Good coffee in Paris?

[menton1]

I am with Ptipois and John on coffee in Paris.  They are generally horrible because of the quality of the beans. 

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. About 99% of the coffee in the US sold outside is absolutely AWFUL. But that's what Americans like. Dunkin Donuts (UGH) coffee is actually thought of as high quality! Yes, there is good coffee to be had, especially in New York City, Pan, but in general the deli, cafe and restaurant variety coffee here is brutal.

Now in France, while not everywhere is great, the general level of coffee quality is about 50 times better than in the US IMHO. I guess it also boils down to how fussy one is, but since I live in the US, Parisian coffee is a welcome change for me.

[follonica2]

Menton1, I heartily agree with your respectful disagreement.

[Ptipois]

You can always find better or worse than anything.

I don't know about many other places but I know two things:

- As a general rule, coffee in Parisian cafés sucks. The robusta problem is a reality that cannot be overlooked.

- The best coffees I had in my life were in Italy and Singapore.

[touaregsand]

You can always find better or worse than anything.

I don't know about many other places but I know two things:

- As a general rule, coffee in Parisian cafés sucks. The robusta problem is a reality that cannot be overlooked.

- The best coffees I had in my life were in Italy and Singapore.

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For an idea of the quality of coffee in America Menton mentions, add a cup of hot water to a cup of coffee served in Parisian cafe and let it sit on a burner for about an hour.

[Ptipois]

For an idea of the quality of coffee in America Menton mentions, add a cup of hot water to a cup of coffee served in Parisian cafe and let it sit on a burner for about an hour.

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Oh, you can have that in France too. That's what they brew in offices in the morning.

[Bux]

I am with Ptipois and John on coffee in Paris.  They are generally horrible because of the quality of the beans. 

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. About 99% of the coffee in the US sold outside is absolutely AWFUL. But that's what Americans like. Dunkin Donuts (UGH) coffee is actually thought of as high quality! Yes, there is good coffee to be had, especially in New York City, Pan, but in general the deli, cafe and restaurant variety coffee here is brutal.

Now in France, while not everywhere is great, the general level of coffee quality is about 50 times better than in the US IMHO. I guess it also boils down to how fussy one is, but since I live in the US, Parisian coffee is a welcome change for me.

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I'd rather drink typical Parisian coffee than American coffee, but 50 times horrible may still be horrible.

[mzimbeck]

you'll be fine, they have starbucks now 

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Hehe, I agree with this...

My personal advice about coffee in France (and in Paris in particular) would be to pick coffee-oriented chains like Illy or Segafreddo, or places like Café de Colombie, where you'll be served only pure arabica coffee. We French have a problem with our coffee supply. Most of what you get in "troquets" (average cafes and brasseries) is brewed from robusta beans, because of our privileged commercial relationships with our former African colonies (Ivory Coast, Cameroun) that grow mostly robusta. This is a unique situation ; most European countries (with a stress on Italy) and America prefer arabica. Now, though some robustas may be drinkable, most of the time they're terribly bitter, acidic and rich in caffeine. This accounts for the characteristic (and, to me, horrid) taste of the French "petit noir". And when the espresso machine isn't properly maintained, the taste is even worse.

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Thanks so much for this explanation! I've been living and drinking coffee in Paris for a year and until now couldn't understand why the coffee here is so bitter. It's not terrible, mind you, but the difference between French and Italian coffee drinks is significant.

And to respond to a comment about the quality of dairy products in France - I agree that the "high-end" milk (that you buy from a cheese/dairy shop, for example) is vastly superior to anything available in the US, but most of the troquets that ptipois mentions are using non-refrigerated chalky "milk" to make their cafe cremes, and the taste is nothing special.

It's true that low-end (folgers, dunkin donuts) American coffee is nothing to brag about, but I find myself missing almost daily the kind of coffee I was able to get back in the States. A well-trained barista armed with good beans and milk and using a clean machine.....oh, how I miss it.

