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European-ized (not Americanized) Chinese Food


markk

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With all the fascinating discussions on eGullet about Chinese foods (one topic is the vast range of authentic Chinese cuisines we're now being treated to in the US; another, the understanding that Americanized Chinese food is a unique style that many Americans grew up on and remember fondly, while never trying to claim that it's authentically Chinese in any way) there's a question I've wondered about all my life that I pose now...

Having grown up in New York City's suburbs in the 1950's, I certainly understand Americanized Chinese food (and have a fondness for it, in its place). And so whenever I've traveled in Europe, in France or Italy, let's say, and seen a Chinese restaurant there in the past - they always seem to have these guilded, elaborate, "exotic" outsides, I've always been fascinated that the menus seem to list in French or Italian (or German, in Germany) those same foods we think of as Americanized Chinese food (and that are probably based originally on Cantonese cooking); Oh, you know, shrimp and lobster sauce, fried rice, sweet-and-sour pork even, but translated into French, or Italian, etc.)

I've always been extremely curious as to what the food would taste like.

But, being in places where I'd have to give up a French or Italian meal to try the Chinese food, I've never been able to bring myself to do it! I always assumed, just as you would assume if you saw a lone Chinese restaurant in the US Midwest in the 1960's, that it's not going to be a very authentic Chinese cuisine. But would it be what we call "Americanized"? There'd probably be no reason for it to be.

So then, would it be "French-ized" or "Italian-ized" - that is to say, adapted to what the cooks think the local diners in that country would would like? (And if the Chinese food were 'French-ized' - would that necessarily be a bad thing?...)

So I ask - specifically not talking about cities like London with long-standing Chinatowns, has anybody ever eaten Chinese food in France, or Italy?

Overheard at the Zabar’s prepared food counter in the 1970’s:

Woman (noticing a large bowl of cut fruit): “How much is the fruit salad?”

Counterman: “Three-ninety-eight a pound.”

Woman (incredulous, and loud): “THREE-NINETY EIGHT A POUND ????”

Counterman: “Who’s going to sit and cut fruit all day, lady… YOU?”

Newly updated: my online food photo extravaganza; cook-in/eat-out and photos from the 70's

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I've recently seen lots of chinese restaurants in Austria as well. I guess 'lots' is relative, because I'd never seen any there before (say, outside of Vienna) and the last time (2 years ago) I saw quite a few, even outside of larger cities. The restaurants were quite noticeable because they would sometimes be in a building in which you would expect to see local food.

Can not answer your question though, interesting as it is, because I was too busy searching out good Austrian food...

Anyway, when I was there I got the feeling that chinese restaurants were on the upswing in Austria, at least among younger people.

"Under the dusty almond trees, ... stalls were set up which sold banana liquor, rolls, blood puddings, chopped fried meat, meat pies, sausage, yucca breads, crullers, buns, corn breads, puff pastes, longanizas, tripes, coconut nougats, rum toddies, along with all sorts of trifles, gewgaws, trinkets, and knickknacks, and cockfights and lottery tickets."

-- Gabriel Garcia Marquez, 1962 "Big Mama's Funeral"

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I was coerced to give up two great meals in Italy to two friends who wanted to have Chinese in Rome. It was subpar to say the least. Needless to say I don't like wasting a meal opportunity to eat Chinese food outside of North America or Asia.

I was forced to eat Chinese food in Frankfurt one night. It was buffet and subpar. I was surprised that it was not terribly horrible but then the next morning, well, I paid my dues.

Edited by Gastro888 (log)
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well most of the chinese restaurants i saw in France just reheated their food in a microwave so they were poor to say the least.

But if you headed to Chinatown the standards were much higher.

Also had chinese in Italy at a family friends restaurant

that was also poor but again they weren't in a chinese area and they were catering to non-chinese clientele.

I still think the best chinese food in europe is in london.

I back up that statement by the fact that the dim sum is consisently good in london and even i have had variable dim sum in hong kong.

Edited by origamicrane (log)

"so tell me how do you bone a chicken?"

"tastes so good makes you want to slap your mamma!!"

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"Chinese in Rome. It was subpar to say the least"

"Chinese food in Frankfurt one night. It was buffet and subpar"

"Chinese in Italy at a family friends restaurant that was also poor"

"Chinese restaurant one night in a small village somewhere outside Stuttgart many years ago. Unpleasant, though it was quite popular among locals."

THANKS to everybody who has replied so far! I'm certainly not surprised by the adjectives. What I'm most curious about (unless people other than me just blot these things out) is whether it was lousy because it was adapted unwisely or badly to the local cuisine, or just poor in the way that much Americanized Chinese food can be.

Overheard at the Zabar’s prepared food counter in the 1970’s:

Woman (noticing a large bowl of cut fruit): “How much is the fruit salad?”

