Bread flour

[lmarshal1]

To the eGullet bread baking experts! Please tell me about bread flours...which brands and types to use for a simple loaf of bread. For focaccia? For pizza crust? For adding some whole grain flours? Thanks. lkm

[jackal10]

Where are you?

In the US King Arthur's brand are well spoken of.

However, if you can it is always best to use local, artisanal flour.

As Dan Lepard sas, its not so much the flour as the technique. Each flour will make its own distinctive bread, but there is no right or wrong. Flour is just one of the variables.

[binkyboots]

I love shipton mill flour, or doves farm, but in a pinch any home made bread with any bread flour will be better than most store bought breads... lidls bread flour is pretty good

Sometimes get a local bread flour at the farmers market, very nice!

[bobmac]

For pizza I recently used King Arthur's Italian-style flour. I think it has better stretchability.

Edited February 4, 2005 by bobmac (log)

[jgarner53]

I usually use King Arthur's, but will pick up local organic flour at Whole Foods if I'm there and need bread flour (I think it's Giusto's, which makes GREAT bread).

[lmarshal1]

Thanks for replies. I made focaccia with plain old all-purpose flour and was amazed at how good it was. Then I made two more small focaccia loaves with an old bread-machine mix (tossed yeast, used new) for country white bread, and it was even better. I bought a sack of whole-wheat flour and intend to use it half and half with regular flour for more focaccia. Will that work OK? I will definitely look for bread flours because if the focaccia are this good with plain old flour, I expect even better with the right stuff. Thanks again. lkm

[Catherine Iino]

The Providence Journal has an article today from the Culinary Institute of America, on scones. It includes a recipe for cream scones, credited to a forthcoming CIA cookbook. The ingredients are as follows:

3 cps bread flour

1/2 cp sugar

2 tbsp baking powder

1/2 tsp salt

2 cps heavy cream

2 tbsp milk

3 tbsp coarse sugar for topping

The mixing method is pretty standard; then you are supposed to shape the dough into a disk and freeze it for 12 hours. The article says "leaving the dough in the freezer overnight makes a more tender scone."

Two questions: First, why would they call for bread flour? I would have thought you would want pastry flour for tenderness.

And--going back to a question I raised in an earlier thread--isn't 2 tablespoons of baking powder excessive? I can't imagine that the taste wouldn't be way too evident.

[ohmyganache]

I can't really think of a answer about the bread flour. When I was at school there, we also used bread flour (so it wasn't a typo or anything... I checked). I'm guessing that the scones might be too tender and to short with a low protein flour, so perhaps the bread flour gives it more body.

And the baking soda seems fine. I make a damn fine biscuit that every time I make it I think that there is too much baking powder. It comes out great though, and 2T doesn't seem like too much.

The scones we made at CIA were really good, so have fun making that recipe...

[browniebaker]

One reason for bread flour might be that it is more similar than our all-purpose flour to the hard flour commonly used in Britain. When I make Southern biscuits, I use a low-gluten flour like White Lily, but when I make scones I make sure to use a higher-gluten all-p flour (some are higher in gluten than others). Scones are, after all, supposed to be denser than Southern biscuits.

The high amount of baking powder does seem suspect. I always thought the rule was one teaspoon baking powder per cup of flour. Too much, and one can taste the baking powder.

[chiantiglace]

well bread flour(high gluten flour) is better for a flaky dough like scones and pie dough. Some people cream there scones but I think its better to cut in the butter and the bread flour helps that process out more too because it absorbs more water/moisture than a.p.-cake-pastry flour. So when you add eggs and cream you want something to hold it in and still be flaky.

[Catherine Iino]

That's really interesting, and counterintuitive for me. I will try the recipe as written and report back.

[chefjillm]

I was a fellow (TA) at CIA and we made those scones every day. They are a really nice scone, not very flaky like some scones. From what I can tell, the bread flour was to keep them from falling apart. If it was made from a softer flour the crumb would not hold together well. Not sure if that is exactly correct but that would be my guess from working with them. Good luck and that is an awesome recipe. Try adding some pink peppercorns to it. I did those scones with strawberries and whipped creme fraiche recently at the restaurant.

[devlin]

I've made scones with bread flour and with all-purpose flour. The scones with bread flour tend to be more substantial, for lack of a better word, or as someone else noted, had more "body." Not flaky at all. In fact, the all-purpose always make more what I'd term a flaky scone.

[Catherine Iino]

I made the scones according to the recipe, and they are great. Well, almost according to the recipe--I did cut down on the baking powder a little bit. That probably wasn't necessary; they did not have the chemical baking powder flavor at all. I wonder if they relatively low hydration in this recipe (and ohmyganache's biscuits) makes a difference. And they were very nice and tender. That still baffles me. I'll have to get a copy of Harold McGee's book and see if he sheds any light.

Thanks to ohmyganache and chefjillm for the reassurances. I don't know whether I would have gone ahead and tried this recipe without you, and I am sure glad I did.

