Paris...not to miss?

[thnkart]

What one restaurant would you recommend for a very nice dinner that won't break the bank  (under $150.00 for a couple) and why?  AND how far in advance would you make reservations?

[Bux]

I'd make reservations as far in advance as possible. That's generally one month. That's independant of wherever you choose.

I guess my nomination would be l'Astrance. Michelin shows their best (most expensive) menu to be 76 euros and it includes wine. At the current exchange rate that leaves you change for tip and or coffee or bottled water. There's a 58 euro menu as well. I can't think of another place as special for the money.

[Steve Klc]

How often do you dine in Paris? are you a first time visitor or experienced?

What are some examples of very nice dinners that you have had elsewhere and why were they nice?

Otherwise, I find it hard to give you a meaningful recommendation.

[Bux]

Steve, for me, l'Astrance was such a clear standout at it's price that it isn't hard for me to recommend it, but I will agree that all recommendations are subjective and the even l'Astrance might not be the best place for everyone. Thinkart thought enough about that to ask members to say why when they made their recommendation. Although so much has already been written about l'Astrance on this board that it seems to superfluous to say it again, I also realize that the search function is to working as it should, or as it did. It should be noted that l'Astrance is creative food. I'd by no means call it fusion as the influences are so wide as to not call any particular foreign cuisine to mind. It's quite possible and not unreasonable that a first time visitor to Paris, especially one not familiar with avant garde cooking elsewhere might be better served at a more traditional restaurant or even a great bistro serving good old fashioned French food.

[thnkart]

This is my first time to Paris.  I do not care much for meat (chicken is ok) I love all veggies, mild fish,scallops, shrimp, and crab.  We live in the Tampa Bay Florida area and frequently eat at what are considered the better restaurants in the area.  I like creative cuisine so L'Astrance sounds nice.  I'm concerned that I would not be able to find a menu without meat and I don't know what the a la carte menu prices are like.  I was also under the impression that reservations at L'Astrance are very difficult to secure.  thanks for your interest!!

[ajay]

Thnkart,

Reservations are indeed very hard to come by at l'Astrance. However, my experience is in line with the rest of this foru,; if you manage to secure a reservation, you will enjoy it.

The suprise tasting menu was principally seafood, with one meat dish.  I'm sure if you requesst an all seafood menu they would be happy to oblige.  As Bux has previously noted, the price of this menu (including wine, and in our case coffee and water) is 76 euros.

The carte prices are as follows: 15-25 euros (appitzers), entrees 19-32 euros (with most around 25 euros) for the main course and 10 euros for dessert.  The wine list is also exceptionally well priced; I don't have enough experience to determine the value of the list, but the prices are quite reasonable.

[Bux]

True, reservations are very difficult, if not impossible to secure. I also don't know that it would be as valuable a meal for a first time diner as for someone already familiar with restaurants in Paris.

Paris is an interesting place in that there are many relatively inexpensive restaurants where $100 would cover a couple and yet the better places can run two or three times that per person. The last time we were there we had meals under $100 and over $275, but nothing in between. That's just another reason why l'Astrance sticks in my mind.

Phillipe Dutourbe is in the 15th arr. We haven't been there in some years, but it was wonderful and the menu is only 37 euros without wine or coffee. The propblem is that there's a single menu of about five courses with no choices. Hard to say in advance what he mght offer, but it will be vegetables, sea food and meat or fowl along the way. In terms of food, atmosphere and service, "nice" is an understatement. The wine list is small but reasonable.

Les Bookinistes came up on another thread. It's very centrally located on the quai on the left bank. I recall somewhat creative food there. In this case I also recall offal meats and interesting fish.

[Bux]

 The wine list [at l'Astrance] is also exceptionally well priced; I don't have enough experience to determine the value of the list, but the prices are quite reasonable.

As I recall, at those prices, it was good value if it was drinkable and they were more than that. My recollection was of very inexpensive wines that were interesting and about as inexpensive as you'd find at a restaurant of far lower quality. But maybe it's the food talking.

