home.  However, here's an interesting twist on this whole thing--whenever we're throwing a party or dinner and someone asks if they can bring anything, typically I say something like "oh no, just bring your lovely selves," or, if it's a pot-luck type of thing, then I might ask them to bring something, but typically not. Now, most of the time someone would still bring some sort of token item, flowers, wine or something, but, for some people it seems like no means no...to anything.  Am I weird to be a little ticked off by that?

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Dear me, Bux, do I belong to the Wrong Circles?  "

Ckbklady-Gee that's old school. Is it still the 50's out there?

In my best imtitation of Cabrales;

1. Has it ever occured to you for any reason that you should just split the bill equally?

2. If you split the bill equally, do you think the results would be much different?

3.Did anyone ever suggest to do it differently?

(And this one is a real Cabrales specialty, a multi-parter   )

4. And if someone suggested that you do it differently, and your portion came out to more that your meal actually cost, would you feel gypped? And conversely if it came out to less would you feel like you cheated anyone?

5. What if anything do you think this custom says about your relationship with the other people?

6. If you switched to splitting up the bill in equal proportions, would you feel differently about them? Would you feel closer, more distant?

7. And finally, after all these questions, aren't you sorry you admitted to this?

Yvvone-I didn't raise Balducci's to claim that things are top quality there. I only used them as an example as better than the A & P. But in the days I used to shop at Balducci's, things were pretty much top quality. Maybe not the very top, but pretty good. But those were the days when my office was on Astor Place, and Citarella and Eli's had not yet opened on the Upper East Side. I hear the quality at Balducci's has fallen since Sutton Place Gourmet took them over. But maybe while we're at it you can enlighten us as to where you think you can get top quality downtown. This way if you and Dr. Mr. Yvonne invite me for dinner, I won't show up with one of those gauche gifts from Balducci's.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Jaybee, I have finally learned that in this life it often boils down to "You like someone because; you love them in spite of."   Friends usually fall into one or the other category.

[Bux]

In my best imtitation of Cabrales;

Why do I seem to recall that Cabrales' questions are generally a little bit less loaded in terms of value judgement.

Dear me, Bux, do I belong to the Wrong Circles?    

Seeing the big grin I should take the liberty of saying "yes."

But no, I'm willing to suggest that not only do customs vary from region to region, but that small groups may make their own etiquette which are not subject to criticism from outside. Well almost. I guaranty that if a table of five or six sat around for ten minutes deconstructing the check in any one of the four star restaurants in NYC, there'd probably be some very amused onlookers. Then again perhaps some people can divvy up a bill faster and with more finesse than others can split it down the middle on two credit cards. Whatever works for you is fine. The only problem is when members of two separate groups meet for dinner. I don't want to do the arithmetic, but if you've got an accountant who will do it for me, I'd be pleased as punch to pay for exactly what I had.

On the wine thing, since a good waiter will constantly be topping off glasses at the table, how easy is it to estimate how much each one has had?

Now that I've touched on that, the worst service anyone can offer me is to let my glass get empty after refusing to leave the bottle on the table. Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Notes on the restaurant will appear soon on the France board, and no it wasn't Michel Bras.

[Bux]

I think most people don't know how to spend money on food (I am going to start a whole thread about this later.) I think they have preconcieved notions and habits that they just can't break. Many people would never in their right mind think of going into a place like Balducci's and plunking down the cash for top quality ingredients. Of course they like it when it is served to them in someone else's home or a restaurant, but they define eating at home a different way.

I think it's a leftover (good pun no?) from the way Americans organized their lives in the 50's and 60's...

There's a strong element of truth in that. Many people manage to compartmentalize their spending and their priorities, placing different weight on the dollar spent in the market and in a restaurant. In spite of all this talk about being cheap, I also suspect there are many who use a better butcher shop when company is coming over than during the week when it's just for the family. That's really a grand old tradition along with breaking out the good plates and dishes.

I'm sure I'm as guilty as the next person in these regards. I know I'll think much harder about whether I want the 13 dollar or the 14 dollar dish than I will about the difference between the 30 and 40 dollar ones.

Not particularly addressed to Steve, but do people feel differently about someone choosing dishes that have supplements as opposed to just ordering the more expensive dishes on an a la carte menu?

[ckbklady]

OK, Steve P., I'll bite....

Firstly, it is Bux with whom you should take issue with the idea of "circles" as I was responding to the term as he used it in his post. I run in no circles unless you count the crop circles near the airport... and the only 50s here are on the damned thermometer which can't break 55 for love or money today.