Counterman: “Three-ninety-eight a pound.”

Woman (incredulous, and loud): “THREE-NINETY EIGHT A POUND ????”

Counterman: “Who’s going to sit and cut fruit all day, lady… YOU?”

Newly updated: my online food photo extravaganza; cook-in/eat-out and photos from the 70's

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In our case our impression was that it was the result of using locally available foodstuffs (including canned items) as well as suiting the local taste. Both heavier and sweeter than we were used to, even compared to Americanized Chinese.

Can you pee in the ocean?

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think it was a combination of lack of ingredients and lack of real cooking skill and the fact that they modified the recipe. Whether they modified it out of the lack of ingredients or for the local palate is hard to tell.

also i think you have to seperate restaurants inside and outside of a chinatown area. As i have never had good chinese food outside of a chinatown area anywhere either.

"so tell me how do you bone a chicken?"

"tastes so good makes you want to slap your mamma!!"

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I never went to the Chinatown in Paris. So I don't know what the food is like there. The Chinese places I saw in the rest of the city were more like traiteurs, hence origami's comment about nuking the food before service. The food just didn't look appealing to me or recognizable. I also saw a few sort of Chinese restaurants that were serving dishes from other Asian countries. I did eat at a Chinese restaurant on the outskirts of the city, the portions were really small and the food was not very good at all, too oily and no flavor. I also had Korean food in Paris. It was very "Frenchified, " very mild. It was tasty and well prepared for the French palate. All of the other diners were French or European.

As for London's Chinatown. I just don't know. As friend of mine who is Chinese-Malaysian went to boarding school in England and she says that you go to a restaurant in London's Chinatwon to argue with the owner. Service is abrasive and she thinks the food is appalling. I can't say that I was appalled by it, it just looked strange to me. I recall seeing alot of buffet menus as well.

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also i think you have to seperate restaurants inside and outside of a chinatown area. As i have never had good chinese food outside of a chinatown area anywhere either.

Heh heh. Yeah, we were way outside of a Chinatown area that time in Germany. When the Chinese food smells like it contains kraut with caraway seeds (which I like in the appropriate context) then you start to worry.

My husband and I still talk about that meal as a bit of bonding experience. :smile:

Can you pee in the ocean?

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I've eaten Chinese food in Europe, but can't say for sure it's been "Europeanized." A friend who lives just outside the Chinatown in Paris (yes, there is one!) once took us to a Chinese restaurant there. I recall the food being okay, just not what I was used to from back home. But was it Frenchified? I can't tell. We also (trust us to sniff out Asian food wherever we travel) stumbled across a Cambodian-run Chinese restaurant just down the street from our hotel in Narbonne, France. There, I recall, the food was quite good.

My sister had Chinese food in Yorkshire many years ago, and the meal she described was distinctly peculiar for its substitution of English vegetables for Chinese vegetables, which weren't available at the time -- but that's going back 15 years or more. Things must be very different now.

SuzySushi

"She sells shiso by the seashore."

My eGullet Foodblog: A Tropical Christmas in the Suburbs

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I am Italian, live in NY and I am married to a Chinese...

My husband prospective is that Chinese people don't care of giving an authentic food...in Italy chinese food is pretty bad.

In Milan there is an old Chinese community, the thing is that the Chineses who emigrated to Italy come from the pourest area in China, where the food is not that sofisticated.

Our version of "chicken with broccoli" would be chicken with almonds, or chicken with pineapple, or with lemon, spring rolls, dumpling, finished!

So, in Italy, please, eat Italian!

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I haven't eaten Chinese in Europe, but did in Sydney and in NZ. The food was fine, especially in Sydney. But even in NZ, where there wasn't a true Chinatown, the food I ate was not bad at all. Of course, I have Chinese relatives in Auckland and Wellington so they knew which places were good. The Chinese restaurants we visited outside of the large cities were pretty wretched, however.

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I never went to the Chinatown in Paris. So I don't know what the food is like there. The Chinese places I saw in the rest of the city were more like traiteurs, hence origami's comment about nuking the food before service. The food just didn't look appealing to me or recognizable. I also saw a few sort of Chinese restaurants that were serving dishes from other Asian countries. I did eat at a Chinese restaurant on the outskirts of the city, the portions were really small and the food was not very good at all, too oily and no flavor. I also had Korean food in Paris. It was very "Frenchified, " very mild. It was tasty and well prepared for the French palate. All of the other diners were French or European.

As for London's Chinatown. I just don't know. As friend of mine who is Chinese-Malaysian went to boarding school in England and she says that you go to a restaurant in London's Chinatwon to argue with the owner. Service is abrasive and she thinks the food is appalling. I can't say that I was appalled by it, it just looked strange to me. I recall seeing alot of buffet menus as well.

hehe sounds like she went to Wong Kei (wonky) its famous for appalling service in fact it a tourist attraction just for that reason.

well like every chinatown there a load of restaurants that cater for non-chinese clientele and a few that just cater for chinese, hence the fact that you can usually tell a good ethnic restaurant by the fact that they have their own people eating there. But in london if you want good chinese food you usually have to pay slightly over the average and more importantly know what to order which makes it quite a challenge for an out of towner to find good chinese food.

