Braising seminar discussion

[Fat Guy]

How much stock will I need to complete the whole seminar?

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It really depends on the size of the vessels you're planning to use, but measuring with the vessels I'm using, on average it takes about 1/2 a quart (aka a pint) to do each experiment, with each lab consisting of 4-5 experiments. Not ever experiment, however, will use stock -- a couple will use water or wine. There is also one experiment where you will use more stock than in any other (fully or almost-fully submerged braising). I've got 8 quarts ready to go but I don't expect to use them all. You can also extend your stock -- if you get to day 4 and you have 1 quart of stock but you need 2, you can just cut it in half with water or wine, or if you run out you can do all the day 4 experiments with wine.

[Fat Guy]

I think I read Lab #1 carefully.  But, in case I didn't, is the choice of vessel up to us?

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Yes and no. The idea with Lab #1 (those of you who haven't seen the instructions yet, please click here) is not for you to use vessel singular, but rather to use vessels plural, so as to be able to compare the results of braising the same item in different vessels. Why are we doing that? Well, if you've spent three minutes reading the eG Forums or you've ever shopped for a pot at Williams-Sonoma, Sur La Table or pretty much any store where they have sales help, you've no doubt been subjected to a barrage of opinion about why this Le Creuset or that All-Clad pan will, for just $200, make your braises taste so much better. We're going to find out, among other things, whether that's true. Not only are we going to find out if different pots make a braise taste better, but also we're going to find out if they make it different at all, and if so how. So, to answer your question, the choice of vessels is up to you, based on what you have or can borrow, but the idea here is to try to use four different vessels and cook one piece of meat (each piece being the same as the others) in each, in order to compare results.

So for marking meat, any suggestions?  I'm going to do three types of chicken.  Use different colors of embroidery floss (cotton) to mark via ties?

Continuing with the comments in the previous passage, a three-types-of-chicken experiment (if by that you mean three different chicken recipes or three different species of bird) would not be a Lab #1 experiment, because Lab #1 is same-item/different-vessels. I would encourage you to do a three-types-of-chicken experiment whenever you like, and to share your results with us, but the day to share those results would be Friday, in the open discussion. The discussion on each of the lab days (Monday-Thursday, Labs 1-4) is more narrowly tailored to the exact experiments set forth in the lab assignments. How does this affect marking? Well, if you've got four different vessels you don't need to mark anything during cooking because the samples are (we hope) not going to get up on their own and transfer themselves from pot to pot. What you will need to do is mark the pieces after cooking, which is much easier because you don't need super-heat-proof marking technology. For me, I plan to take each sample out of its braising vessel and line them up on a platter with a Post-It note in front of each saying, for example, "From Le Creuset pot." When I store them in the refrigerator, I'll put them in sandwich-sized Zip-Loc bags, on which I'll write the same thing. Later in the week we may have some need to mark pieces while they actually cook. I haven't decided what I'll do for that, so suggestions are welcome.

Finally, just cleaned out the deep freeze and found a major stash of stock (how can one lose stock?).  I stock still viable after 8 months at the very bottom of a deep freezer which is very cold and tight enough that is has almost no frost?  It is in glass canning jars.

I personally would not hesitate to use it, and have used longer-frozen stock than that on many occasions. I'm probably defying some conservative food-safety estimates by doing so, but I do that every time I eat a rare steak.

[Fat Guy]

So lab no. 1 is to get the materials together, make your stock, etc.?

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Have a look at the Lab number 1 instructions, which are separate from the course introduction.

[Fat Guy]

As I understood #1, we're trying to search the differences between braising qualities of all 4 vessels.

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Exactly so.

Maybe different coloured pins to mark the pieces in a vessel? Other possibilities?

As mentioned above, because we're concerned with vessels not pieces, all you need to do is keep track of each vessel during cooking, and label the pieces afterwards.

What's a recommended minimal size for beef pieces (me: shanks)? How much beef I'm going to need for all 4 lab series?

I would say the minimum size is about the size of a short rib, so a shank will be plenty big. The important thing is that you try to get shanks that are similar to each other, so they won't become too much of a variable. We want the meat (and the liquid, temperature, etc.) to stay constant, and we want the variable to be the cooking vessel. In terms of total number of pieces, 20 will do the trick. We may only use 19 -- some decisions in later labs will depend on results from earlier ones.

[Boris_A]

I would say the minimum size is about the size of a short rib, so a shank will be plenty big.

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Short rib of beef is a very unusual cut here. Actually, I've never seen one from close (but I'm going to try once in the future). What's the size of a single "cubes" inchwise? I'd like to cut the shanks accordingly.

