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From Scratch vs. Semi-Homemade


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So as is often the case on eG the Pre-prepared grocery store thread took a very interesting divergence which sparked a pretty cool conversation, but since it apparently was a little bit too off-base, it needed its on thread, this is it.

Being an eG member pretty much means that you are a bit obsessed with food/cooking. Check out the dinner thread and it is easy to see the hard work many people here put into their daily meals, as well as some of the super-high quality dishes many of us are accustomed to eating. However, look around a bit more and it is also easy to see many here enjoy things not made from scratch, such as tater tots, frozen vidalia onion rings, and ramen noodles.

The question that came up in the earlier thread was why would anyone who considers themselves into food want to eat something pre-made and frozen. Does knowing how to make a perfect cassoulet disqualify you from enjoying dinty moore? Does the ability to make a perfect burger mean that whoppers are forevermore verboten? Take either side and let's bang this one out till we have an eG consensus.

He don't mix meat and dairy,

He don't eat humble pie,

So sing a miserere

And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

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First of all, as a food discussion site, I think it is our duty to address all kinds of food, from all walks of life, and this reflects my personal views on food as well. I can just as easily enjoy microwaved White Castles as I do artisanally-made Pizza from anthracite coal ovens, or as I do a meal at one of Manhattan's top restaurants, or a Gumbo made from scratch at home with premium sausages imported from Louisiana. I dont necessarily think they equate on all levels, or I derive the same levels of enjoyment from all of them, but they are all to be enjoyed, period. That's what this site is all about.

Jason Perlow

Co-Founder, The Society for Culinary Arts & Letters

offthebroiler.com - Food Blog | View my food photos on Instagram

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Frankly, Jason has pretty much said exactly what I have to say and has said it quite eloquently.

"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

 

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My perspective on this topic: I love to cook but I have other things to do too. Like many other people on eGullet I work full-time (which now seems to mean 50 hours a week, plus commuting time), I'm married, I have pets that require attention, I try to make my other family members a priority, and I try to exercise 4-5 times a week because for me, it literally keeps me from going crazy. Plus I also do a lot of charity work because giving back to my community is important to me. That work is incredibly rewarding, but it takes up a lot of my time.

As much as I would like to go all-out every night and make a great meal from scratch and take the leftovers for work the next day, by the time I have worked from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. (through lunch most days), gone to a charity meeting, gone to the gym, and come home, sometimes cookin' just ain't happenin'. We make a concerted effort to cook from-scratch meals as often as we can, but when we can't do that, eating out constantly is not a cost-effective or healthy option. And eating salad all the time gets boring (tried it, believe me). That's when we break out the frozen spanikopita.

I can see the argument of "well, it only takes a minute to come home and put together such-and-such or throw blah-blah on the stove." I can't disagree with that. Except sometimes I just don't have the energy for it. I'd rather spend 30 minutes playing with my dogs, or talking on the phone with my mom - doing something just for me, that feeds me emotionally. (I am not one of those people who can focus on cooking while I'm talking on the phone.) There are days, honestly, when figuring out what to cook and cooking it just feels like one more problem I have to solve, rather than the exciting challenge it seems to be on other days. Those are the days when I eat pre-made whatever.

Until they figure out how to lengthen the day past 24 hours (God forbid!) I only have so much time, and sometimes there are things that take priority over cooking. I love to cook when I can, and I spend most weekends cooking new recipes I've discovered. I am always interested to hear about new ingredients, new recipes, etc. But for me it's a hobby, not a way of life. Maybe that means I shouldn't be here?

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designchick... I don't think that disqualifies you at all. We all come from different walks, your food interests are just as valid as mine (stay at home mom) and Jason's (food lover entrepreneur) and Bourdain's (super high-profile perfectionist professional chef). Some of us get more attention than others, deservedly so, but the variety is what makes this site cool.

I'm in the middle too, I definitely prefer from scratch homemade, partially for ego sake, partially for health reasons and partially because on the whole it tastes better. However, reality kicks in. My kids cravings (and whinings) get noticed. I sometimes want to eat something I no way have time or skill to prepare. But, this site helps me figure those things out, slowly but surely I'm becoming a better cook. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel like relying on pre-made is evil. I'm not ever likely to be one of those folks who makes all their own bread from self ground flour or whatever. It's more about skill building, understanding and branching out for me. I made my first gumbo this week and LOVED it and will probably make it over and over. That's cool. I feel like I'm making progress.

