Whole Foods Market

[Lesley C]

There's a rumour going around that this American store may be coming to Montreal. Are any of you Whole Foods Market shoppers, and if so, what should we expect? Natural and organic foods at their best, or just another supermarket?

[robert brown]

Lesley, just to confuse the situation, I found the Seattle market to be one of the best of its kind;i.e.an all-around, every kind of produce and interesting package goods kind of place. The one in New York is much inferior. It really is location, location, location. If you have access to good produce deliverable in a timely fashion and a willingness for the managers and management to allow frequent replenishing, it should be good. I guess you will have to wait and see.

[mamster]

I believe that when the Seattle store opened it was the largest in the Whole Foods enterprise.  It's an incredible place;  we've discussed it on PacNW, and I reviewed the cafe in the newspaper.  And I agree that the Chelsea location doesn't compare.

There's a brand-new one in Portland, OR, that I haven't made it to yet.  Jim Dixon, have you tried it?

What it comes down to, I think, besides square footage, is that it's not possible for a store to set national standards for produce quality or variety.  Mostly this is a good thing, I think--the Seattle WF has a fair amount of local produce, and a lot of stuff that arrives from California in good shape.

[SteveW]

I haven't heard any rumors of Whole Foods Market coming to Montreal, but about 10 days ago it was announced that this organic & natural food operation is coming to the upscale Yorkville section of Toronto. From the reports, it seems Whole Foods Market is focusing on the high end upscale market. The Toronto store would be the first for them, outside the United States.

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Steve

[Beachfan]

It even varies in the same area.  Woodland Hills (LA County, California) is superb, while the one in Thousand Oaks (next county over) is just average.  The salad bar, fish, meat, cheese, deli (health oriented but not just veggie) are all excellent in the larger ones in LA.

[Roger McShane]

I completely agree. All the time I was working in Seattle last year, I used to drive from Bellevue across the lake every evening to buy my produce at the Whole Foods Market. It is one of the best organic stores I have had the pleasure to shop in anywhere.

I also spend a lot of time in New Orleans. The store there is OK but nowhere near the same scale or quality as Seattle. But then again it doesn't have to be very good there to beat the competition hands down!

[stellabella]

It depends on what you want/need from a supermarket.  Because I live fifty miles from Atlanta, I couldn't shop regularly at Whole Foods even if I wanted to.  When it first opened I tried it, just like everyone else.  I have a friend who still makes the pilgrimage into Atlanta to buy food for her whole family there--she tells me she and her husband spend more than $300 at a time.

Whole Foods [Atlanta] is a "beautiful" store, with beautiful fish, meat, cheese, deli sections.  They also have their own brands of products, from food to personal care--and sometimes the Whole Foods brands are very reasonably priced.

On the other hand, Whole Foods in general is expensive.  I have no probelm with paying slightly higher prices for a slightly more inviting shopping experience--the reason why, for examply, I shop atTarget but never Wal-mart.

But Whole Foods is almost criminally expensive.  Tom's of Maine toothpaste is $3 at Target--it's $5.99 at Whole Foods.  For example.  If you really pay attention to prices, I think you notice that Whole Foods is often a rip-off.  If money is no object, as is the case with my friend who spends $300 at a time, then Whole Foods is a great place to shop.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't shop here--just saying what I've observed, and I'd rather see my dollars go further, if possible.

[Malawry]

I split my grocery shopping between a natural foods co-op (of which I am a member), my local Fresh Fields (part of the WFM chain) and an independent "mainstream product" grocery...plus, in season I shop my local farm market weekly. I use Fresh Fields primarily when I am entertaining and need a set list of produce, cheese, and other products that I know will be reliably excellent and in-stock. I prefer to buy my produce at the co-op and farm market for everyday needs, though. Those places carry more local and more organics than Fresh Fields, and I feel like they need my support more than Fresh Fields does. I don't purchase much in the way of prepared foods, and the prepared foods at the co-op are more reasonably priced but less high-test than those at FF...I buy a seasoned tofu from the co-op deli regularly but rarely visit the FF counter.