When the wines are included as in the tasting menu, they like to cover the label as they pour and ask you to guess the region and cépage. They also like to play those guessing games with the ingredients in the dishes. I don't know if they do that with all diners.

[grahamtigg]

Thnkart - if you can manage lunch (and in many ways lunch is a better time for appreciating food since for most people the senses are sharper) then a reservation at l'Astrance should be easier to secure.

Nevertheless, I would second Bux that 'Astrance is somewhat of a one-off in Paris and if you're only having one meal there you'll have a very pleasant but stilted experience.

Do you have other eating out plans in Paris/France?

[SamanthaF]

We have a booking for L'Astrance!!!!!! 15th May can't come soon enough.

However, little tip when trying to secure a reservation - do speak French. On my first call to the restaurant I asked (in French) if they spoke English (my French is not 'fantastic' ) They promptly said 'Non' and hung up!  Luckily, a colleague of mine who speaks fluent french telephoned them to secure a booking on my behalf.

[ajay]

SamanthaF,

I speak no French, but I found reservationist to be as polite and understanding as that of any other french restaurant I've ever dealt with in english.  That said, I suspect that the restaurant would probably prefer to have more French clients--the afternoon we went for lunch, all of the tables save one were filled with english speaking tourists.  

I think the management may hold the tables upstairs at lunch for French speakers.  The day we went, one party was seated up there, but the other tables upstairs went empty.  Yet, the management professed to be booked when my father tried to secure a reservation (he didn't realize that I had already gotten one).

[cabrales]

I think the management may hold the tables upstairs at lunch for French speakers.  The day we went, one party was seated up there, but the other tables upstairs went empty.  

ajay -- Based on my visits, that upstairs area is rarely utilized. The one time I have seen somebody up there, there was, as you saw when you visited, one table. My sense is that the restaurant may see its present capacity as relating to the ground floor area.  

SamanthaF -- When your friend telephoned, did she have to adhere to the 30-day advance reservation policy?

[thnkart]

My husband is french canadian so he speaks fluent french.  We will try to get reservations at l'Astrance.  We don't go until the end of June so this would be well in advance.  I sure would hate it though if there was a restaurant here in town that you had to make reservations for a month in advance.  I don't usually plan that far in advance. Do many locals even eat there? Also, someone asked if I had other dining plans in Paris. We have no plans as of yet so are definately open to suggestions.  I really DO like good food but do not want to pay half a month's mortgage for dinner.  I'm going to get blasted for this statement...but I can't believe the food is THAT much better in Paris!!! l'Astrance sounds like a place we can go and get a very good meal for what we are accustomed to paying at home.

[Scottf]

Cabrales

The actual 30 days fell on a Monday when L'Astrance is closed, so Sam managed to secure the booking once L'Astrance were preparing for evening service on the Tuesday.  Not strictly 30 days, but in reality yes.

Ajay

Sounds like Sam was unlucky with whomever answered her first call to the restaurant!  Perhaps her French is worse than she realised  

[Steve Klc]

Not blasted, but thnkart you--seriously--don't think the food in Paris could be that much better than the high end restaurants in Tampa?

[Bux]

I'm going to get blasted for this statement...but I can't believe the food is THAT much better in Paris!!! l'Astrance sounds like a place we can go and get a very good meal for what we are accustomed to paying at home.

There are flames, but there are also invitations to be flamed. Why do you find it hard to believe that the best food in the gastronomic capital of the western world is that much better than in Tampa? What I'm really hearing is that food is not all that important to you.

Now let me tread on dangerous ground, and you may feel free to blast me, but I have to suggest that l'Astrance is not the best place for you to experience French food as, in my opinion, I think an appreciation of what they are doing requires some familiarity with current trends in haute cuisine as well as some familiarity with the type of restaurant in which the chef learned his metier. Still, I have to agree that it's an excellent buy.