Ok, thinking cap on (I knew there'd be a test):

1. No it hasn't occurred to us to split the bill equally - we do what works for us. Why change that?

2. Yes, the cost results would definitely be different - unlike us, our friends are enthusiastic drinkers and lavish wine buyers. As more than half of most of our group dinner check consists of booze, hubby and I would undoubtedly be paying for much more than the 1 glass of wine I limit myself to. I would not want our friend who is living on student loans to have to shell out anything for the dinner of our seven-figure earner, anyway.

3. No, in fact we have never discussed it - participating in this thread has made me notice that. It naturally evolved, I suppose, and everyone seems happy with the arrangement.

4. If we tried it differently and I paid significantly more than I would have otherwise (say 50% more), I might feel mildly gypped but I wouldn't fret about remedies. Would I complain about an extra $5 or $10? Of course not. If I came out ahead and felt I had underpaid, I would probably make up the difference with an addition to the tip.

5. What does this custom say about my relationship with my friends? That we like our system. That it works for us. That we all pull our own weight, I guess. Gosh, it seems odd to be defending that when the original argument in this thread was about folks who don't pull their own weight.

6. Would I feel differently about them if we were to change our routine? Absolutely not - we are friends first and foremost. I would feel neither closer to nor distant from them because the money's not the point. Friendships are not transactional. As I described in another post in this thread, friends worth keeping are more than just "non-reciprocating dinner guests" or "middle-splitting fellow restaurant patrons."

7. Admitted? This isn't Diners Anonymous    I was just offering my 2 cents (Canadian cents, so about 1.2 cents US) about a method that works for us and our friends so successfully that it eliminates thorny issues of resentment and perceived entitlement from getting in the way of spending enjoyable time together. Getting 5 couples out for dinner on the same night requires the effort of planning a lunar landing - we value our nights out. It would be a shame to go home miffed about money.

I absolutely agree with Margaret Pilgrim (well said!) - friends are either "liked because" or "loved in spite of". I would add that sometimes they're just plain liked and it is rewarding to avoid the possibility of messing that up with small matters.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Ckbklady-Excellent responses. But isn't the easiest way to solve the booze problem to have a seperate check for booze so those who boozed it up can pay for it? What does that have to do with splitting the cost of dinner?

"Gosh, it seems odd to be defending that when the original argument in this thread was about folks who don't pull their own weight.

Well that all depends on how you define pulling your weight doesn't it? I would define pulling one's weight as offering to split the check equally. And when you say this,

"so successfully that it eliminates thorny issues of resentment "

In my experience people who try and calculate a check to the level you are describing cause resentment.

Maybe everything in Vancouver is backwards?

Bux-So far despite offering to pay the extra charge caused by a supplement on numerous occassions not a single person we ever dined with accepted my offer. In fact, I stopped offering because of it. But I have to add to this that quite often I will offer to buy the wine because I see a bottle on the list that is out of everyone elses price range (either because they don't have it or they don't have a tradition of drinking good wine) and I would say that about 80% of the people accept, and the other 20% insist on paying their share no matter what it is.

[Robert Schonfeld]

isn't the easiest way to solve the booze problem to have a seperate check for booze so those who boozed it up can pay for it?

Good point. When we go out with our friends who are not wine drinkers, we always ask for the check to be split, and then for the wine to be added to our tab. Works fine.

[ckbklady]

Steve, sure, we could get a booze check and a separate food check, but we don't really need to take the calculations to that "level", as you put it (did you mean to use the word "circle"?   ). Pre-dinner drinks often end up on the dinner check, so it's six-of-one, half-dozen-of-the-other to get two checks. Double the work for our woozy math-man - why bother?

Maybe I have not explained myself clearly- our accountant pal does not give us minutely detailed and itemized invoices - there's a lot of rounding off and approximating (who knows exactly how many glasses of wine one has had with partial refills? Life's too short -total accuracy is not important here.) We don't nitpick about it.

It's a shame that in your experience you have seen resentment caused by people paying for their own meals - I would be delighted to sit down with you over a good meal and then let you pay for ALL of it, just to be EXTRA nice.    I think your experience is not the same as mine. I think you are thinking that we are micromanagers and details people who have a guy with a receipt-spitting adding machine telling us down to the farthing what we owe (hey, I wouldn't want to eat with folks like that either!) - not at all. We just have a designated adding guy who mucks about with the bill and does his best to save us the tedium of the reckoning. He's totting up dinner with friends, not doing our taxes!