I'm convinced, in fact, that the absence of decent coffee has driven many upstanding Parisians, including me, to increase their consumption of red wine and other alcoholic beverages. It's a terrible fate. Really.

[Vinotas]

I love good espresso. I love France. I love having good espresso in France.

But it is amazingly difficult to find, to the point where I feel like one of the Knights of the Round Table in search of the Holy Grail (or, in this case, the Holy Ground).

Why is this? Why is it that in a nation that makes such beautiful wines, such luscious foods, and has such an appreciation for la joie de vie, it is so difficult to find a decent cup of espresso?

This has perplexed me for years, yet after another month of drinking espressos after lunch/dinner, I can only recall 2 that made me sit up and say "aaaahhh". Oh, let's not forget the ones I made at my rented apartment in Beaune, those were good. But most of the restaurant espressos were shameful, sad, limpid expressions of a great drink.

I see the correct beans being used (Arabica), yet what comes out is a watery, burned and abused shot.

POURQUOI??????

[Stephanie Wallace]

I second this. I mean... WTF!!? I searched and searched in Paris and surrounding region and found nothing. Got excited about a place that had single origin options, and was horrified to see the open "coffee packets" on the tray as the waitress arrived.

[jayt90]

You're hoping for something that does not exist. Good flavoursome coffee comes from a press or a Chemex, fresh medium roast and grind,at 200F.

[Ptipois]

Because*:

- Espresso comes from coffee machines in cafés; those coffee machines are rarely well maintained. Water in Paris is very chalky. The method argument is not quite valid since Italians can make superior coffee through those machines.

- The very underestimated power of habit: French espresso has always been piss, so people are used to piss, which is why they stomach it without winking. Some even describe it as "good coffee", honest!

- The main explanation: it's all because of la Françafrique, in this case "privileged" (means "low-price") commercial relationships with former African colonies (mainly the Ivory Coast) that grow only robusta coffee but grow masses of it. France is, as far as I'm informed, one of the rare countries in the world where the daily coffee is mostly robusta. Robusta, in its usual expressions, is coarse, very rich in caffeine, very productive and easy to grow. While arabica has more aroma, less caffeine, but is also less productive. (Some robustas, grown in Indonesia, are good, but they're part of a quite different deal and are grown differently.)

- Therefore troquet (café) coffee in France is mostly robusta. Adding insult to injury, it is also invariably over-roasted, to a point of darkness that makes it pukeningly bitter and enhances its vinegary, rotten-fruit sourness.

- Not only is it over-roasted, it is also brewed much too hot. Adding more misery to something that already has enough.

- And not only is it over-roasted and brewed too hot, it is also brewed much too concentrated and too strong. Some people (not just café owners) give you morning coffee so dark and opaque that it is almost syrupy and makes your heart palpitate in minutes. I don't understand how they can swallow that.

- When, interviewing a coffee specialist for Saveurs I asked him why French cafetiers were still depending so much on over-roasted, over-scalded, cheap robusta, he told me that getting enough mousse (foam) on the surface of the cup was the main objective. Every other characteristic of the coffee was irrelevant for them. And robusta makes a lot of dense, thick foam. So we're not out of trouble any time soon.

- In order to avoid any undesirable jealousy from perfectly respectable arabicas, many French restaurant owners and chefs (and that includes one, two or three-starred chefs) regularly make sure they give them the very same treatment as is given to plebeian robusta in troquets: overroasting, brewing too hot and making them taste like donkey piss.

Such is the tragedy of French coffee.

(*Summarized from my replies in a thread of long ago.)

Edited August 7, 2007 by Ptipois (log)

[Dave Hatfield]

Because*:

- Espresso comes from coffee machines in cafés; those coffee machines are rarely well maintained. Water in Paris is very chalky. The method argument is not quite valid since Italians can make superior coffee through those machines.

- The very underestimated power of habit: French espresso has always been piss, so people are used to piss, which is why they stomach it without winking. Some even describe it as "good coffee", honest!