Further I'm thinking of browning all pieces at once in large saute pan and to distribute them evenly to the vessels, not forgetting the bits and pieces and some diluting liquidity as suggested. Wrt. browning, a comparison between an alufoil vessel and an iron cast vessel is impossible anyway. Comments?

[Fat Guy]

Raw, a nice meaty short rib might run 3.5" x 1/5" x 1.5" -- though most are not even that big.

In terms of browning, the way you're describing it would be one variant on the experiment. It isolates the actual simmering from the browning process. But while planning the labs, I opted for browning in each vessel that allows for browning. I think it's best for the comparison to be realistic. So, for example, if the Le Creuset Dutch oven somehow browns meat in some unique way, and if that carries through to the finished product by making it taste better, that's something worth knowing. As with any of these multi-variable tests, every variable introduces uncertainty unless you pursue it individually in a geometrically expanding number of different tests, but overall my preference is:

- Brown your meat for your Le Creuset (or equivalent) in that vessel.

- Brown your meat for your non-enameled metal Dutch oven in that vessel.

- Brown your meat for your non-stovetop-safe vessels in a skillet, making sure to deglaze and transfer the browned bits from the skillet to the cooking vessel.

[Shalmanese]

I would strongly suggest that at least for tute 1, to use 1 full serving portion worth of meat and not something as small as a single short rib. Cooking vessels display markedly different behaviours depending on how much stuff is in them.

Smaller amounts of food leads to there not being as much thermal mass which can introduce larger fluctuations in temperature. Similarly, evaporation rates, temperature differentials between the covered and uncovered pot sides and cooking times may all be affected.

[Fat Guy]

We're going to face this issue repeatedly in several contexts. If we all had infinite time, money, space and equipment, I would say "yes!" to a suggestion like "cook a full batch." But we are making compromises here in order to keep the overall scale of the course manageable. Those compromises are based on a number of suppositions I have made, in consultation with the eGCI team, about the acceptable range of variation.

In this case, yes, a single small piece of meat will not likely cook the same as a full batch. However, we will be cooking the same quantity of meat in every vessel. Since we are studying variation among vessels, this should provide us a good relative comparison.

The other issue we run up against, if we start working with full batches, is what is a batch? Should the batch be measured absolutely (10 ribs per pot) or relatively (cover 50% of the bottom of each pot)? The variables never stop coming, and in theory we would want to try it both ways.

Certainly, though. if you have extra meat, you should feel free to cook two, four or six short ribs in each of your vessels. I will be cooking two in each. What I would like you to avoid, however, is packing any vessel very tight. If you make multiple pieces of meat, please make sure there is at least an inch of space between each and at least an inch between the wall of the pot and any given piece.

[Shalmanese]

In the other seminars, not so much, I'm just suggesting for the pot experiment to cook an entire batch where batch can have quite a flexible meaning.

The problem is that the difference between a Le Crueset and tin foil with a full batch might be less than the difference between full tin foil and a single short rib. If this is the case, then your comparisons become worthless.

I'm certainly not advocating 5 full braised meals though.

[hhawk]

The instructions are very clear in the overview and on a conceptual level but i'm still confused on the precise methods, etc.

1) Is there a min. # of vessels

2) Is there a word doc or other form or format that we are to keep our records in?

3) Is there a section of the web site to upload pictures, etc?

If I had to make a summary of my understanding, it would be

1) Use two of more vessels of the type displayed

2) For each vessel prepare the same weight of meat

3) In the cooking vessels (or skillet) brown each sample of meat in as much as the same way as possible; e.g., same weights/quant. of fat, etc.

4) In each vessel place 1/2 inch of the same liquid

5) Place in 325 degree (F) oven and take temp reading every 1/2 hour

6) take pictures if possible

7) Stop when fork tender

8) Taste small amount from each vessel

9) From each vessel reserve 3 equal pieces in some container along with some of the liquid (stored seperately).

My questions...

0) I would like to braise in a heavy Alum. Roasting pan and a light-weight disposable "tin" pan (a full depth stream pan sized pan). Is that ok?

1) When Browning are we going to brown each side? each end? etc? The cooked samples in your picture are still a bit red esp. on the ends.

2) If we are using bone-in meat, are we going to weight the bone and the meat seperately or together?

3) Is there a min. weight of meat to reserve?

4) Is it ok to discard the bone(s) for the reheating experiment(s)? (e.g., not reserve the bone?)

5) Is there a list of acceptable liquids? or is it just Stock, Wine, Water?

6) You don't mention seasoning; is lab one salt/pepper free? or not?

