Paris...not to miss?

[thnkart]

So are you telling me that to truely experience the wonders of french food, I must spend $500.00 on dinner?  I know that cost is relative.  I don't even look at the prices when I eat out.  I order what I want and pay what it costs. Even doing this, I've never paid over $200.00 for dinnner (excluding wine) anywhere.  I've also never eaten in the finest restaurants in the food capitals of even the US.  I'm certainly not criticizing anyone for paying any amount of money for any food. Cost is relative.  I know if I crave something bad enough I'll pay whatever it costs to eat it.  I guess the "10% extra quality costing more than 10%" statement best explains it to me.  ANYWAY...now that I"ve rambled on and on...if anyone can suggest to me some places I might dine that would convince me to try a $500.00 dinner...I'm open for suggestions.

[robert brown]

thnkart, I know of almost no restaurant in Paris that would cost you $500 per couple with decent wine. There are lots of restaurants in Paris that are not expensive and not multi-starred that will make you feel lots of "Parisness". In fact, there are several expensive, multi-starred restaurants that will not reek of "Parisness": "Starck"ly internationally-designed rooms serving some half-French/half-somewhere else "personal" cuisine that could be in any capital city.

When I was really on top of the Paris dining situation several years ago, I would recommend to those who asked me where they should dine during a short stay in Paris, I almost always chose what I felt were the classic Paris restaurants: places like Benoit, Chez Pauline, L'Ami Louis (rather expensive and more than $75. but what a place!) and Le Recamier, a restaurant no one mentions, but which serves classic Burgundian food and lots of Burgundy wines). Others can provide a lot more names of restaurants such as these. Furthermore, I suspect they represent the kind of restaurant of which few will exist a decade or two from now.

[ajay]

Robert (Brown),

In what way do you think that "health, calories etc" should be taken into account when dinning? And how much should such characteristics be weighted?

So you think that if one was was concerned with health calories fats and so on, Tokyo is a better dinning spot, but if not, Paris (or France, at least) still reigns supreme?

I'm fortunate enough that my health does not make such considereations mandatory.  Thus, I generally avoid them when dinning out for special occassions.

Bux,

My family and I visited l'astrance with a somewhat limited background in haute cuisine, and an even smaller background in traditional Fench cuisine (the latter was largely due to the fact that traditional french cuisine and restaurants do not cater that well to vegetarians).  

Yet, the entire party agreed that our lunch was exemplary, and arguably the best overall dinning experience we had in a journey that included several other three stars.  I'm sure the some of the subtleties of Barbot's cooking and choice of ingredients simply passed us by unnonticed.  But, we noticed that Barbot seemed to present a cuisine every bit as tasty and exciting as that we had enjoyed at l'Arpege the night before--except that he was not using the same ultra-luxe ingredients (though one dish did contain caviar) or extremely labor intensive preparations.

Steve KIc's commentary on El Bulli's mango/passion raviolis has added insight to the avocado and crab ravioli served at l'Astrance, but the dish, as you and Patricia Wells both note is delicious, and it afforded the non-vegetarian members of our party with great pleasure and stimulated some curiosity without the benefit these insights.  Indeed, even the vegetarian version of this dish (with quasi pureed avocado in place of the crab and a heavier amount of hazlenut? oil) was also excellent.  The combination of the textures and their interplay with the oil was an intruiging and enjoyable sensation that wasn't present in quite the same way with the crab.

Even after experiencing l'Astrance, and the wisdom of this board, not to mention haute cuisine in France and NYC, I'm not entirely clear on what other aspects of the cuisine of l'Astrance are "avant garde"--except for the ingredients and preparations I've discussed already.  I would be grateful if you could expand on this topic for me.

Of all the restaurants I tried in France, l'Astrance is the one to which I'm most eager to return.  The maitre d' informed us that the chef prefers to take staggaires (sic) from other countries to gain insights into more diverse cuisines.  Moreover, we were told the chef was planning a trip to India in the near future and our reccomendations on where to experience local, Indian cuisine were solicited. In short, I have a suspicion that Barbot has not fully refined his personal idiom of expression, and I hope to see how his cooking evolves.

[cabrales]

In what way do you think that "health, calories etc" should be taken into account when dinning? And how much should such characteristics be weighted?

ajay -- I am fortunate enough to also not have to take cholerestol and other limiting factors into account. I recognize I won't be able to eat and drink with abandon the way I am, at future points in time. I do worry a bit about the potential for weight gain, although that has not yet affected me materially so far. Of course, I could exercise regularly to offset some of these potentially negative effects, but I don't. There is even a gym in my building, but that has not helped.  