As the son of a chinese takeaway owner and the fact that my place has been open for more then 30 years I have to say we never conciously westernised dishes. It was more like customers coming in and saying that dish was too hot, that dish was too salty, could you add cashewhuts to that dish or pineapple to that one or peas etc. Also lack of ingredients also was a determining factor I remeber growing our own beansprouts in a massive sink in the kitchen.

"so tell me how do you bone a chicken?"

"tastes so good makes you want to slap your mamma!!"

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I remember eating a horrible big fried ball-dumpling thing in London that the locals all called a "dim sum".

To Americans, dim sum is like the Chinese version of brunch, meze, or tapas. (small dishes)

I guess to Europeans, a dim sum is this big fried ball.

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I remember eating a horrible big fried ball-dumpling thing in London that the locals all called a "dim sum".

To Americans, dim sum is like the Chinese version of brunch, meze, or tapas.  (small dishes)

I guess to Europeans, a dim sum is this big fried ball.

Huh. I have several Australian cookbooks with recipes for what they call "dim sims" (spelled with an I), what the Chinese call shu mai. The Australian cookbooks basically make them by wrapping an egg roll skin around a ball of filling, then steaming or deep-frying them.

SuzySushi

"She sells shiso by the seashore."

My eGullet Foodblog: A Tropical Christmas in the Suburbs

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The Chinese food I've had in Germany (Berlin, Hamburg and points north) has ranged from lackluster to downright awful. We always order the "sharf" stuff, not because it is spicy (it is not at all) but because at least then the dish won't be cloyingly sweet. And rarely any vegetables to speak of. Also, I never had a problem with MSG until I ate at a few places there, and finally figured out where those headaches were coming from.

As for London, much better dim sum than anything I've had in NY, SF, Chicago or Philly chinatowns. So far the all time best I've had, pending some upcoming travel plans east. (You gotta do a little reasearch, but there are some great places.)

I have also heard Australia has great asian restaurants. Would make sense, given location and the frequency with which people travel back and forth. But that ain't Europe. :smile:

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I remember eating a horrible big fried ball-dumpling thing in London that the locals all called a "dim sum".

To Americans, dim sum is like the Chinese version of brunch, meze, or tapas.  (small dishes)

I guess to Europeans, a dim sum is this big fried ball.

thats why you got to know where to go and what to order :wink:

"so tell me how do you bone a chicken?"

"tastes so good makes you want to slap your mamma!!"

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Heh heh. Yeah, we were way outside of a Chinatown area that time in Germany. When the Chinese food smells like it contains kraut with caraway seeds (which I like in the appropriate context) then you start to worry.

Guess where sauerkraut came from ---------

http://www.recipes4us.co.uk/Cooking%20by%2.../Sauerkraut.htm

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I haven't had chinese in europe.. that i can recall... but I have had it in Israel... and if you ever find yourself walking by a chinese restaurant in Jerusalem... keep walking ;)

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Heh heh. Yeah, we were way outside of a Chinatown area that time in Germany. When the Chinese food smells like it contains kraut with caraway seeds (which I like in the appropriate context) then you start to worry.

Guess where sauerkraut came from ---------

http://www.recipes4us.co.uk/Cooking%20by%2.../Sauerkraut.htm

Well, then, we can certainly credit this restaurant with returning to its culinary roots. Complete with caraway seeds. I'm trying to remember some of the other salient features of the meal, but I appear to have blocked those memories in some way. Perhaps my husband will remember.

Exactly how we came to eat in this restaurant has to do with the fact the Germany was much slower than some other parts of Europe (particuarly France, where it appeared that you could probably have purchases a single piece of chewing gum with a credit card) to adopt credit cards as payment for anything but large purchases. We'd been traveling through Germany, France, and Denmark for about a month (visiting friends, scientific meeting for husband, etc.) and had driven all day from France (after a week in Chamonix) to spend the night near Stuttgart prior to our flight home. Hotels near the airport in Stuttgart were booked, and the first place we found with availability was some distance away, in a hotel that also had a Chinese restaurant. We had insufficent German funds to purchase dinner elsewhere (this was in the olden days, before widespread availability of ATMs) and so eating dinner in the hotel meant we could add the tab to our hotel bill.

In retrospect, any meal that afforded such vivid memories cannot have been all bad. :smile:

Can you pee in the ocean?