Fresh Fields/Whole Foods Market can make a whole bunch of great foods accessible to a community, and I respect what they do. Usually the people behind the HBC, bakery, cheese and fish counters are reasonably well-educated about the products they carry, but good luck finding somebody to help you buy foods for a gluten-free diet or getting a person to explain how to use this or that condiment.

It's pricey, but I spend a lot of money on food and don't mind paying for quality. Fresh Fields is definitely the most expensive place I shop regularly, which is why I try to save it for when I'm entertaining.

[mamster]

But Whole Foods is almost criminally expensive.

That's why they call it "Whole Paycheck".

I try to stick to the things that aren't stupidly priced.  Non-Asian produce items, bakery, cheese (when they're willing to cut me a non-shrinkwrapped piece, grrr), short ribs on sale.  They also carry a brand of butter that's cheaper than the regular supermarket price, not sure why.

They do have a jar of almond butter that's maybe $6 at Trader Joe's, and I believe they charge $18 for it.  No, I wouldn't drive 50 miles into Atlanta for WF, but then, I wouldn't drive 50 miles into Atlanta for a million dollars.

[Liza]

The Whole Foods on Cerillos Road in Santa Fe NM is excellent, and set our expections very high. Yes, certain brands are more expensive but the stuff you can buy in bulk yields savings. Bee pollen, organic Balsamic vinegar, herbs and spices, grains, are all on sale - whether you want a pinch or a pound. That, to me, is the real value of that store. Our local branch in NYC just doesn't come close, but every day we're in Santa Fe, we make a trip to Whole Foods!

[stellabella]

Usually the people behind the HBC, bakery, cheese and fish counters are reasonably well-educated about the products they carry

i've heard the same--very good service--again, all part of what you're paying for when you pay $5.99 for toothpaste.  i agree with you, malawry--it's a great place to go before a party .  i haven't bought cheese there but hear it's got one of the best cheese counters in Atlanta.

when one of my friends was living in olney i shopped with her at fresh fields--i loved that store.  it's similar to whole foods [same co, right?] but even nicer, i thought--maybe olney has an especially nice store.  maybe it was the nicest supermarket i've ever seen, in fact.

i remember we bought salmon and it was exquisitely fresh.

[stellabella]

I wouldn't drive 50 miles into Atlanta for a million dollars.

It really is depressing.  Some people actually feel sorry for me because I live in the country.

[Rail Paul]

The Fresh Fields in Montclair NJ has a good selection of vegetables and produce, priced competitively against the upscale Kings Market. The selection is probably 50% more expensive than the ShopRite, PathMark, etc.

It's created a difficulty of sorts for social progressives (of which Montclair has many). Good, fresh, and occasionally local produce delivered by non-union employees. It's been picketed since the day it opened. All other area supermarkets are unionized.

[Lesley C]

Thanks for all the replies.

Steve W, yes there are rumours, but there were Loblaws rumours here for years before we ever saw a store.

It sounds to me like Whole Foods works with the local grocery importers, which means in our case, the fresh produce would be just a step above the usual garbage (Montreal gets some of the worst fruit and vegetables in North America; we're the takers for all the stuff your cities reject).

We pay about $5 (Cnd $$) for Tom's toothpaste up here, which in US$$ would come to about $8. Yikes!

[SteveW]

....and they're rumours of Krispy Kreme donuts coming to province of Quebec, after the huge opening day success several months ago, of their first location outside the United States(opened just outside Toronto). The Toronto-area Krispy Kreme had the largest opening day sales of any Krispy Kreme shop in the world.

 Lesley, have you heard of any other interesting restaurant/food rumours, concerning possibly coming to Montreal?

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Steve

[Degustation]

The Whole Foods Market is opening on May 1st in Hazleton Lanes in Toronto. Elaina Asselin (formerly of Abracadabra, Ellipsis, Roxborough's) is going to be the Prepared Foods Team Leader and will oversee the hot and cold prepared foods available throughout the day. I wondered what happened to her after Roxborough's closed down.

I guess Whole Foods will be trying to compete with Pusateri's on the high-end retail gourmet food store category.

Re: Krispy Kreme. It certainly looked like quite the feeding frenzy when they televised the opening of the Mississauga store. I can't say I'm a fan - I tried them in NY and found them to be too mushy and too sweet. I guess I just like my doughnuts to be more cake-like.

