Braising seminar discussion

[hhawk]

a few th0ings.. re: my extra credit work..

1) 20 lbs of Short Ribs yielded 15 pieces

2) I braised for about two hours @350 (F)

We ran the special today and sold out by 11pm...

Everyone thought it was yummy :)

[patti]

Steven, will it be a no-no to have one pot that is larger than the others? My only piece of Le Creuset is 7.25 quarts, while the non-stick Calphalon saucier and the Magnalite dutch oven are 5 quarts, and the Corning Ware is 5 liter (I also have 3 liter, if that would be better).

Also (and this one might belong in the stupid questions thread in the other forums) I made stock per the eGCI instructions, but I'm not sure about the proper amount to use. I started off in a 22 quart pot with 11 pounds of chicken and bones (later transferred to a 16 quart pot), and after the reduction, ended up with 4 quarts of stock. In what proportion should I use it?

[Fat Guy]

Variations in pot size are inevitable, which is why I've recommended that everybody add braising liquid to a specified depth rather than in an absolute amount. Anyway, even if we had pots that were the same in volume, what are the odds that they'd have the same diameter and height? I think the Le Creuset pot I have here is 7.5 quarts whereas the Calphalon ones are maybe 6 quarts -- at some point I'll measure. It's a variable, yes, but I hope the aggregated data from a bunch of people doing these experiments will reveal if it's a relevant one.

In terms of your stock, it's hard to tell without tasting it, but as a rule of thumb for braising liquid I'd probably estimate 1 pound of chicken/beef/whatever parts to 1 quart of stock as an end product -- that's not going to be a very powerful stock, but while you braise there will be some additional reduction (even though the pot is covered, there will be some moisture loss), the items that you're braising will also be contributing flavor to the liquid and, in the end, you may reduce the braising liquid further into a sauce. So you could probably go 3:1 in terms of using water to reconstitute that stock, or 2:1 if you want a richer liquid.

[slkinsey]

Steven, forgive me if this question is already planned for the future or explained...  As I understand it, for Lab 1 all the various braising vessels go into the oven?  I'm asking because, as you know, one may also braise on the stovetop and what may result a "no difference" comparison in the oven might result in a "huge difference" comparison on the stove top.

For Lab 1, yes, all go in the oven. This is a vessel comparison, not a heating method comparison. In a later lab, we will do a heating method comparison between oven and stovetop.

Right. But the vessel comparison in Lab 1 is only valid with respect to oven braising, yes? Because if Lab 1 shows that a certain vessel works best in the oven (or if, as I suspect, it shows that there are no meaningful differences between vessels used for oven braising), that doesn't mean that a different vessel won't prove to be best on top of the stove. Maybe you're planning on doing another vessel comparison on top of the stove, though.

[Fat Guy]

Starting with a very long wish-list, we had to cut literally hundreds of potentially interesting experiments so that we could reduce the universe of experiments to a total of five. So, there's no plan to do a stovetop comparison of vessel performance as part of the basic coursework. But if someone would like to do it for "extra credit" then I would happily award . . . extra credit!

[Fat Guy]

Some quick comments as I prepare to start the Lab 1 braising experiments here:

- Take lots of photos! I know we're only looking at pieces of meat, and that they're all going to look pretty similar, but let's get photos online so we can all see each other's braising vessels, the different types of meat (raw, in progress and cooked), ovens, and even kitchens if you're up for posting a photo of your personal "lab." Photos can really make the discussion come alive. Don't be shy. Show all. No nudity, please.

- No observation is too small to document. Keep a notebook computer or a real notebook near the stove (not too near, though!) and note everything you notice. Eventually, it would be great to have observations like these (of course I have put in hypothetical, nonsensical results -- these are just some of the types of observations you could note for each vessel and sample):

Sample 1/ Vessel 1

- Raw weight of meat 498 lbs

- Noticed that there was a small Klingon living in the Le Creuset pot

- Dropped the Le Creuset lid on my foot and broke 4 of 5 toes

- Temperature of raw meat 98 degrees below zero

- Used a chain latte as my braising liquid

- Oven preheated to 800 degrees F

- Braising liquid came to a simmer at 17 minutes

- Meat internal temperature at 30 minutes = 800 degrees F

- Meat internal temperature at 1 hour = 800 degrees F

- Meat internal temperature at 1 hour 30 minutes = still 800 degrees F

- Meat internal temperature at 2 hours = no change from 800 degrees F

- Meat fork-tender at 2 hours, removed to let cool for 15 minutes

- Tasting notes: seemed a little burnt

Sample 2/ Vessel 2

- Raw weight of meat 503 lbs

etc. . .