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I've eaten Chinese food in Europe, but can't say for sure it's been "Europeanized." A friend who lives just outside the Chinatown in Paris (yes, there is one!) once took us to a Chinese restaurant there. I recall the food being okay, just not what I was used to from back home. But was it Frenchified? I can't tell. We also (trust us to sniff out Asian food wherever we travel) stumbled across a Cambodian-run Chinese restaurant just down the street from our hotel in Narbonne, France. There, I recall, the food was quite good.[...]

I found the traiteurs in the 2ieme fine, but they're not restaurants. Otherwise, I would make similar points to yours. Have a look at some comments from a previous post of mine about Orleans, France:

[...]On my trip to France, my father made us eat a few times in Chinese restaurants because he's on a restrictive diet that is among other things very low-fat, and he found that when French chefs were cooperative and took out the butter and cream, they took out the taste. Unfortunately, some of the Chinese restaurants we went to in other cities were disgusting, and one made my brother and me really sick to our stomachs (it was in Tours, but I don't remember its name or exact location). The thing that the bad Chinese restaurants had in common was that they all claimed to serve at least one other Asian cuisine (e.g. Vietnamese, sometimes Thai) in addition to Chinese. But in Orleans, even the Chinese restaurant we went to was very good - so good that, if it were in New York's Chinatown, I would make it part of my rotation. I don't remember the name, but it's on the southeast corner of Place d'Arc, and you really can't miss it. We inquired and found out that the chef and ownership are Cambodian Chinese, but the restaurant does not advertize itself to passersby as serving both cuisines. Instead, it serves really fresh, well-cooked, tasty Chinese food; some dishes have Cambodian touches (one of our dishes had lemograss in it - either the shrimp or the chicken), and a few Cambodian dishes are on the menu. We had a very nice whole fish, steamed with ginger, scallions, and a brown sauce to my father's order; a very tasty shrimp dish; a chicken dish; and some plain vegetables (for my father). It was satisfying.[...]

Michael aka "Pan"

 

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I found the traiteurs in the 2ieme fine, but they're not restaurants. Otherwise, I would make similar points to yours. Have a look at some comments from a previous post of mine about Orleans, France:
[...]On my trip to France, my father made us eat a few times in Chinese restaurants because he's on a restrictive diet that is among other things very low-fat, and he found that when French chefs were cooperative and took out the butter and cream, they took out the taste. Unfortunately, some of the Chinese restaurants we went to in other cities were disgusting, and one made my brother and me really sick to our stomachs (it was in Tours, but I don't remember its name or exact location). The thing that the bad Chinese restaurants had in common was that they all claimed to serve at least one other Asian cuisine (e.g. Vietnamese, sometimes Thai) in addition to Chinese. But in Orleans, even the Chinese restaurant we went to was very good - so good that, if it were in New York's Chinatown, I would make it part of my rotation. I don't remember the name, but it's on the southeast corner of Place d'Arc, and you really can't miss it. We inquired and found out that the chef and ownership are Cambodian Chinese, but the restaurant does not advertize itself to passersby as serving both cuisines. Instead, it serves really fresh, well-cooked, tasty Chinese food; some dishes have Cambodian touches (one of our dishes had lemograss in it - either the shrimp or the chicken), and a few Cambodian dishes are on the menu. We had a very nice whole fish, steamed with ginger, scallions, and a brown sauce to my father's order; a very tasty shrimp dish; a chicken dish; and some plain vegetables (for my father). It was satisfying.[...]

Interesting! I'll have to keep an eye out if I'm passing through Orleans. There may be more Cambodian-owned Chinese restaurants than we know! The only way we learned our restaurant was owned by Cambodians was that the staff began a conversation with us about my husband's Hawaiian shirt, which naturally led to a discussion of where they came from... the reason I don't remember the food very well is, by the end of dinner, they had brought out a round of drinks for us as well as themselves... nothing like kicking back with the Cambodian owners of a Chinese restaurant in France! :biggrin:

SuzySushi

"She sells shiso by the seashore."

My eGullet Foodblog: A Tropical Christmas in the Suburbs

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Re Chinese food in UK: I remember very good Chinese food in Durham, Yorkshire, in the mid-70s. We were in an upstairs restaurant with a table by an open window. We enjoyed steamed beef with mui choy, fresh mint and chilli peppers. I've never had this before and it is now one of our family favourites. Other dishes we had were steamed fish with ginger, scallions, and black beans, and stir-fried snap peas with chicken. The day happened to be Miner's Gala in Durham. We watched and enjoyed the collier bands as they marched to the cathedral.

While down in London, we found some small Chinese restaurants on Shaftsbury that were quite good. These were small, packed with Chinese customers on community tables. I was pregnant at the time and had a craving for beansprouts just about every hour! Don't tell my Mom as she told me absolutely NO BEANSPROUTS when you are pregnant. They thin your blood and it's not good for the baby! :rolleyes:

Dejah

www.hillmanweb.com

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