[hhawk]

In preparing for this Lab I purchased two 15 pound cyro packs of Short Ribs. I reserved one package for the lab; the other package I did a dry (ok! W E T run) and they are now @ Schnack on Special...

It was helpful for me for if I had not, I wouldn't really understand what questions to ask.

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For extra credit, here is what I did...

I cut the ribs (in the cryo pack the ribs are still attached) into "one" rib "strips."

I browned in oil and our special seasoning salt (salt, pepper, other spices). I browned every side/end, etc. including (briefly) the bone side.

I browned in the braising pan.

I'm using 15 lbs here; I added 120 oz. of Sam Adams Beer and about 80 oz of water plus 3 lbs of mushrooms.

I braised for about 3 hours, reserved the liquid and the meat.

The meat was tender and had shrunk by about 1/2; maybe more.

I reduced the reserved liquid by 1/2 in a sauce pan and cooled over night.

About 1/2 way through the reduction, I removed and reserved the mushrooms.

This morning I de-fatted the liquid reserving about 3-4 oz of fat.

I made a roux with 1/2 cup of SR Flour and the reserved "beef" fat

I added 3 tablespoons of oil to the roux as it seems too "tight"

I added the roux to the remaining liquid which had on the stove top reducing and warming (in a large roasting pan). The pan covers two burners both set on Med. flame.

I sliced the mushroom in 1/2 and added back to the liquid/roux mixture.

I added 2 cups of Sour Cream.

At each stage of adding roux or Sour cream I wisked.

I added NO other seasoning other than that used to brown the meat.

I reduced liquid into a nice sauce.

We are serving today for $7, 1 rib (5 to 8 oz), the mushroom sauce and some garlic Mashed Pot.

FYI, sampled some of the mushroom sauce to my early AM French Fry eating customers so they could dip their fries in it.. It was well recieved.

[hhawk]

Raw, a nice meaty short rib might run 3.5" x 1/5" x 1.5" -- though most are not even that big.

From the Cryp Pack, they are about 8 or 11 inches long and up to 2.25 wide and about 1.5 thick, depending on how you cut them.

[Fat Guy]

The problem is that the difference between a Le Crueset and tin foil with a full batch might be less than the difference between full tin foil and a single short rib. If this is the case, then your comparisons become worthless.

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Lab #1 is designed to ascertain the differences between the same thing being braised in different vessels, not the differences between batch sizes in a single vessel. If we wanted to design a lab for the latter, we could, and anybody is welcome to do it as "extra credit" for the open discussion on Friday. But the fact that there are many possible comparisons out there, and that some may offer greater contrasts than others, has nothing to do with the worth of any given comparison.

[Fat Guy]

1) Is there a min. # of vessels

2) Is there a word doc or other form or format that we are to keep our records in?

3) Is there a section of the web site to upload pictures, etc?

1) Two would be the minimum, and four would be preferable

2) Please keep your notes in any format that is useful to you and where the text can be cut-and-pasted into an eG Forums post

3) On Monday evening, as per the schedule, we will create a topic onto which you can place a summary of your notes (aka a "lab report"). You can upload your photos to ImageGullet and insert those images into your lab report.

1) Use two of more vessels of the type displayed

2) For each vessel prepare the same weight of meat

3) In the cooking vessels (or skillet) brown each sample of meat in as much as the same way as possible; e.g., same weights/quant. of fat, etc.

4) In each vessel place 1/2 inch of the same liquid

5) Place in 325 degree (F) oven and take temp reading every 1/2 hour

6) take pictures if possible

7) Stop when fork tender

8) Taste small amount from each vessel

9) From each vessel reserve 3 equal pieces in some container along with some of the liquid (stored seperately).

Exactly right.

0) I would like to braise in a heavy Alum. Roasting pan and a light-weight disposable "tin" pan (a full depth stream pan sized pan). Is that ok?

1) When Browning are we going to brown each side? each end? etc? The cooked samples in your picture are still a bit red esp. on the ends.

2) If we are using bone-in meat, are we going to weight the bone and the meat seperately or together?

3) Is there a min. weight of meat to reserve?

4) Is it ok to discard the bone(s) for the reheating experiment(s)? (e.g., not reserve the bone?)

5) Is there a list of acceptable liquids? or is it just Stock, Wine, Water?

6) You don't mention seasoning; is lab one salt/pepper free? or not?

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0) Yes

1) You can brown all 6 faces of the rectangular prism that is a short rib, or you can (as I did) brown the 4 main faces and not the two "ends." So long as you do it the same for each.