- Please get your notes written up and your photos uploaded to ImageGullet throughout the day, and hold them on your computers in a word processing file or whatever works for you. Tonight we will open a topic for Lab 1 notes, at which point we can start posting and discussing our results.

- Please remember the cardinal rule of the seminar. To repeat: All are free to read along, but only those who actually do the lab work may participate in a discussion on a given day.

- Finally, I'm thrilled that we seem to have a good number of people who are going to participate. I'm really looking forward to doing this with you all.

[Fat Guy]

Okay, I now have everything in the oven, and I wanted to note something that presented a challenge for me: I didn't create a plan of attack for the oven in advance, and that became troublesome when it came time to arrange a bunch of hot vessels in a hot oven.

So, while your oven is still cold, I suggest you adjust your oven grates and arrange the empty vessels with their lids on in the oven the way you're planning to do the braising -- because you may find that you don't actually have the height you need, or that a pot handle is occupying the space where you planned to put another pot. This is much easier to do with cold pots in a cold oven than it is to do with hot pots in a hot oven.

[Rachel Perlow]

Okay, I now have everything in the oven, and I wanted to note something that presented a challenge for me: I didn't create a plan of attack for the oven in advance, and that became troublesome when it came time to arrange a bunch of hot vessels in a hot oven.

So, while your oven is still cold, I suggest you adjust your oven grates and arrange the empty vessels with their lids on in the oven the way you're planning to do the braising -- because you may find that you don't actually have the height you need, or that a pot handle is occupying the space where you planned to put another pot. This is much easier to do with cold pots in a cold oven than it is to do with hot pots in a hot oven.

←

I thought of this the other day, but didn't think to post about it because it seemed so obvious. This is more of a comment about Fat Guy's comment about notes, "no observation is too small to document." If I had thought to post this recommendation on Saturday, poor Steven wouldn't have been juggling hot pots.

[Fat Guy]

Never underestimate my ability to overlook the obvious!

[hhawk]

I did this yesterday..

I needed up w/ two foil pans one single pan and two pans doubled together. Very interesting results which I'll post when we are told too... I had to keep on removing them from the oven so that I could get the instant read to read the right temp (and not the temp of the oven..)

Oh, and the results were tasty. I used red wine instead of the beer I was planning and some salt and pepper..

[Smithy]

Ha! I had the foresight to arrange pans in the oven and get the racks adjusted before starting the experiment. I did NOT have the foresight to realize that the position in the oven (top rack/bottom rack) would be another variable. With both racks fully occupied (I had a couple of extra-credit pots in there too) I wasn't able to maintain a nice simmer everywhere at once. I got some interesting results anyway, but not as well controlled as I'd have liked.

If anyone else hasn't thought of this in advance, make a plan for how you'll juggle pans around in your oven, if you can, to keep the heat more or less even. Fat Guy, have I busted my first lab, or shall I post anyway? I won't be able to repeat the full load tonight, and don't know at what point I'd be able to report on the one or two pots I might manage.

[Fat Guy]

I had some similar issues, and one particular result I can't really explain, and no it's not a bust! The reason we have several people doing this is so that when we look at all the data together we can get iron out some of the bumps. Looking forward to your report tonight.

[Safran]

Containers for all these things:

I used 4in by 3½ in bistro glasses. They were great for the liquid - I can then measure how much fat tops each quantity of liquid. Covered ea glass with Glad Press'n Seal (finally have use for the stuff...). Did the same for the pieces of meat. Each glass is labelled with a different color post-it that corresponds to the pot it was cooked in.

[jwwai]

For Lab #2, does the initial browning of the short ribs involve both oil and stock, or the oil only?