You ask if locals eat there. In Tampa that may be the best indication of a good restaurant, but it's clear that you don't understand that some of us fly thousands of miles, not to see the Venus di Milo or the view from the Eiffel Tower (terrible because you can't avoid Sacre Coeur) but to dine in Paris. Paris is the restaurant district of the world.

[Beachfan]

What I'm really hearing is that food is not all that important to you.

I hear something similar, but not quite that.  I have friends to whom food is very important, they think about it as much as e-gulleters, but wouldn't ever spend $100 on a meal (and they can afford it if they wanted to).  

It has to do with the additonal pleasure one enounters as one moves up the quality scale.  At the high end, 10% extra quality (however defined) will cost much more than 10% extra price.

For me, the extra 10% is almost always worth it.  For others it isn't.  But I don't think it means that they enjoy their meals less.  They just have parameters for enjoyment that are easier to achieve.

That being said, I think your advice sounds great.

[Bux]

What I'm really hearing is that food is not all that important to you.

I hear something similar, but not quite that.  I have friends to whom food is very important, they think about it as much as e-gulleters, but wouldn't ever spend $100 on a meal (and they can afford it if they wanted to).  

It has to do with the additonal pleasure one enounters as one moves up the quality scale.  At the high end, 10% extra quality (however defined) will cost much more than 10% extra price.

For me, the extra 10% is almost always worth it.  For others it isn't.  But I don't think it means that they enjoy their meals less.  They just have parameters for enjoyment that are easier to achieve.

As someone with relatively limited means (don't we all have relatively limited means) I choose to spend on food and dining in a disproportionate manner. My friends think I'm crazy and in restaurants I sit next to guys whose shoes cost more than the clothes on my back plus all my shoes. The only difference is that I don't say (out loud) that I can't believe their clothes are that much better. I've shopped the racks in places I don't buy and I understand the difference in quality and that it's not all due to the designer label. I also understand why people are connoisseurs in areas in which I choose not to develop my tastes. Moreover, I might not go to a shoe fetish site and say I don't believe the handmade Italian mocs you've just lavished much praise on in several posts are that much better than my Bass loafers.

This would probably be a good time to note that I wasn't born with my present taste in food, nor did I learn it from my parents. On my first trips to France I, and later we, sought out the least expensive places in Paris and the countryside. Admittedly those were days when it was next to impossible to get a bad meal in France. Such is not the case today and I am glad to have been able to learn about French food from the bottom up. I fully understand an interest in getting a good, but not great meal in Paris the same way I understand picking up a pair of Mephisto shoes at a bargain price is not a slap in the face of haute couture.

What I wish I could recommend is the good traditional bistro offering an excellent meal and mostly frequented by locals. The fact is that lately my interests in even the moderate places has been in those serving more avant garde food, or food so rustic that I am not inclined to recommend it to those unfamiliar with real French food. The kind of dish I've been drawn to lately is blood sausage or andouille and andouillette. Lest anyone say they like Cajun food, this name in France is taken by a large sausage made of stomach and intestines and often quite barn yardy in aroma. Many an American has ordered it in the belief he knew what he was getting.

[cabrales]

I choose to spend on food and dining in a disproportionate manner....

Bux -- I agree wholeheartedly that what one chooses what confers pleasure. While at one point in time, the latest handbag or a non-food holiday might have brought me some temporary satisfaction and I spent considerable time shopping for non-food items, I no longer want to travel to places without decent restaurants and no longer shop for clothing (except in response to an identifable need).  It is now quite clear how I should be allocating my personal free time.

Is it likely that a diner's palate, with certain exceptions no doubt, is not generally something inherent with which one is "born"?  For me, a diner's palate needs to be coaxed and nursed. (Certain people may have better senses of taste or smell, etc. than others, and may be intrinsically better able at detecting flavor combinations and cooking creatively than others.)  However, I have found, even over the course of certain past periods and without suggesting any particular level to be clear, that my palate has improved to a marked extent. I have been interested in restaurants and food for some time, but added exposure to cuisine in my narrow area of preference (French restaurants in France) has aided me considerably. Although I never intended it as such, the exposure had, in hindsight, arguably an "investment" aspect to it. A happy byproduct, since I was choosing to spend my earned money on restaurants while merely focusing on the more direct benefits of the restaurant experiences themselves.  While (unintended) "investments" in one's palate are not linear and may take some time to realize, they may be reaped under certain circumstances, in my assessment, even though they can never be counted on to materialize.