So, I'm not sure that answers Nullos question though. It's not a black and white question for me... It's more like where you are on the spectrum.

What's wrong with peanut butter and mustard? What else is a guy supposed to do when we are out of jelly?

-Dad

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The quick and dirty answer: Yes!

Def. Semi-Homemade: a "cooking" show on Food TV hosted by Sandra Lee

Seriously though, of course not. I do eat the occasional fast food burger or the chicken fingers, but like Jason said they are usually fillers and eaten during my short lunch hour.

As for real semi-homemade stuff, like using frozen/canned items to make a quick dinner, I do that too. Favotites include canned tuna in olive oil and a variety of frozen veggies to add to quick meals. This is real Semi-homemade food. I never purchase prepared frozen items that you just have to microwave or stick in the oven.

Elie

E. Nassar
Houston, TX

My Blog
contact: enassar(AT)gmail(DOT)com

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The question that came up in the earlier thread was why would anyone who considers themselves into food want to eat something pre-made and frozen.  Does knowing how to make a perfect cassoulet disqualify you from enjoying dinty moore?  Does the ability to make a perfect burger mean that whoppers are forevermore verboten?  Take either side and let's bang this one out till we have an eG consensus.

one of my great downfalls in life is that i like nearly everything, and can see the value in most anything. this leads to great indecision when i'm at restaurants, because nearly everything looks good to me.

so the anser to your above questions, to me, is no. there's much to be said for a nasty ol mcdonalds cheesburger. or a bowl of cup noodle with enough sodium in it to melt the snow on a highway after a blizzard. or a cheesesteak, american with.

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I figure since several people have popped in I can put my views down too.

I love food, all food. Of all of the things I have eaten in my life, I have enjoyed at least 90% of it. Whether it is dinner at a fine restaurant, a meal that I spent several days preparing each step from scratch, something quick I throw together after work, fast food, dinner at TGI Friday's, or a microwave burrito, if it tastes good, it leaves me with a smile on my face.

Each meal is an opportunity to have something be sublime, I'm sure, but I'm hardly a perfectionist in anything. I love food made with the freshest ingredients, the most perfect technique, and that special kick of originality as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I also don't love a frozen dinner on occasion.

For me, if I were to obsess over eating only things that are perfect, dining would become so stressfull that I wouldn't enjoy it. I love to cook, and I find great enjoyment in talking and learning about food, but you know, I am just easy to please. So, bring it on, dinner at Per Se or chili from a can, I will feel just as pleasant after either.

He don't mix meat and dairy,

He don't eat humble pie,

So sing a miserere

And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

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I am so relieved to see this new thread. I’m a relatively new member (and only just upgraded my membership yesterday), but the incivility of the earlier thread, and of a few other recent threads, really had me questioning why I was bothering. The responses here have reassured me (somewhat).

I love all manner of fine cooking and fine dining, and spend an inordinate amount of time thinking, planning, purchasing, and preparing for meals. I love to play with new ingredients and experiment with new techniques. But, as noted above, real life intervenes. When I roll in the door after a 12-14 hour day at the office, despite my love of cooking, sometimes I just need to become one with the couch and not spend an hour (or even a half hour) at the stove, and short-cuts like frozen veggies are all I can muster at the time.

But truth be told, there are number of out-of-the-package or “semi-homemade” items that I really enjoy, too. Sometimes it’s a childhood association, or sometimes it’s just stuff that I think is fun to eat. So shoot me. Doesn’t mean I’d pass up a meal at a top restaurant for that stuff, but I don’t think it has to be an either-or proposition.

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This thread is still a support group for us frozen food afficionados. That's no fun. If I wanted to hear it's OK to like frozen foods, I'd talk to myself.

This thread seems intended to bait all the snobs out there into verbalizing the impetus behind the snipes elsewhere. So, bring it on!

Tell me why I'm inferior for liking the occasional Stouffer's product, or for having failed to stuff my own wonton skins when I want dumplings.