- The main explanation: it's all because of la Françafrique, in this case "privileged" (means "low-price") commercial relationships with former African colonies (mainly the Ivory Coast) that grow only robusta coffee but grow masses of it. France is, as far as I'm informed, one of the rare countries in the world where the daily coffee is mostly robusta. Robusta, in its usual expressions, is coarse, very rich in caffeine, very productive and easy to grow. While arabica has more aroma, less caffeine, but is also less productive. (Some robustas, grown in Indonesia, are good, but they're part of a quite different deal and are grown differently.)

- Therefore troquet (café) coffee in France is mostly robusta. Adding insult to injury, it is also invariably over-roasted, to a point of darkness that makes it pukeningly bitter and enhances its vinegary, rotten-fruit sourness.

- Not only is it over-roasted, it is also brewed much too hot. Adding more misery to something that already has enough.

- And not only is it over-roasted and brewed too hot, it is also brewed much too concentrated and too strong. Some people (not just café owners) give you morning coffee so dark and opaque that it is almost syrupy and makes your heart palpitate in minutes. I don't understand how they can swallow that.

- When, interviewing a coffee specialist for Saveurs I asked him why French cafetiers were still depending so much on over-roasted, over-scalded, cheap robusta, he told me that getting enough mousse (foam) on the surface of the cup was the main objective. Every other characteristic of the coffee was irrelevant for them. And robusta makes a lot of dense, thick foam. So we're not out of trouble any time soon.

- In order to avoid any undesirable jealousy from perfectly respectable arabicas, many French restaurant owners and chefs (and that includes one, two or three-starred chefs) regularly make sure they give them the very same treatment as is given to plebeian robusta in troquets: overroasting, brewing too hot and making them taste like donkey piss.

Such is the tragedy of French coffee.

(*Summarized from my replies in a thread of long ago.)

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Why don't you tell us how you really feel about French coffee. Don't hold back this time!

[John Talbott]

(*Summarized from my replies in a thread of long ago.)

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Host's Note

To make sure all the fascinating info on this subject is available, I've merged prior topics into this.

[Vinotas]

Because*:

- Espresso comes from coffee machines in cafés; those coffee machines are rarely well maintained. Water in Paris is very chalky. The method argument is not quite valid since Italians can make superior coffee through those machines.

- The very underestimated power of habit: French espresso has always been piss, so people are used to piss, which is why they stomach it without winking. Some even describe it as "good coffee", honest!

- The main explanation: it's all because of la Françafrique, in this case "privileged" (means "low-price") commercial relationships with former African colonies (mainly the Ivory Coast) that grow only robusta coffee but grow masses of it. France is, as far as I'm informed, one of the rare countries in the world where the daily coffee is mostly robusta. Robusta, in its usual expressions, is coarse, very rich in caffeine, very productive and easy to grow. While arabica has more aroma, less caffeine, but is also less productive. (Some robustas, grown in Indonesia, are good, but they're part of a quite different deal and are grown differently.)

- Therefore troquet (café) coffee in France is mostly robusta. Adding insult to injury, it is also invariably over-roasted, to a point of darkness that makes it pukeningly bitter and enhances its vinegary, rotten-fruit sourness.

- Not only is it over-roasted, it is also brewed much too hot. Adding more misery to something that already has enough.

- And not only is it over-roasted and brewed too hot, it is also brewed much too concentrated and too strong. Some people (not just café owners) give you morning coffee so dark and opaque that it is almost syrupy and makes your heart palpitate in minutes. I don't understand how they can swallow that.

- When, interviewing a coffee specialist for Saveurs I asked him why French cafetiers were still depending so much on over-roasted, over-scalded, cheap robusta, he told me that getting enough mousse (foam) on the surface of the cup was the main objective. Every other characteristic of the coffee was irrelevant for them. And robusta makes a lot of dense, thick foam. So we're not out of trouble any time soon.

- In order to avoid any undesirable jealousy from perfectly respectable arabicas, many French restaurant owners and chefs (and that includes one, two or three-starred chefs) regularly make sure they give them the very same treatment as is given to plebeian robusta in troquets: overroasting, brewing too hot and making them taste like donkey piss.