BTW, I had to gorge myself on V-Day chocolates to avoid devouring my entire lab experiment from yesterday.

[Fat Guy]

Brown the meat in oil only. Then add the braising liquid when it's time for the vessel to go into the oven. If you brown in a vessel other than the one in which you're going to braise, be sure to use a little of the braising liquid (after browning and transferring the meat to the braising vessel) to deglaze the pan and transfer it over with the little brown bits and juices to the braising vessel, then top off with the rest of your braising liquid. Does that make sense?

[Smithy]

As I read your instructions for the second lab, you're saying to reheat everything from Lab 1 but only taste one sample (for instance, the one from the Corning but not from any of the other pots). Is that right?

[Fat Guy]

That's right. The idea here is to taste meat after 1 reheating, 2 reheatings and 3 reheatings (multiple coolings and reheatings are traditional for some classic braised dishes). Although the samples are not uniform (I was hoping they would be), they are close enough and the reheating may even things out a bit more, such that this set of tests should at least give some idea of the texture and flavor progression. You could also re-refrigerate and re-reheat additional samples if the pieces are still reasonably intact after tasting. It's up to you.

[Bartow]

Steven- Re #2

Two questions:

1. For the braising liquid testing, I have 4 ceramic onion soup pots w/lids, each of which would hold only 1 shortrib. Thier advantage is that they are absolutely uniform in size. Otherwise I can go with loaf pans.

2. My shortribs from #1 rendered a lot of fat during the braising. Can I remove it before proceeding to reheat the samples, or should I leave them greasy?

[Fat Guy]

I should have been more clear about that: definitely remove the congealed fat.

I think the mini-crocks sound great for this experiment.

[ChefDanBrown]

Can you let me know what equipment we'll be needing for tomorrow? I feel like I could have been better prepared, and I would've purchased some loaf pans yesterday for today's experiment, but I didn't know beforehand. I still participated, and I'll be posting my results as soon as batch #2 comes out of the oven.

[Fat Guy]

There are pros and cons to doing this as an interactive seminar. I could have done all the experiments last week and been better prepared than the rest of the group, and that would have improved logistics and made things more convenient, but then it wouldn't have been a true seminar -- it would have been more like a high-school science class where the teacher already knows how every experiment is going to come out. As I mentioned in the earlier literature, this is the first time I'm doing each of these experiments, so the results of each experiment are going to affect the logistics of the next. That makes it hard for me to post the next day's instructions until we get back some of the early results from the previous lab. For example, when it turned out after Lab #1 that different vessels could make a big difference, I had to recompute Lab #2 to eliminate that variable. I'll try to post the Lab #3 instructions in a couple of hours, but there are some things I'm still trying to resolve. I think, however, that tomorrow will require less equipment than the previous two days.

[snowangel]

I'm really sorry I haven't participated so far, but I've been sick enough that I haven't felt like doing any cooking.

But, I'm feeling better and still planning to do the three kinds of chicken in a side-by-side. I'm not sure if this is a question or if I am just thinking out-loud, but I had intended to do this as a coq au vin, but I'm wondering, since I really want also to taste the differences between the three kinds of chicken if I'm not better off using stock?

And, at some point in the very near future, I would like to try these lab experiements with poultry, since no one's tried that. Should I do this let's say next week or the week later, is it OK for me to post the results on the appropriate lab discussion threads? I'm really curious if different vessels will make as much of a difference with poultry.

[Fat Guy]

I do think stock allows for a clearer flavor -- most everybody this far has found wine to be pretty strong stuff. And yes, please do post your results whenever they're ready. These topics will stay alive indefinitely. I look forward to your results with poultry!

[Boris_A]

Just a remark about wine (if used again).

I saw Cabernet and Merlot in the seminar discussions. I'd recommend lighter stuff. I'm normally using local Pinot Noir (rather light, similar to Burgundy village wine or Beaujolais) and lighter Cote-du-Rhone. Maybe one wants you try an US counterpart to not so much extracted Cote-du-Rhone.

Edited February 16, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[Fat Guy]

I used Beaujolais Nouveau, for what it's worth.