I welcome the opportunity to see your arsenal, and to respond. Sniping is out, justify yourselves!

Edited by cdh (log)

Christopher D. Holst aka "cdh"

Learn to brew beer with my eGCI course

Chris Holst, Attorney-at-Lunch

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I guess I don't have to announce that I am pretty much a do-it-from-scratch person. But that doesn't mean that I think you have to chain yourself to the stove. My best wisdom for really busy people, or for any people who are entering a busy period, is to cook once for several meals. Roast two chickens instead of one; grill a big steak or two instead of the amount for one meal; roast a leg of lamb instead of grilling chops. Coming home to any of these "planned overs" is coming home to a meal that is minutes from your plate. Keep a couple of packages of duck leg confit (usually comes in cryovac) in your frige, one of the world's oldest fast foods. Omelets come in all flavors, and take no time at all; use packaged egg substitute if you need to.

eGullet member #80.

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Our dinner tonight was "semi-homemade" all the way - it was one of those cupboard-is-bare nights that sends me to the canned goods. I made a salad of a can of black beans, a can of corn, a can of Ro-Tel, chopped cucumber and yellow pepper (made of leftovers from Monday's crudite platter). Dressing was juice of 1 1/2 limes, a bit of olive oil, a pinch of salt, a pinch of sugar, cumin and hot paprika. A bit high in sodium, but otherwise healthful and very tasty, and it took about 10 minutes to put together. Accompanying the salad were quesadillas made of store-bought wheat tortillas and cheddar cheese, served with bottled (Newman's Own) salsa. Took about 2 minutes each.

In the summer, I might make a similar salad of fresh field peas, fresh sweet corn, fresh tomatoes, etc. It will probably taste better. But hey, it's not summer now, and I needed something to eat tonight. If I were more organized, I'd buy dried beans and cook them myself and freeze them in small portions. I know they're better (and cheaper) than the canned ones. It's a goal, but I haven't gotten there yet.

"There is nothing like a good tomato sandwich now and then."

-Harriet M. Welsch

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It's a slippery slope, folks. Use cryovac'ed duck confit, and the next thing ya know, you are mainlining Hot Pockets and feeding the baby Koolaid.

Seems like a silly argument to me. How far into scratch do I have to go? If I take a package of corn out of the freezer, do I go to hell? Or is it ok, because I picked and packed the corn, and I know for a fact it is way better than anything I can buy in the store, frozen or "fresh"?

Do I have to make every piece of bread that I eat? Can I buy dry noodles, or do I have to go out to the chicken house and get the eggs, and grow the wheat myself?

You like frozen pizzas? Knock yourself out. I know if you invited me for dinner, I know you wouldn't put a Freschetta on the table, or Kraft mac and cheese, or Little Debbies. But if you like 'em, eat 'em.

And, as far as I am concerned, if you spend every waking minute thinking only about food, or buying food, or talking about food, or searching for the perfect Swiss chard, or knocking other folks' food choices, you are a fanatic, and I don't care for fanatics of any sort.

sparrowgrass
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I am a fanatic about food. I do spend a lot of time thinking about it, and thinking about exactly what key is gonna fit my craving slot at any particular moment.

And you know what? Sometimes that key is a McDonalds eggamuffin and a greasy hash brown, and no two ways about it. I usually make everything I eat more or less from scratch, just because, well, I do -- a lot of times it isn't fancy (in fact, a lot of times it's very much less than fancy -- can you say cold unseasoned chickened breast and sweet potato, ditto?) and sometimes it's a day-long extravaganza of grinding my own spice blends. It's all fun -- whether plotting out the "perfect" clean fitness diet, or a nine-course Indian feast.

As for apologising for my frozen vegetables -- well, melkor down in Sunny California can bite my butt. I live in Ontario, and lemme tell you, the "fresh" broccoli is looking-- and tasting-- mighty weary by the time it wends its way here from his homeland. Mebbe one day we will Live Off the Land as A. wants to do, and grow us organic greens four seasons round in cold frames like the Nearings (and no doubt become similarly offbeat in many other facets of our lives). At present, though, we're in a house in the urban core with barely enough yardspace for the dog to piss in, and it rained so much that even my piddly six heritage tomato plants got the rot and died last year. And fresh veggies are no way, no how a good enough reason for me to move to the land of the Shrub.