[Bux]

Robert, tell me more about Recamier. We've often stayed around the corner from it and it's been recommended, but we've never managed to eat there. Partially I suspect, because it is as you say, "a restaurant no one mentions."

Thnkart, I am not telling you that to truly experience the wonders of French food, you must spend $500.00 on dinner. I will admit that it's getting pretty easy to get a bad meal in Paris these days at cheap restaurants, but depending upon what one thinks of as "wonders," you can do pretty well at all price levels if you're careful.

A few years back, with some fabulous reseverations later in the trip at provincial restaurants, we had wonderful meals in three Parisian restaurants. None of these meals cost more than $30-40 per person without wine. They were all very Parisan and I suspect their match could not be found in Tampa, which is not the same thing as saying there might not be better restaurants in Tampa.

One restaurant was Philippe Dutourbe, mentioned earlier in this thread. Another was Eric Frechon's eponymous restaurant. He, unfortunately for us, took over the kitchens at the Bristol and you will pay much more for his cooking, although you are likely to get fore gras and caviar now. The last one was one of my favorite all time bistros--La Regalade. It still seems to get good reviews, but we've had two negative reports here in eGullet.com and at least one of those came from a source I trust and respect. It served very hearty and rustic French food--coarse pates, blood sausage, kidneys and that sort of thing. It's what I would call rich food, fatty as well, but I heard that several gourmets with good American credentials found it "greasy" when asked how they liked it after having it recommeded by another American whose food tastes I trust.

This brings us back to the earlier questions some posters asked about your taste in food, where else you have eaten or where esle you intend to eat. Many of us know that our tastes are our tastes and that what we like, may not suit everyone else. All restaurant recommendations should come with some caveat. By the way, thanks for sticking with this. While some of us may have been critical of the idea that Paris couldn't have restaurants that are than much better than Tampa's, it would have been quite easy for you to be offended by one or more reactions here.

Once I've established that there are incredible restaurants in Paris, I have no reason to convince you that life is not worth living without experiencing one of them. There are dozens of really good restaurants, which may not compare, but which will offer a great meal and even a memorable experience. I think it would be easy to spend over $500 on dinner for two with reasonable wines, although I can't recall doing it and I've had a few splurges.

Where are you staying in Paris? The more centrally located, the more likely a restaurant will cater to tourists. The Michelin guide, which many people think of as guide to the expensive Michelin starred restaurants, is also a great guide to the lesser restaurants of France. At any price range and degree of elegance, a restaurant with a listing in Michelin is likely to be a better deal than a neighbor that's unlisted. The GaultMillau guide is a more interesting guide as it has a short text for each restaurant and will enable you to get a better idea of the restaurants listed. Both will show prices as well as list addresses and phone numbers.

[cabrales]

Many of us know that our tastes are our tastes and that what we like, may not suit everyone else. All restaurant recommendations should come with some caveat.

Bux -- I have thought about the subjectivity of restaurant and cuisine preferences some in recent days. This led to greater concern on my part regarding detrimental reliance by other members on my explicit or implicit recommendations: Click here. I will continue to think about the matter a bit more.  

[Steve Klc]

Pirate--thanks for dropping in out of the blue with welcome comments (I suppose every new member drops in out of the blue) but please, read a few other threads before jumping down the gullets of the posters here who stayed true to the original topic--and answered the original question about where to eat in Paris--which restaurant in Paris shouldn't they miss?

The question wasn't should I go to Tokyo instead or would I get better bang for my buck in the provinces rather than Paris.  

If you'd like to posit that Tokyo is the dining capital of the world, great, we'd all love to hear why you feel that way. In fact, it would be the most thought-provoking new thread topic in quite a while! Debating the merits of cooking in and out of Paris is an old saw and certainly worthy of a revisit.  We've discussed it plenty around here.  If you surf more you'll find alot of Paris restaurants and chefs "measured" against non-Paris restaurants and chefs--I regret that you leaped to conclusions that aren't supportable after even a cursory reading of the site, since you're obviously experienced with strong opinions.

Unless you have read around the site and found the perspectives here wanting?  In that case, do tell, as cabrales and robert brown suggested previously.

and thnkart--now you know why I had a hard time making a recommendation for you initially--now I'm really at a loss after your comment about doubting Parisian restaurants could be that much better than the Tampa scene and now your "I've also never eaten in the finest restaurants in the food capitals of even the US."  I wish it weren't so--but both of these complicate your situation and ours in trying to guide you to the best restaurant experience for you and your husband.