[mamster]

We pay about $5 (Cnd $$) for Tom's toothpaste up here, which in US$$ would come to about $8. Yikes!

Nah, only $3 and change, but I always make that mistake too.  Our Whole Foods carries some stuff (at slightly higher prices) that I usually buy at my farmer's market, after farmer's market season is over.  Hope yours is as grounded.

[SteveW]

Degustation, what do you think of Pusateri's in all aspects(their prices, selection, quality, etc.)? Since my last visit there, they have expanded(bigger premises, more exclusive selections). Is their anything better than Pusateri's IYO?

If you plan on going to the new Toronto Whole Foods Market location soon, gives us a report on it. I'll ask my brother to check it out, as he's currently visiting Toronto for the next week or two, before leaving to return back to his current home overseas.

Not sure if it is considered interesting, but I hear that the Outback Steakhouse is coming to Montreal soon. The Toronto-area Outback Steakhouse location is apparently using Alberta beef(US locations using US Sterling Silver beef). Currently I can't think of even one US Steakhouse chain in the Montreal market. I still very much prefer the independent steakhouse restaurants, but the lack of steak chains clearly illustrates that Montreal is not a steak town(that's changing slightly in recent years). Too too much people in Montreal still prefer a lean steak & lean smoked meat!!!

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Steve

[Degustation]

Pusateri's conveniently offers a variety of gourmet items under one roof. So if you don't want to run around town but want to gather a variety of interesting and quality foodstuffs for an impromptu dinner party, then this is a good option.

However, you will pay for it - some of their items which are from other local provisioners, are marked up by at least 30%. For instance, Kristapsons cold smokes B.C. coho and I can get a lb for about $25 - Pusateri's sells maybe a few slices of Kristapsons coho for $10. Cakes and pastries are represented by most major and minor Toronto bakeries, and the fish department is managed by Mike's, a major fishmonger at the St. Lawrence Market.

I haven't done a real reconnaissance excursion in a while, since I don't really shop there. Most items that I would want I can get in smaller specialty shops (e.g., polish delis, belgian patisseries, local butchers, etc.) and at a better price. I certainly wouldn't buy my milk and bread there and I can get better cheese selections at Alex Farm.

I don't particularly like the chocolates that Pusateri's sells (Godiva and Neuhaus). I prefer to buy at local stores like the Belgian Chocolate Shop, or shops like Bernard Callebaut Chocolaterie, Simone Marie Belgian Chocolate or Swiss-Master Chocolatier. I heard that Jenn Stone who was a pastry chef at Mistura recently opened a chocolate store and I can't wait to sample her stuff - chocolates with fillings such as rosemary-infused ganache, masala chai with hints of cinnamon and saffron or white chocolate-lemon thyme....but I digress as always when chocolate is involved.

I do like looking at the interesting produce they have, if nothing more than for the novelty factor - I read somewhere that they are trying to bring in square Japanese watermelons. If you wanted to serve an unusual vegetable for dinner, you know you will find something at Pusateri's.

The service and quality is very good, but it has to be because it is a really discriminating crowd who shops there on a regular basis.

Steve - when did you last visit Pusateri's and what did you think of it? I can't think of anything comparable in Montreal - Cinq Saisons or Westmount Square market?

Maybe I'll do a comparison between Pusateri's and Whole Foods Market and report back. Anything in particular you want me to check out?

[Jim Dixon]

Mamster...I went to the opening event at the new Whole Foods here in Portland, but haven't been back. Partly because it's not covenient, but we've got a really good local chain called New Seasons that provides pretty much the same goods...altho' the cheese section at our WF looks tempting.

I also shop at several different places depending on what I'm looking for. I'm what's called in economics a 'price-taker,' which basically means I'm sort of cheap. I'll pay more for quality, and now that the Farmers Market is opening I'll be spending more there, but I hate paying too much for something that I know I can find for less.

Since I cook most of our meals from the most basic ingredients, which is definitely the best way to save money on groceries, I'll spend more for better quality meat and seafood. But even for those, I often decide on what to cook by what's on sale, and if something looks good and the price is right, I'll buy extra and freeze it.