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No one here or on that other thread (I missed all the deleted posts :angry: ) seems to be making a basic distinction between (1) frozen and canned vegetables or beans and (2) prepared meals that are simply heated or rehydrated.

I can see no reason to disapprove of the first category, and for many people these products are superior to the fresh produce they can obtain for most of the year.

As for the second category, I'm sure there are some good products out there.

But, no offense, I disapprove of many products in this category. I know how snobbish that sounds. But I'm not saying I disapprove of anyone else eating them or liking them. I do disapprove of their existence, because as a parent I can't seem to stop the stuff from infiltrating my house. To cite two examples, I've broken down at the Costco recently and introduced my kids both to Kraft mac & cheese and instant oatmeal. They used to eat the real, and far superior versions, of these dishes, no problem. But now? We went to a party the other day, and the hostess made some beautiful real mac & cheese: nicely browned bread crumbs, nice mixes of cheeses. And the kids wouldn't touch it, because it wasn't bright orange like Kraft. That Kraft shit is truly a chemical warfare product. It is vile. And now I'm stuck with it. As for the instant oatmeal, it lacks all of the texture of real oatmeal, and is so sweet my teeth hurt when I taste it. But I fear I'll never get the kids back to the steel cut oats with real bananas. And that sucks.

Convenience is convenience. It has obvious advantages. But it isn't snobbery to point out that it often comes at the price of good taste and health.

"I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast;

but we like hot butter on our breakfast toast!"

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That Kraft shit is truly a chemical warfare product.  It is vile. 

Regardless of all my protestations to the contrary, I will have to admit that Kraft Mac and Cheese in the blue box is the best morning-after-hangover-cure, bar none. A real grease and starch panacea. I'm sure there is a "from scratch" alternative, but under those conditions, I've never looked for it. :laugh:

eGullet member #80.

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<shrug>

I cook the best that's available to me at a given time; as filtered through budget, availability, and energy level. Sometimes that's prawns in saffron, sometimes that's opening a can and pouring it over store-bought pasta.

I have two student loans, two jobs, a side freelance gig, two kids to raise, and a wife to keep happy. Sometimes I just don't have enough "processor cycles" to cook the way I want to at home.

“What is called sound economics is very often what mirrors the needs of the respectably affluent.” - John Kenneth Galbraith

 

"Not knowing the scope of your own ignorance is part of the human condition...The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re a member of the Dunning-Kruger club.” - psychologist David Dunning

 

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The line between "from scratch" and "convenience food" is blurry at best, and it doesn't help that it keeps moving.

From one of my favorite cookbooks, "The Phony Gourmet" (emphasis theirs):

Over the years, the definition of convenience foods has changed. In our great-grandmothers' time, flour, butter, sugar, and cheese (that could all be purchased in the general store) were considered CONVENIENCE FOODS, and probably the die-hard pioneers thumbed the new-agers who didn't grow their own wheat, mill their own flour, or milk their own cows.

By the time our grandmothers took over the kitchens, flour, milk, and butter were no longer considered CONVIENIENCE FOODS, but had become STAPLES. Store-bought bread was a convenience foods. Today we don't think of bread as a convenience foods, it's a STAPLE.

I consider chili that I make from ground beef, canned beans, canned tomatoes, fresh onion, prepackaged chili powder, and assorted other herbs and spices to be homemade. I know others feel differently, and that's ok.

I consider a chicken finger salad that I make with Bell and Evans frozen chicken fingers (they're tasty) over a bag of prewashed salad greens topped with preshredded cheese out of a bag to be somewhat less so, but it's awfully good. Having made chicken fingers from scratch, I can safely say that they're not any better than the frozen kind, and they're a blortload more work. So to answer the question why I'd want to eat such things? They're good.

Like many of the folks here, I like all kinds of food. I love foie gras when I can get it. I like my own cooking. I like eating dinner at friends' houses, even when it's spaghetti and sauce straight out of a jar. I like Chick-fil-A sandwiches, and I like Sno Balls. On my top ten list of things I haven't yet eaten but want to try before I die are Balmain Bugs (or Moreton Bay Bugs) and Deep Fried Twinkies.