Both comments speak to your awareness, your openness and your experience--and none of this is negative but it is personal--most of us here feel the same restaurant experience can be viewed vastly differently by two different people given their respective dining experiences.  If you have not eaten much in New York--let alone secondary US food cities (of which Tampa would not be included alongside the likes of SF, Chicago, LA et al)--I fear L'Astrance might not be for you, on this trip anyway--even though it is terrific and certainly the best price to value recommendation.

Specific questions for you--have you and your husband eaten recently at The California Grill in Disneyworld--and if so, how did you enjoy your experience there? Have you eaten in any "French" restaurants in NYC and how were those experiences?

This isn't a flame and it isn't a putdown--it just reflects my opinion that there are food realities out there--and one of them is that it helps to have a basis for comparison.  I think that is all anyone here is trying to gauge for you--and even pirate in his own way was providing a basis for comparison, however misplaced in this thread.  It is ok not to know--none of us knows all the answers and has eaten enough anywhere not to still constantly learn from others.

But your two comments give me pause that our suggestions--even of L'Astrance--would be helpful.  I still wish you'd go, though, with an open mind and not trying to make comparisons based on experiences you don't have under your belt, and remember you'll have a big advantage over most other Americans in the same boat of dining in Paris for the first time: your husband speaks French.  Enjoy that advantage and please report back wherever you end up eating.

[Bux]

Bux,

My family and I visited l'astrance with a somewhat limited background in haute cuisine, and an even smaller background in traditional Fench cuisine (the latter was largely due to the fact that traditional french cuisine and restaurants do not cater that well to vegetarians).  

Yet, the entire party agreed that our lunch was exemplary, and arguably the best overall dinning experience we had in a journey that included several other three stars.

Ajay, our posts crossed last night and I didn't read yours although mine was posted later. You present the other side of the coin and I think I touched on this once before somewhere in a post. When a chef is creative enough, he begins to challenge existing conventions and his food can usually be appreciated best by a diner without preconceptions. So there is a paradox. Diners inexperienced with classic French food might not appreciate the innovation, but might be more open to enjoy the taste, while the old French hand may stumble trying to understand the creativity before allowing the flavor to penetrate his senses. At El Bulli, we found a group of hikers who knew nothing of the three star mystique, but were able to respond directly to the food as a sensory joy.

Why am I thinking of l'Astrance as far out? I suppose it's just because it's not traditional or classic food and because it flows from yet another chef and restaurant that's been on the cutting edge (Arpege). Perhaps it's only one thing that sticks in my mind. With a dish of tuna (not served rare as in NYC) there was a fresh uncooked cherry on the plate. It was so out of place. I recall too many savory plates in the American boondocks garnished with a slice of orange or cantelope as if that added class. At l'Astrance, I was curious and popped the fruit in my mouth. Oddly enough, the taste was unlike any cherry I have ever had before. I didn't understand it, but I realized Barbot knew what the sensation would be. Yet I think others at my table just couldn't bring themselves to eat the cherry. It was too much of an afront to their palate. If you had never had French cuisine, you might not know that and that might free you to better enjoy the food. So you are correct in challenging my statement at face value.

I have some thoughts on the avocado ravioli with crab meat. The style, or form of the presentation owes a debt to dishes mentioned elsewhere that preceded it and the combination of avocado and seafood salad is almost a cliche even in unsophisticated American restaurants, but for some reason it all seemed very fresh upon presentation. Perhaps it was the grace and elegance with which it was done and which has an immediate appeal not at all dependent on any familiarity with Italian ravioli or nouvelle pineapple ravioli.

Thank you for refuting my post as you did.

[Bux]

I have thought about the subjectivity of restaurant and cuisine preferences some in recent days. This led to greater concern on my part regarding detrimental reliance by other members on my explicit or implicit recommendations:

As I once said to someone else--and I've become fond of repeating this line--"You recommended the right restaurant to the wrong person." If someone asks for your advice, that's all you can do is give your advice. You have to assume they know and trust your taste, or know how to factor that taste into the recommendation. It helps to know the person to whom you offer the advice as well as it helps to know the person offering the advice. While thnkart didn't tell us much about herself in the opeing post, she did ask "why" we were making our recommendation.