"Drink Gouging" Costs Barclay Prime 4th Bell

[rlibkind]

Actually Bully Hill is quite a respected wine maker, even <gasp> for one from New York State.  Given that the terroir and climate of that latititude are probably not as ideal as other places...

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Katie, methinks your statement about terroir and climate may be a tad extreme. The ideal terroir and climate varies with the particular grape you wish to grow and vinify. The Finger Lakes can, and do, produce superlative rieslings, as philadeining notes in regard to Dr. Frank, and to which I will add Hermann Wiemer.

Land prices for well-sloped tracts along the Finger Lakes (particularly Seneca and Keuka) have been heading upward as California buyers have started stockpiling potential vineyard sites. I've yet to find a Finger Lake red I can enjoy, but there's plenty to like among the whites, from very modestly priced table whites to a number of exceptional rieslings and dessert wines.

The problem is that most American wine drinkers simply haven't given rieslings (dry and semi) and dessert wines a chance, and these are wine types in which the Finger Lakes excel.

[KatieLoeb]

Actually Bully Hill is quite a respected wine maker, even <gasp> for one from New York State.  Given that the terroir and climate of that latititude are probably not as ideal as other places...

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Katie, methinks your statement about terroir and climate may be a tad extreme. The ideal terroir and climate varies with the particular grape you wish to grow and vinify. The Finger Lakes can, and do, produce superlative rieslings, as philadeining notes in regard to Dr. Frank, and to which I will add Hermann Wiemer.

Land prices for well-sloped tracts along the Finger Lakes (particularly Seneca and Keuka) have been heading upward as California buyers have started stockpiling potential vineyard sites. I've yet to find a Finger Lake red I can enjoy, but there's plenty to like among the whites, from very modestly priced table whites to a number of exceptional rieslings and dessert wines.

The problem is that most American wine drinkers simply haven't given rieslings (dry and semi) and dessert wines a chance, and these are wine types in which the Finger Lakes excel.

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Bob:

I was by no means discounting ALL New York state wines in that statement, although I suppose I could have qualified better. Certainly the Finger Lakes wines, and the rieslings in particular as you've mentioned, are excellent. I just enjoyed some Dr. Frank riesling last weekend and it was absolutely wonderful. I suppose what I meant was that many winemakers in the Middle Atlantic states tend to try to grow varietals and make wine that isn't particularly suited to the terroir of PA or NY and the end result is often flabby or thin and weedy. It qualifies as wine because it's fermented grape juice, but that's where the similarity ends. Believe me, I've had some postively heinous examples of "wine" from various parts of PA and from the Cayuga Lake area of New York state that have tainted my opinion negatively. And it seems that with rare exceptions, (notably the Finger Lakes rieslings and wines from the North Fork of Long Island), that seems to be what passes for regional wines around here. That's what I was talking about.

[rlibkind]

I suppose what I meant was that many winemakers in the Middle Atlantic states tend to try to grow varietals and make wine that isn't particularly suited to the terroir of PA or NY and the end result is often flabby or thin and weedy.

With that statement I couldn't agree more! There is an awful lot of awful stuff out there. The first rule is to avoid anything from NYS named chardonnay or merlot. (I suppose someone out there in New York State might make an okay chard, but I haven't found it yet; then again, I'm not a chard fan, so my vote doesn't count.)

You might also want to try Standing Stone; if not up to Frank's or Wiemer's standards, still pretty good, at least on the basis of a Viennese-style Heuriger I tried there one crisp fall afternoon -- A simple, straightforward, very young white, a wine destined to be the victim of infanticide. Goes well with country pates and cold cuts.

[mrbigjas]

And you're quite right about the other mark ups no one questions.  A cup of coffee costs a restaurant pennies to make yet no one flinches when it's $3.00 on their bill.  An espresso costs about 25 cents to make and can be marked up 1200%, yet nary a complaint.  It's a matter of degrees.  The amount of time that I spend crafting a beverage program, meeting with wine purveyors, tasting different products, and doing online research to provide my staff with product information for new wines is infinitely greater than the amount of time required to call in the order for a few cans of Illy espresso pods, yet I'm criticized for being greedy if I'm to try and achieve an industry standard Cost of Goods percentage of 25-35% overall.  Doesn't seem right somehow, does it?

i just want to take a second and point out here, in case you're directing this at me, that i'm not complaining about the prices of wines in general--that's craig laban's territory to fight out with barclay prime.

rather, as someone who has only gotten into the whole wine drinking thing within the last three years or so, i'm still in the stage where i'm learning how to figure out when restaurants are charging fairly or not--considering not only the price of the wine but everything else involved. and that's why i'm asking questions.

of course living in a city where so many of the good new restaurants are BYOBs doesn't help with the learning process.

(also to me, love my goat tastes like ass, and besides it costs $7.99 a bottle retail, so i still say it was an OK example above)

[KatieLoeb]

And you're quite right about the other mark ups no one questions.  A cup of coffee costs a restaurant pennies to make yet no one flinches when it's $3.00 on their bill.  An espresso costs about 25 cents to make and can be marked up 1200%, yet nary a complaint.  It's a matter of degrees.  The amount of time that I spend crafting a beverage program, meeting with wine purveyors, tasting different products, and doing online research to provide my staff with product information for new wines is infinitely greater than the amount of time required to call in the order for a few cans of Illy espresso pods, yet I'm criticized for being greedy if I'm to try and achieve an industry standard Cost of Goods percentage of 25-35% overall.  Doesn't seem right somehow, does it?

i just want to take a second and point out here, in case you're directing this at me, that i'm not complaining about the prices of wines in general--that's craig laban's territory to fight out with barclay prime.

rather, as someone who has only gotten into the whole wine drinking thing within the last three years or so, i'm still in the stage where i'm learning how to figure out when restaurants are charging fairly or not--considering not only the price of the wine but everything else involved. and that's why i'm asking questions.

of course living in a city where so many of the good new restaurants are BYOBs doesn't help with the learning process.