As a friend of mine who's a former chef always says, it's all good.

Marcia.

Don't forget what happened to the man who suddenly got everything he wanted...he lived happily ever after. -- Willy Wonka

eGullet foodblog

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I guess I missed all the angry posts, but I would probably count myself more in the from scratch category. Here's why.

When we first moved to the US, my brother and I gained a lot of weight in a very short period of time. We were pretty alarmed but couldn't figure out the cause. (We'd never had a weight problem before then.) My dad simply said, avoid packaged foods and see what happens. Sure enough, we both lost all the weight we'd gained, and never had a problem since then, and apart from packaged food, we both eat pretty much anything we feel like eating, no problem. I do buy frozen vegetables, canned tuna, canned beans, dried pasta and some canned vegetables, but the ingredients need to read: "tuna, olive oil, beans, corn, wheat" and nothing else. No hydrogenated fat, no sugar, no weird stuff I can't pronounce. For me it was not so much fanaticism as pragmaticism. (I hate dieting, and I'm not so keen on gyms either.)

The weird thing is, the longer I stay away from packaged foods the weirder they taste to me when I try them again. I bought a box of cereal the other day because I wanted something with which to finish my milk. Way too much sugar, and this was a supposedly healthy brand. I will finish the box because I hate wasting food, but it just doesn't taste that good. Back to oatmeal for me, I guess. Similarly packaged pastries, supermarket breads, frozen foods all have a weird texture to me now -- kind of heavy, kind of greasy, I don't know. I just don't care for it anymore.

As for how I manage my time? I cook on the weekends, and freeze stuff. On weekdays (we both work long hours) we tend to eat more defrosted stuff, quick soups with defrosted stock, or maybe a can of tuna or octopus with olive oil, lemon and garlic, with pita bread, or a quesadilla, or an omelette, or a quick pasta sauce...Or even just a good sandwich. We try to have salads or some sort of sauteed greens (they take a few minutes, but not more.) Nothing fancy, but good and reasonably healthy.

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<Repeat everything from Jason's first post>

I love food, all food. I readily acknowledge that homemade food or fine restaurant is superior to Hot Pockets. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the taste of Hot Pockets, or pork rinds, or an Egg McMuffin, or a Twix.

I also work late at times, and I'm tired. When I am tired, yes there is a huge difference between throwing something in the microwave while changing into house clothes and boiling water, cutting up veggies, throwing pasta into a pot, and then washing everything later.

I wish my sensibilities were as refined as some people's, but...Nah, actually I don't.

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I don't understand why the from scratch people and the semi-homemade people can't coexist peaceably. I draw the line at Sandra Lee however. (To me, she doesn't represent semi-homemade but rather something unrecognizeable.)

There are no correct answers and there won't be a quiz on Monday.

I can appreciate both Stouffer's Lean Cuisine and lobster poached in butter. Maybe I'm just weird.

Soba

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I don't understand why the from scratch people and the semi-homemade people can't coexist peaceably.

I see cooking from scratch as the goal, as the ideal. Some have arrived, some haven't yet. It's all a matter of progress, isn't it? We're all cooking. Hey, that's good. At least, we're not totally dependent on heat & serve packaged foods or fast-food places. I would hope that more people would learn the joys of cooking their own meal.

On the one hand, the semi-homemade people seem to see the from scratch people as culinary snobs & elitists because they have arrived and we haven't, tsk, tsk, tsk. And on the other hand, the from scratch people seem to see the semi-homemade people as maybe quitters who sell themselves short, who make excuses for themselves, who've made mediocrity the standard. Those are my initial observations & conclusions. Mind you, appearances can be deceiving and second-guessing people's motives is a very dangerous thing to do.

When I read the phrase"Cooking from scratch is overrated," I first thought, "What a copout!" Then I realize the answer is both no & yes.

IDEALLY, cooking from scratch is NOT overrated. One shouldn't settle for mediocrity in one's culinary dreams, desires, and aspirations.

PRACTICALLY, cooking from scratch is overrated, given the realities of one's situations & choices in life AT THIS TIME. Things can change over time.