Call us backward if you like, but it works for us. And that's my final answer. You're welcome to join us someday if you like - we'll be sure to divide the bill by 11 to honor our guest.

EDIT: My apologies to jaybee for drifting off topic!

[robert brown]

Excuse me for taking this stirring discussion into new territory that is applicable to dinner parties and overnight houseguests. I call the matter I bring up here “pitching in”. I have been at dinner parties at which the host or hostess is adamant against anyone helping to clear the table, let alone with the washing up. On the other hand, some like and appreciate the help, but then under these circumstances there are some people who just sit there not because they are called off, but because they are too selfish or lazy to help. The worst is the person who is an overnight guest (and that may mean three or four nights) who simply takes everything for granted by not doing his dishes after rising late after everyone has had their breakfast to going off to bed while the host and hostess are taking care of the dishes and cleaning up the dining area.

To me, inviting someone to visit your house, saving him or her the expense of a hotel and restaurants, doing for them the food shopping, cooking, serving, and cleaning up, only to have the person behave as if you are obliged to wait on him or her hand and foot usually gets my blood boiling more than just about anything upsetting that can happen at a restaurant. Of course, the two are related: One is dealing with ingrates in both cases. Does anyone then have any stories about selfish dinner guests and/or houseguests and how you might, or actually have, handle such people? Even worse, has anyone ever kicked a guest out onto the street?

[stellabella]

In my experience people who try and calculate a check to the level you are describing cause resentment.

cookbooklady-- i can see where you are coming from here, especially if one in the regular group is really poor and one is really rich --whatever these terms may mean to you, or you, or you...

but i am still more in agreement here with bux & steve--simply because i too belong to groups of regularly dining friends and we ALWAYS split the bill equally, period, regardless of who we are.  it's just what we do.  cookbooklady, i agree that your system works for you guys fine so please don't feel you need to defend it.  

but i quote steve here because he is so dang-gum right.  the one amongst us who ALWAYS makes the mewling puking noises tends to be across-the-board tight and often not only embrassingly so but OFFENSIVELY so--take the time she joined us as a weekend guest at the home of other friends and, when we bought toilet paper and laundry soap, having used a good bit of said hosts', she looked at us and sneered, Well, I thought about doing that, but then decided not to.

yes, we do have to like our friends because and in spite of.  this thread is definately a vent, and maybe some of us recognize ourselves or certain tendencies here, and if that's the case, then we can say, Gee, maybe people think I'm a BUTTHOLE when I do such-and-such--

is so then this thread may serve a concurrent edifying purpose

but cheapness and laziness among friends, in whatever context, sucks, period.  let's get it off our chests so we don't KILL them.

[Jinmyo]

It's just brain weevils. The weevils will get 'em, don't you worry. In the meantime, smile if you feel like it. Don't return their calls if you don't.

[Bux]

Gee, maybe people think I'm a BUTTHOLE when I do such-and-such--

Some of those people, are often insecure and have to prove to themselves that other people need them or want them as friends, in spite of their flaws. Sometimes they are just to high maintenance, however. On the other hand, no one's perfect and we tend to socialize with those who enrich our lives in one way or another.

[lxt]

“We have been close friends with a couple for many year…”

Jaybee – It is common to identify the basic principles of friendship as a reciprocal affection between people, a reciprocal willing of the good or well wishing between people and a shared awareness of the good will of each other.  However, friendship could be segregated into two categories: friendships of pleasure and utility, and friendships of virtue.

In friendships of pleasure and utility, the person wishes another well but does so because of self-interest, because the other person gives one pleasure or is useful. By contrast, in friendships of virtue, a person wishes another well for the other person’s sake.  Friendships of virtue are altruistic in character.

It seems that your relationship was more of a friendship of shared pleasure because pleasure is a non-negotiable quality. One does not bargain to have one's friend be more pleasant. If one is not pleasant, the friendship tends to end on its own. But as long as it exists, each is satisfied.  

Based on your description, it seems that your friends did not single you out in avoiding reciprocation.  They have chosen a certain life style that does not include an effort of hosting guests.  If, at some point, you realized that this attitude is not acceptable for you to receive a full satisfaction and achieve happiness in your relationship, it is only natural that your friendship would end.

Personally, I try to be very careful in using the word ‘friend’.  To me, a real friend is one who walks in when the rest of the world walks out, nothing else matters.

[jaybee]

lxt: Personally, I try to be very careful in using the word ‘friend’.  To me, a real friend is one who walks in when the rest of the world walks out, nothing else matters.

Very profound analysis, lxt.