3) I'm going to do it together, but you could do it separately too, for "extra credit"

4) Yes, if that is your preference and you do it uniformly, though you might want to save the bones for stock

5) Stock, wine and water are recommended, but you could use other liquids so long as you maintain uniformity in the relevant comparisons (e.g., if comparing vessels, you use the same liquid in each vessel). On the day when we do liquid comparisons, however, it will be more important to use stock, wine and water (plus aromatic vegetables where the instructions, to be posted Monday, will indicate)

6) I won't be seasoning, but you can if that's your preference; again, just be sure to do the same thing to each sample.

Thanks for all these great questions. I think they will help others.

[Fat Guy]

From the Cryp Pack, they are about 8 or 11 inches long and up to 2.25 wide and about 1.5 thick, depending on how you cut them.

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I'm envious of anyone who can get institutional meat cuts. You could go your whole life and never see short ribs of those dimensions in a supermarket! I'm coming to your place for dinner at the end of the course.

[slkinsey]

Steven, forgive me if this question is already planned for the future or explained... As I understand it, for Lab 1 all the various braising vessels go into the oven? I'm asking because, as you know, one may also braise on the stovetop and what may result a "no difference" comparison in the oven might result in a "huge difference" comparison on the stove top.

[Safran]

[ You could go your whole life and never see short ribs of those dimensions in a supermarket! I'm coming to your place for dinner at the end of the course.

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The butcher had so many questions about how I wanted these things cut!!! I would have needed a laptop to show him your pictures. Eventually, I think I got what I needed and am ready....

I do have one question: each "vessel" has 4 pieces, right? And we keep 3 from each "vessel"...??

[Fat Guy]

Steven, forgive me if this question is already planned for the future or explained...  As I understand it, for Lab 1 all the various braising vessels go into the oven?  I'm asking because, as you know, one may also braise on the stovetop and what may result a "no difference" comparison in the oven might result in a "huge difference" comparison on the stove top.

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For Lab 1, yes, all go in the oven. This is a vessel comparison, not a heating method comparison. In a later lab, we will do a heating method comparison between oven and stovetop.

[Fat Guy]

[ You could go your whole life and never see short ribs of those dimensions in a supermarket! I'm coming to your place for dinner at the end of the course.

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The butcher had so many questions about how I wanted these things cut!!! I would have needed a laptop to show him your pictures. Eventually, I think I got what I needed and am ready....

I do have one question: each "vessel" has 4 pieces, right? And we keep 3 from each "vessel"...??

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You could definitely do it that way -- it would be nice to have all that extra material -- but the minimum is only that you have one piece in each vessel, and that you save three of the four total pieces. I wouldn't feel right requiring 4x4 pieces every day for 4 days straight -- that's like 42 million short ribs.

Just a quick note in terms of understanding short ribs, the following two references may be of interest to ultra-die-hards:

Institutional Meat Purchase Specifications for Beef (IMPS) -- here you will find photos of the chuck and plate and descriptions of different types of short ribs. It's a 2mb download, and once you pull up the .pdf file you want to focus on cuts 123 and 130.

Beef Cuts Chart from the National Cattlemen's Beef Association. The short ribs I get at the supermarket look a lot like the ones at the bottom of the Chuck section (top left box, last cut depicted in the box), although mine are cut longer -- one of mine is like those two pieces combined.

[Boris_A]

As a comment, not a question:

for me, the alufoil vessel is an interesting (because stretching to limits), but purely academical research.

I'm paying ~50 cents for an one-way alufoil vessel, but I'm sure I can get a 0 cents, reusable braising vessel (a suitable pan) within 2 weeks when carefully watching what people is throwing away at the scrap iron collecting place.

And sametime, I just cannot imagine of anyone in real life who cares about braising subtleties and cannot spend $10-20 on an el-chepo, new pan suitable for braising in an oven.

But I'm interested in the results about braising in an alufoil vessel as well.

Edited February 12, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[Fat Guy]

No matter how much I try to avoid it, I sometimes find myself using aluminum foil pans (by the way, I was walking up Third Avenue in Manhattan today and saw the 5 for 99 cents!). Every once in awhile I get in a situation where I need to do something like braise six briskets at once for a pot luck, and I only have two vessels big enough to hold a brisket. So I use the foil trays (doubled up for stability). Plus if I'm transporting them, I can take the foil trays wherever I'm going and just leave them there -- nothing to carry back, nothing to clean. For that and other reasons I thought it would be interesting to use foil trays as one of our vessels. You could also just construct a pseudo-tray/pouch out of several layers of foil. But be extremely careful if you do that, and only do it if you're experienced at working with foil under such conditions. Be especially cautious when looking in to check progress and temperature -- I don't want this class filling up the emergency rooms and burn units of the world's hospitals.