Stellabella...living in the city may mean it's easier to find good groceries, but there are tradeoffs. I grew up in a small town, and Portland is nowhere near a big city, but I'm still torn between the amenities we have here and the quiet of the countryside.

Jim

[stellabella]

Jim, moving to the country was scary.  Where would we buy our food?  rent progressive films?  Who would our friends be?

So far we've found that we can make do with a monthly trip to the Atlanta Deklab Farmer's Market, and we cook a whole lot more, which is a GREAT thing, and we are surrounded here by people like us, tired of city living, city exiles, who like to have fun.  And then of course I get really excietd about going to visit my sister in NYC, for example, and reveling in all a city has to offer...  

But over all, this is the best life I could imagine for myself.  Maybe that would make an  interesting thread, people who live far from major cities--how they eat and what they feel they miss/gain.

[SteveW]

Degustation, thanks for your in-depth reply to my Pusateri's question. I last went to Pusateri's around 2 1/2+ years ago. At that time, I went there for my brother's wedding(he lived there for several years & the same one currently visiting Toronto). I can't remember with 100% certainty, if during that time, I managed to find the time to drop by Pusateri's. If not, I went there a month or two earlier in another trip to Toronto. In my fairly superficial check of Pusateri's on two visits there, I was impressed with their selection. I remember their very expensive balsamic vinegar selection. They had just brought in Argentine beef & US Prime grade beef, on my last visit. I didn't realize until you mention here, that portions of their stock comes from local provisioners & minor/major Toronto bakeries.

 For your future visit to the Toronto Whole Foods Market, I'm would be interested in their meats selection. Any wild game meats & the quality of their natural/organic beef. Would they consider carrying the organic/natural Niman Ranch steaks. I don't know any Canadian outlet carrying Niman Ranch products. I'm aware of several shops in Montreal carrying natural/organic beef. These beef seemed to be leaner, & the Montreal shops charge premium prices. Since what you said in a previous posting regarding Whole Foods Market, I would be interested in your opinions on their prepared foods. Also if you can compare their prices, in relation to the other Toronto stores, for same or similiar products. It seems from the postings so far, that they overcharge for many products.

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Steve

[Steve Klc]

Lesley--I find most of the responses to this thread spot on with regard to your prospects for a Whole Foods store.  There is no guarantee whether you should eagerly anticipate it or not.  At the moment I loathe Whole Foods Markets in my area--the same area Malawry is from and that she commented on.  However, I've been to other Whole Foods stores around the country--and therein lies some of the rationale behind why I currently dislike my local stores.  I have also been to a Wegman's--which is a superior supermarket on every level to the Whole Foods in my area.  I can't wait for the first Wegman's to open in our Northern Virginia area in 2003 to teach the now complacent Whole Foods a lesson.

The San Francisco Whole Foods store is amazing--there is a greater standard of awareness and expectation in that market--and that store delivers on its promise at all levels in produce, prepared foods, cheese, whatever.  Even in areas that don't depend on the bounty of locally supplied, locally grown produce. As an example, in addition to making their own breads in house--they also stock and sell numerous varieties of local artisinal breads--so the customer has an excellent choice.  They have a stone hearth and bake off pizzas to order.  Like others have mentioned, I don't mind paying high prices for superior product--as long as the product is superior.

Unfortunately, I live in the Mid-Atlantic region where Whole Foods has over 20 stores, after buying out Fresh Fields, that fall under a regional administrative umbrella yet each store is given the freedom to explore different directions with some autonomy.  That's why "team leaders" at different stores can create a different shopping experience just based on how much they care and how experienced they are.  One store could stock 5 different brands of high end coffee; across the county, with a less knowing clientele, the other Whole Foods store might just carry their house organ--Allegro coffee--which Whole Foods bought out and wholly owns. WF initially pushed their organic, socially-concious un-processed agenda down everyone's throats--to mixed success--and gradually expanded their product line to carry more standard, processed products to meet customer demand alongside the crunchy, progressive, consumer guilt and fear-inducing product lines.  Their baked goods, desserts and pastries always sucked and prepared foods were underwhelming even initially. It seems SOP to hire a local chef as consultant.