[PassionateChefsDie]

You've got me all confused, first I thought a scone recipe had an egg, so my question is to egg or not? I've googled and found both recipes, so no clearer but also why does your recipe have cream in? Fascinated by the overnight freeze, seems like your freezing them at there peak. Though curious do you get different results if you use double leavening baking powder?

All recipes I've seen stem from as far as I knew sorry for Imperial 8oz Flour(Selfraising if no soda), 2oz Butter, 1oz of Sugar, maybe an egg or not, both agree on milk though. With buttermilk being more traditional with soda as the raising agent(Yoghurt/Milk works).

Your recipe seems to have swapped butter for cream, this seems a literal recipe for a cream scone, as scones are farmhouse food.

I reckon more cheese scones got eaten. This really does seem to be a dish made by a dairy mans wife, butter would of been more use than cream.

Stef

edited to add

When we use Cream Scone it means a normal scone topped with whipped/clotted (With jam) cream, no cream in the recipe.

Edited July 2, 2005 by PassionateChefsDie (log)

[chiantiglace]

I put egg and cream in my scones.And I only make Cream Scones

[gfron1]

I'm finding conflicting information...

I am trying to buy "bread flour" from a distributor. He says he doesn't have "bread flour," but does have high protein flour. Even in our esteemed eGullet forums I have now read that BF is both high and low protein. Which is it?

[dougal]

I'm finding conflicting information...

I am trying to buy "bread flour" from a distributor.  He says he doesn't have "bread flour," but does have high protein flour.  Even in our esteemed eGullet forums I have now read that BF is both high and low protein.  Which is it?

←

If he's a good "distributor" he should have quite a wide range...

The flours used in the USA for bread are generally higher in protein content than the flours used for bread in, for example, France.

One can make "bread" with either, but not necessarily the same bread!

If you are wanting to make a light, fluffy, well risen loaf in a tin (for example for sandwiches), then you should be looking for a higher-than-average protein content, perhaps about 12+%. You don't need anything extreme (like 14% or more) - unless you want to see what it does, or perhaps to blend it with something more flavoursome. If, on the other hand, you were trying to make 'authentic' baguettes, then a particularly high protein content would not be what you were looking for in your flour.

Protein content is but one measurable quality of a flour. Its usually the most easily discoverable, but its by no means the only one. Most good bread books will devote several pages to the discussion of flours and their analysis, official gradings in different countries, testing methods and their interpretation.

Its also worth remarking that some flours sold retail as "breadmaking" (or bread machine) flour is stuffed with almost as many additives as a supermarket industrial loaf. Bromate in particular (still used within the USA) would seem worth avoiding on health grounds.

Edited May 13, 2008 by dougal (log)

[gfron1]

Thanks Dougal. That's very helpful and why I've never jumped full steam into bread

The distributor does have a range, but was pushing the 12% variety. But now I want to see if there are additives - I assume that will be listed on the package. I had no idea that there was going to be something else in my flour.

[dougal]

... But now I want to see if there are additives - I assume that will be listed on the package.  I had no idea that there was going to be something else in my flour.

←

No need worry about a little Vitamin C (ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate), or some malted flour being in there.

Most commercial 'white' flour is bleached. That actually can make for a more extensible (less tear-prone) dough, but doesn't help the flavour (or colour) that many enthusiast home bakers are trying to optimise (or even maximise!)

Those apart, be rightly suspicious of the over-application of "food technology". But particularly cavalier use of old tech Bromate.

[mhjoseph]

I'm finding conflicting information...

I am trying to buy "bread flour" from a distributor.  He says he doesn't have "bread flour," but does have high protein flour.  Even in our esteemed eGullet forums I have now read that BF is both high and low protein.  Which is it?

←

If he's a good "distributor" he should have quite a wide range...

The flours used in the USA for bread are generally higher in protein content than the flours used for bread in, for example, France.

One can make "bread" with either, but not necessarily the same bread!

If you are wanting to make a light, fluffy, well risen loaf in a tin (for example for sandwiches), then you should be looking for a higher-than-average protein content, perhaps about 12+%. You don't need anything extreme (like 14% or more) - unless you want to see what it does, or perhaps to blend it with something more flavoursome. If, on the other hand, you were trying to make 'authentic' baguettes, then a particularly high protein content would not be what you were looking for in your flour.

Protein content is but one measurable quality of a flour. Its usually the most easily discoverable, but its by no means the only one. Most good bread books will devote several pages to the discussion of flours and their analysis, official gradings in different countries, testing methods and their interpretation.

Its also worth remarking that some flours sold retail as "breadmaking" (or bread machine) flour is stuffed with almost as many additives as a supermarket industrial loaf. Bromate in particular (still used within the USA) would seem worth avoiding on health grounds.

←

So what's the CIA referring to as bread flour for scones? I usually have in the house King Arthur Sir Galahad which is just under 12% and Sir Lancelot for making bagels which is around 14% protein. I've always used the Sir Galahad and got good results in my scone making. Now I'm tempted to try the higher protein flour now and see what happens.