[hhawk]

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[hhawk]

For the record, then, I'm going to be using Sam Adams Beer as my liquid. I will be placing one bone in each pan of equal weight. I will be placing 1 or 2 pieces of meat in each pan of equal total weight and also equal measurement(s); equal being within 1/2 oz.

For the segment requiring a particular liquid I will use a semi dry red wine, the name I can't recall; I believe from Austria or Germany. I do have some 1834 Madeira but that would be a waste..

I'll be cooking Lab one on Sunday PM and then the rest of the labs on the same day as everyone else (i'm off on Mondays and I will not have access to everything I need...).

FYI, I was considering seperating the bone from the meat and roasting it prior to braising but I will save that for some other "event."

1) Is there a min. # of vessels

2) Is there a word doc or other form or format that we are to keep our records in?

3) Is there a section of the web site to upload pictures, etc?

1) Two would be the minimum, and four would be preferable

2) Please keep your notes in any format that is useful to you and where the text can be cut-and-pasted into an eG Forums post

3) On Monday evening, as per the schedule, we will create a topic onto which you can place a summary of your notes (aka a "lab report"). You can upload your photos to ImageGullet and insert those images into your lab report.

1) Use two of more vessels of the type displayed

2) For each vessel prepare the same weight of meat

3) In the cooking vessels (or skillet) brown each sample of meat in as much as the same way as possible; e.g., same weights/quant. of fat, etc.

4) In each vessel place 1/2 inch of the same liquid

5) Place in 325 degree (F) oven and take temp reading every 1/2 hour

6) take pictures if possible

7) Stop when fork tender

8) Taste small amount from each vessel

9) From each vessel reserve 3 equal pieces in some container along with some of the liquid (stored seperately).

Exactly right.

0) I would like to braise in a heavy Alum. Roasting pan and a light-weight disposable "tin" pan (a full depth stream pan sized pan). Is that ok?

1) When Browning are we going to brown each side? each end? etc? The cooked samples in your picture are still a bit red esp. on the ends.

2) If we are using bone-in meat, are we going to weight the bone and the meat seperately or together?

3) Is there a min. weight of meat to reserve?

4) Is it ok to discard the bone(s) for the reheating experiment(s)? (e.g., not reserve the bone?)

5) Is there a list of acceptable liquids? or is it just Stock, Wine, Water?

6) You don't mention seasoning; is lab one salt/pepper free? or not?

←

0) Yes

1) You can brown all 6 faces of the rectangular prism that is a short rib, or you can (as I did) brown the 4 main faces and not the two "ends." So long as you do it the same for each.

3) I'm going to do it together, but you could do it separately too, for "extra credit"

4) Yes, if that is your preference and you do it uniformly, though you might want to save the bones for stock

5) Stock, wine and water are recommended, but you could use other liquids so long as you maintain uniformity in the relevant comparisons (e.g., if comparing vessels, you use the same liquid in each vessel). On the day when we do liquid comparisons, however, it will be more important to use stock, wine and water (plus aromatic vegetables where the instructions, to be posted Monday, will indicate)

6) I won't be seasoning, but you can if that's your preference; again, just be sure to do the same thing to each sample.

Thanks for all these great questions. I think they will help others.

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[Mottmott]

This workshop is timely, I needed to make up a big batch of brown stock anyway!

One hitch: I have never, probably will never, braise anything in alumifoil, so I'll probably do mine in LC, stainless, ceramic, and copper. Or I could do the last in a speckled enamelled steel if you think that would be a better approximation to the alumifoil. I'd do one in unglazed ceramic, but mine's too big for a two rib braise.

Lastly, do you have any problem with our seasoning our braises, herbs and spices as usual, assuming we do so consistently for all samples?

This sounds like fun. Wish I had a digicam. Maybe I can enlist my son to take some pics in exchange for eating the ribs. (His wife's a vegetarian.)

[Fat Guy]

Please do try to get some photos -- it will make the discussions all the more interesting. And yes, I think seasoning is fine so long as it's applied uniformly and it's not so powerful as to reduce your ability to taste the meat. In terms of vessels, I like the idea of copper. I don't know that we have anybody using a copper pot yet, so that will augment our database.

I wanted to mention that I'll be offline for most of tomorrow, Sunday. I'll try to answer whatever questions are online by about 9:00am New York time, and then I'll be back online late in the evening to get caught up. Janet Zimmerman ("JAZ"), the dean of the eGCI, will be around and is fully conversant with the course logistics, so she may step in to answer questions if they are urgent, e.g., "I'm at the market right now and the butcher is asking how to cut the short ribs . . ."