Such is the tragedy of French coffee.

(*Summarized from my replies in a thread of long ago.)

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Wow.

Thanks for all the info, this explains a lot. There are a few places in Paris where the coffee is decent (I usually stay near the Arc de Triomphe, so I hit l'Arc and the small patisserie across the street from it on Blvd Carnot), but for the most part it's swill.

Whenever I can get my hands on an apartment with an espresso machine, I run out and buy some good coffee from a roaster.

It is amazing to me, but it does explain Charbux success recently in Paris.

Sigh...

What a shame...

[David Lebovitz]

One of the best, and perhaps most authentic, cups of espresso I've had in Paris was at the panini shop on the rue Montorgueil (at, or around, #36...almost across from Charles Chocolate).

You don't need to have a panini, although they're pretty good, and you can just go up to the tiny counter and have a quick coffee (although I might not go during the lunch rush.)

The guys there are Italian and their espresso is quite good.

Other good places to try at Molongo (50 rue St. André des Arts), and Espressamente, the Illy-owned store (13, rue Auber), adjacent to the Opéra Garnier.

Edited August 7, 2007 by David Lebovitz (log)

[Ptipois]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel about French coffee. Don't hold back this time! 

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I'd have thought my opinion on French coffee was crystal clear...

However:

- All coffees at Verlet (rue Saint-Honoré, near Palais-Royal) are excellent.

- La Grande Epicerie du Bon Marché has a lightly roasted Mexican Liquidambar maragogype that is very good.

- Brûleries have good stuff and some restaurants really care about coffee. But IMO they are by no means the majority.

[Dave Hatfield]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel about French coffee. Don't hold back this time! 

←

I'd have thought my opinion on French coffee was crystal clear...

However:

- All coffees at Verlet (rue Saint-Honoré, near Palais-Royal) are excellent.

- La Grande Epicerie du Bon Marché has a lightly roasted Mexican Liquidambar maragogype that is very good.

- Brûleries have good stuff and some restaurants really care about coffee. But IMO they are by no means the majority.

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Ptipois - You were crystal clear. My comment was a somewhat feeble attempt at American humor. Must be losing my touch.

Guess I've drunk too much French coffee. Or, maybe, even worse I drank too much American coffee before I emigrated. Who knows, but IMHO American coffee makes French look good.

[Vinotas]

I just want to say a big merci to everyone who's weighed in, I can't wait to try the places mentioned on my next trip to Paris. It will be so refreshing to have good coffee for once!

It really is mind-boggling that a culture that embraces good wine, good food and a relatively relaxed joie de vivre can be so lackadaisacal about its coffee.

Sigh...

[Ptipois]

I just want to say a big merci to everyone who's weighed in, I can't wait to try the places mentioned on my next trip to Paris.  It will be so refreshing to have good coffee for once!

It really is mind-boggling that a culture that embraces good wine, good food and a relatively relaxed joie de vivre can be so lackadaisacal about its coffee.

Sigh...

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I think this is due to the foreign origin of the ingredient and to its relatively recent introduction into Europe. The fact that the French "embrace good food, good wine", etc., is due to historical and above all geographical reasons, not to genetical dispositions. There is no natural reason why the French should do well with coffee while there is every historical and colonial reason why they should do badly.

Quite unlike the Italians, whose initiation to Ethiopian mochas and Northeast African ways with coffee yielded different results.

Another good coffee address in Paris:

Ethiopian restaurant Ménélik, 4, rue Sauffroy in the 17e (métro Brochant) tel. 01 46 27 00 82, has a coffee ceremony every Friday and Saturday night at 10:45 PM, in the late stages of the dinner service. Green Ethiopian coffee is roasted directly in the dining room on a portable brasero by the owner's two daughters, then quickly brewed and served to all the customers. The fragrance is incredible and the resulting brew is some of the best coffee one can taste. The restaurant is quite good, too.