(also to me, love my goat tastes like ass, and besides it costs $7.99 a bottle retail, so i still say it was an OK example above)

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My comments were a very general rant, not directed an anyone person in particular. Just pointing out that there's a reasonable amount of work that goes into having an actual Beverage Program, not just ordering any old listed thing and marking it up astronomically. Of course some places still mark up all the alcoholic beverages astronomically, as pointed out by Mr. Laban. And no one complains about the other things that are marked up even more astronomically than wines are.

I'm bitching for anyone that'll sit still long enough to listen.

[CherieV]

Personally, I am glad BP got called out for there wine list and prices. I have always felt that Starr hasn't given the attention to his beverage program (wine in general) that he should. His buyers vary from place to place and definately in knowledge. He practically has no training program and for the quality of restaurants he is putting out he needs to get on board. Maybe this review will give him a wake-up call that he can't get to the next level without a comprehensive well thought out wine list. Coming from The Four Seasons, believe me I was under the gun to make a good profit through beverage. I had been confronted many times from out of towners wondering what the deal is with our prices. Pa is more expensive usually and only is it very recently that we have had well priced alternatives in the State Store (Chairmen Selections) but that is hardly enough to count on to put together a list. We have to work with our system and it does cost more. Wine by the glass is a good way to help bev cost and so is banquets. I hope Starr now pays a little more attention to the big picture of what he is doing. That is my rant about him for now ....

[Scoats]

Katie, I can't think of any bad reviews that a place was able to turn around.But, remember Laban's review of "Venus and the Cowboy"? I think that was the name of Alison Barshak's place after she left Stripped Bass.I got the impression his review basicly put that place out of business.

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I suspect most reviews accurately reflect other diners' word of mouth. If it gets a bad rap from a reviewer then it's probably getting bad reviews from other sources too. A reviewer just has a louder voice. I don't think Craig Laban, or any reviewer, can make or break a restuarant. They can help or hurt but they won't make people hate a great restaurant or like a bad one; they can impact whether someone will make a first trip to the place and thus possibly prevent someone from making their own opinion. But if you respect someone's opinion, do you need to find out for yourself that it's not great? If a restaurant is doing a decent job, it should get a decent review from him or any other impartial reviewer. If it gets a bad review, it's probably a bad restaurant and disappointing more customers than just the reviewer. And if the reviewer is in the minority in liking or hating a place, then other voices will balance them out.

Restaurants probably don't turn around after bad reviews because most are underfunded and cashflow is precarious when they open and don't have the resources for to stay afloat until they can turn the thing around (or the ability to turn it around). Maybe another question is how many bad restaurants turn around and become great ones?

[CherieV]

Trust is another restaurant that got a horrific review and struggled until it closed. Then of course Starr put El Vez there ASAP.

[KatieLoeb]

Hi Cherie!!! Welcome to eGullet! Glad you've decided to come join us and play...

For everyone, Cherie is another one of the "wine chicks" here in Philadelphia. She and I know each other as she used to be one of the salespeople that called on me when I was still back at Striped Bass. She has an impeccable palate and will hopefully be adding to our wine discussions and commentary on restaurants.

Everyone say:

[singsong voice] "Hi Cherie!!" [/singsong voice]

[mrbigjas]

welcome cherie! i think i met you once, when i was somewhere with katie.

[sabg]

i know v v little about wine but have an opinion about everything ...i remember reading an article quite awhile back about the different cost of the same wine a a variety of restaurnats in in nyc. they said harry's at hanover (one of my local places at the time) continued to have some of the best prices in the . they accounted for some of this because of the long time relationships they had with the distributors and the vineyards. its v hard if not impossible for the diner to know what goes into the cost of what they are eating and drinking. i frequently would love a "supplement' or an extra course but at the time can't afford it. i dont try to figure out the mark up. i eat and drink what i can afford when i am out and if something looks good but not in my range, i go the wine store orgrocery and enjoy it at home.

[CherieV]

Hi Cherie!!!  Welcome to eGullet!  Glad you've decided to come join us and play...

For everyone, Cherie is another one of the "wine chicks" here in Philadelphia.  She and I know each other as she used to be one of the salespeople that called on me when I was still back at Striped Bass.  She has an impeccable palate and will hopefully be adding to our wine discussions and commentary on restaurants.

Everyone say:

[singsong voice] "Hi Cherie!!" [/singsong voice]

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Well, thank you so much for the warm welcome Katie!!! I read this board often and really look foward to adding my 2 cents Oh, I already have....

[MarketStEl]

My comments were a very general rant, not directed an anyone person in particular.    Just pointing out that there's a reasonable amount of work that goes into having an actual Beverage Program, not just ordering any old listed thing and marking it up astronomically.  Of course some places still mark up all the alcoholic beverages astronomically, as pointed out by Mr. Laban.  And no one complains about the other things that are marked up even more astronomically than wines are.

I'm bitching for anyone that'll sit still long enough to listen. 

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Okay, remind me to order a dozen cups of double espresso when I stop by. That way, not only will you have gotten the dollar amount you probably would have earned on the bottle of wine I didn't order, you will have to put me in a straitjacket to carry me out of the place, I'll be buzzed that much.

On the side topic: If you spent decades trying to promote (what you saw as) your family's good name and history, only to have some corporate behemoth strip it all away from you, wouldn't you be a bit psycho too? (A moment of sympathy as well, please, for that brewery in Ceske Budovice, Czech Republic.) I'm surprised the ordeal didn't "get his goat"!