But, when Whole Foods moved into our market, they brought with them some very knowledgeable, dedicated teams from corporate, staffed the stores with knowledgeable and motivated people and made a big splash--immediately improving our market options exponentially and forcing our local supermarkets to adapt and to improve themselves.  That was good.  For years, I shopped often, and often exclusively, at two of our local stores--one in Georgetown (really Glover Park) and one in the Clarendon section of Arlington.  Many product lines were (and remain) excellent--milks and dairy, eggs, butters, waters, canned and bottled goods, healthier meats and free range chickens, in-store sushi bars, a menu of fresh squeezed juices in bulk, fairly priced flowers, etc. You can even buy agar-agar there! The DC store went downhill first--all the original people transitioned to other stores or left disillusioned, a disinterested new crop of sales and service people were hired and now they go through the motions yet have kept the high prices--much like many of the known chefs in our city.  

The Clarendon store was next--long held out to be one of the best stores in the chain--now it is just an expensive, a cash cow in an affluent yuppie neighborhood.  The standards of awareness have evolved and have been raised such that what they do is not very special anymore--as Malawry rightly notes we now have farmer's markets vying for attention--and you can't rely on WF anymore for the best of anything--certainly not prepared foods, not fish, not produce, not bread and not beer and wine.  But we all should be grateful of what Fresh Fields and Whole Foods did for our market years ago.

The main difference at the Mid-Atlantic stores seems to be a decision not to offer locally produced artisinal products from other small vendors--so we're stuck with mediocre bread for instance, baked in their commissary kitchen rather than a selection of breads from local bakers--like Firehook, the Bread Line, etc--which are superior, national class products.  hell, even Nancy Silverton's bake-off bread that she's shipping nationally is head-and-shoulders better than anything at out local WF. Instead we get Whole Foods pale imitations at the same price!  Too much mediocre stuff processed through commissaries with little thought and talent behind them.  In my experience, the sales staffs are clueless now. Our local stores have now morphed into a kind of a high-priced convenience store that retains enough of that socially-aware feel good preachy veneer to make certain consumers feel good about shoppiing there and dupe others who don't care.  To give you just a little example that I happen to have some personal involvement with:  years ago when I consulted for Chocolates El Rey I gave a presentation to team leaders of the Mid-Atlantic stores at their corporate headquarters on proper chocolate storage--basically how to handle bulk chocolate to extend shelf-life so that it doesn't deteriorate.  My biggest take-home message was not to put the chocolate near the cheese cases--that chocolate was capable of absorbing odors and to prove my point, I took a block of Valrhona that I bought at my local Whole Foods store and passed it around to taste--it reeked of blue cheese, needless to say.  To this day in most of my local stores bulk chocolate, rewrapped in flimsy cling film, rests on top of the cheese or right next to the cheese case.  

If form holds true--in Toronto and Montreal you can expect a big push initially to impress followed by cruise control.  The store chain you really want to expand into your markets is Wegmans.

[researchgal]

When Wholefoods entered the greater-Boston market they bought a chain called Bread and Circus (in addition to some other grocery stores), they continue to use the Bread and Circus name.  Prior to Wholefoods coming in, Bread and Circus was an amazing grocery store, great service (they will actually bring you to the product you're looking for, not direct you to an aisle), excellent range of products, competitive prices on many staple items.  My experience with the Wholefoods stores now is that the locations where they have taken over Bread and Circus still remain top-notch, locations where they took over a "premium" grocery store are inconsistent and the help doesn't seem as knowledgeable.

[NewYorkTexan]

I have found Whole Foods to be wildly inconsistent as a chain.  They have grown very quickly over the past few years, though both acquisitions and organic growth (no pun intended).    Even in Austin, where they are headquartered, you see stark differences between their downtown store and a newer store in the ‘burbs.  The older downtown store has a stronger emphasis on organic foods, vitamins and supplements, health foods, etc.  The newer store has more shelf spaced dedicated to gourmet items, wines, artisinal cheeses and prepared foods.  

It is a telling sign on Whole Foods future that they recently announced they are closing the downtown store and will replace it with a new 80,000 sq/ft store and an overall strategy to grow to 400 stores ( they currently have 131 stores).  

An article about their global growth plans.

Whole Foods future plans