[pirate]

It's regrettable that all those of you who dote on restaurants  in Paris (flying

thousands of miles) don't get to measure those restaurants with others. In France itself I've found the provinces better. In Europe  Girardet when he was cooking, Witzigman when he was cooking, Comme Chez Soi

and Schwarzwaldstube at the Traube-Tonbach matched anything in France.

I haven't been to El Bulli but I suspect it is also a match. However I have no hesitation in stating that Tokyo is the top restaurant city. I don't find it strange that Hiramatsu is so sucessful. His restaurants in Tokyo are not at the top. I was in Paris in November and also this month. I ate at two 3 star four 2 star and two 1 star restaurants. Only one of the 1 star  and  one 3 star would, in my opinion, merit a return.

[cabrales]

I was in Paris in November and also this month. I ate at two 3 star four 2 star and two 1 star restaurants. Only one of the 1 star  and  one 3 star would, in my opinion, merit a return.

pirate -- Please do tell.  

[Bux]

Pirate, not so fast. I'm the one who responded to a post on eGullet.com about the superiority of the provinces in terms of both learning about French food and satisfying a craving for good food as well as haute cuisine. For every great restaurant in Paris there are perhaps two in the provinces and for every good restaurant in Paris there are a half dozen in the provinces. The ones in the provinces are usually less expensive, more comfortable and, as often as not, closer to the cutting edge. Nevertheless, St. Ettienne couldn't support Gagnaire, while Paris seems to be able to do that.

I don't know Japan very well, but I've been a great fan of northern Spain. Restaurants like Can Fabes, Martin Berasategui and Arzak are as good as any in France. They are also further from French influence than was Giradet, although I don't think either of us can deny that haute cuisine is an international a style as post Bauhaus architecture, and haute cuisine is indebted to France wherever it is cooked or practiced.

[robert brown]

Bucaneer, yes please do tell. Also, I come close to agreeing with you about Tokyo. In fact, taking into account health, calories,etc. it may be the best. It is also a bottomless pit of endless variety and impossible to get a handle on the culinary resources, which is something you can do in relatively short order even in a large city such as New York or Paris.

[Bux]

Cabrales, I think of "palate" as having at least two aspects. One is clearly educatable and influenced by it's environment. You can develop an appreciation for any kind of food. Maybe some things are natural, but most of us have to develop a taste for olives, or caviar. Maybe if we are brought up eating olives as a child, we don't see it as a learned taste. The other part of "palate" is the ability to discern flavors. Once, when tasting eaux-de-vie, the distiller told us he was convinced women generally had the keener sense of taste. That doesn't mean some men don't have a better sense than some women. My wife has a better sense of taste than I do however our daughter's senses are even better. She can deconstruct a dish and isolate flavors I am barely able to ascertain even after being told they are there. This can be developed to some extent, but you can only work with the natural talent that is there.

[cabrales]

Cabrales, I think of "palate" as having at least two aspects. One is clearly educatable and influenced by it's environment. . . . The other part of "palate" is the ability to discern flavors. . . .This can be developed to some extent, but you can only work with the natural talent that is there.

Bux -- Why might you think the second part of the "palate" -- the ability to discern flavors -- might not be developed as one tasted a range of flavors, alone or in different combinations, and as one tasted the same flavor with greater frequency?  How might one know if one has this second part of palate sufficiently?

Also, in your mind (1) how much of this second part of palate is dependent on one's sense of smell, rather than the sensations in the mouth, and (2) if you are interested in discussing it, how has this part of your palate changed over time?