Soba, to answer your question despite my rambling, it's all a matter of understanding. We all have to understand that each of us are at different stages in our culinary journey. We should also recognize the difference between one's culinary state practically & one's culinary state ideally. Where we are now in our cooking is okay. It's a start. The real question is, where will we be in our cooking one year, two years, five years, ten years from now? It's not necessarily the practical perfection of our cooking that's important, but rather the ideal direction of our cooking.

BTW, Soba, there are correct answers and there will be a quiz (different topic, different thread), once I figure out how to create it on the Web.

Russell J. Wong aka "rjwong"

Food and I, we go way back ...

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I see cooking from scratch as the same as making your own clothes or renovating your own house or building your own furniture, a hobby, not a goal to strive for. It's all about whether you care enough about food to use up your free time making it. For most people, thats not the case and I don't look down on them just as hopefully don't look down on me for having a mechanic fix my car instead of learning how to do it myself.

Personally, my philosophy is to always try and do everything once the "right" way and then see what shortcuts are acceptable. This includes stuff like baking my own bread, making my own sausages, making stock, butchering my own meat etc. Half the time, I find that professionals can do it far better and that's okay because the goal to learn something new, not put food on the table.

When I'm in the right mood, I love the buying, chopping, blanching, smearing, roasting, simmering, straining, chilling, defatting, reducing, poritioning and freezeing that is required to make a good brown stock. But if I found these activities to be mind-numingly dull as I'm sure 90% of the population would, then it would seem bizarre to me to spend half a day in drudgery at the altar of "from scratch".

PS: I am a guy.

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Soba, to answer your question despite my rambling, it's all a matter of understanding. We all have to understand that each of us are at different stages in our culinary journey. We should also recognize the difference between one's culinary state practically & one's culinary state ideally. Where we are now in our cooking is okay. It's a start. The real question is, where will we be in our cooking one year, two years, five years, ten years from now? It's not necessarily the practical perfection of our cooking that's important, but rather the ideal direction of our cooking.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. I have many goals, but cooking every single one of my meals from scratch is not one of them.

Frankly, I don't think of cooking as a "journey" or a "state of being" or whatever. I don't focus on the "ideal direction" of my cooking. Cooking is my hobby. It's fun. I like it. I feel a great deal of satisfaction when I get to the end of a complicated or time-consuming recipe and can reap the reward of eating what I've prepared. I love cooking for friends and seeing their reactions when they eat my homemade pecan pie or Chinese potstickers. I enjoy making my own stock because it makes what I cook taste better. But I also get satisfaction out of reading a letter from a hungry child my volunteer work at the food bank helped feed, or finishing a creative project at work, or taking long walks with my husband and our dogs on Sundays. I'm not saying there aren't people on here who do aspire to "greater heights" with their cooking or feel they are on a journey. But I am not one of them.

So, I don't think this is about "stages in a journey," no offense. I think the issue is: there are obviously people on this board who have varying degrees of commitment to food and cooking. Are all of them welcome here? Or is this board for a certain stripe of "foodie" only? I certainly don't feel, as you said:

On the one hand, the semi-homemade people seem to see the from scratch people as culinary snobs & elitists because they have arrived and we haven't, tsk, tsk, tsk.

I don't feel like I've "arrived" anywhere, certainly not to a perch from which I can judge other people and their cooking. I don't see from-scratch people as snobs and elitists. I admire the commitment to cooking I see on eGullet and sometimes wish I had the time and energy to devote to cooking that way. But other than that I don't spend any time thinking about it - I have other things to think about. I don't think this is about "us vs. them." It's not anywhere near that dramatic.

The other issue for me is that, quite frankly, I don't live my life to impress other people. Don't like the way I dress, how I decorate my house, how I trained my dogs or the fact that I ran short on time and had to use premade piecrust for the pecan pie this time? Wow, that's a shame. Anyone who feels that way and has the gall to tell me about it never gets invited to my house a second time. I don't need friends or even associates who will judge me over stuff like that. I'm not on eGullet to "wow" anyone. I'm here to learn things and get ideas and read about a topic that interests me. That's all.

I think one of the most dangerous things humans do is make assumptions about other humans' motivations. My motivations aren't your motivations, and our motivations may be completely different from another person's. But hopefully there's room for all of them here.

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