Convince me that London has great dining!

[chrisnorth]

I'm a native New Yorker recently moved to London, and have been consistently disappointed by London restaurants -- so much so that I have almost given up going out to eat. (Good for the wallet but not for culinary happiness.)

What London restaurants will convince me that I'm mistaken? Would be equally happy with the diviest place or formal 3-star Michelin dining -- as long as the result is a great meal that is worth the price.

In the desperate hope that someone will tell me what I’ve been doing wrong, I detail my dining experiences so far below.

What I’d really like to know is:

1. Where are one or two places where one can have a absolutely first-rate, special meal – the sort of meal you’ll remember for years? The places that it would be a shame not to have visisted?

2. Where are some good places for everyday dining – reliably very good and good value?

3. What inexpensive ethnic restaurants are worth the effort to hunt them down? Especially interested in South and South-East Asian food.

4. Finally, any opinions on these places that have been highly recommended: St. Johns, Moro, Locanda Locatelli, New Tayyab, Rules, Nahm, Hakkasan, Tamarind, Chutney Mary, Chez Bruce, La Trompette, Rasa, Quilon, Sagar.

Many thanks in advance.

Chris

The only really first-rate meal I've had in London so far was at Clarke’s in Kensington. Think a British version of Chez Panisse and you’ll get the picture. The appetizer (there is no choice of dishes at Clarke’s – there’s one menu, take it or leave it – though I think you do get to choose whether or not you want a cheese course) was the second-best salad I’ve ever had (the first-best being at the original Bouley back in the early 90’s), with rocket and other assorted bitter greens, the more flavorful mozzarella you can imagine, toasted walnuts, fresh figs, and a balsamic (really first rate balsamic) vinaigrette. The main and cheese were very good though not at the same level, and dessert disappointing. Important note if you’re thinking of going: demand to sit in the main (ground floor) dining room; the basement dining rooms are really not terribly nice.

I think my favorite everyday place in London so far is must be the Electric Brasserie, which is very much on the lines of Balthazar and Pastis but with better food and a more enjoyable atmosphere. I eat here regularly and generally find it good value for the quality.

Enjoyed the River Café but found it a little expensive for what it was (luckily it was a business lunch). I remember a really good tagliatelle though, and the setting on the river is of course lovely. For very inexpensive Italian, I was surprised at how good the Carluccio’s chain is. The main Neal Street is good but (yet again) expensive for what it is (especially the wine list), though I might go back for the mushrooms. Casale Franco was a pretty good local Italian in Islington at a fair price.

Had a very nice meal at The Square, but the price was staggering (I think something like $125/person before wine) and the meal not special enough to justify it. Also we had excruciatingly slow service which resulted in us still being in the restaurant at 2am, one hour after everyone else had left – though we hadn’t ordered anything unusual. (I think our soufflés must have fallen on the first try.)

At the Burmese restaurant Mandalay on Edgeware Road we ate very good food at ludicrously cheap price – I think it came to £15/person including several courses and beer. Will definitely go back.

Found Busaba Eathai (several visits) to be good – but not spectacular -- Thai food at a very fair price. (There is always long queue but I've never waited more than 15 minutes -- note that couples get seats much more quickly than larger parties.) The wine list is pitiful, which is a shame as Thai food is an ideal opportunity to break out all the reasonably priced rieslings in the world. And the service is very rushed -- they don't try to hide the fact that they want to turn the tables over as quickly as possible. But I’ll still go back given the good value. In contrast, I’ve found the Wagamama chain quite mediocre. Churchill Arms is apparently famous for its Thai food – I think more for the unbelievably low price (£5 per dish or something like that) and the amusing juxtaposition of Thai food and traditional British pub than for any spectacular quality, based on my one meal there.

Club Gascon was really underwhelming, and one of the biggest disappointments so far (versus expectations). The décor – and the food – just try too hard. Several of our dishes were very good, several not impressive at all. The wine list is impressive in its coverage of the South-West of France, and is one of the only reasonably priced winelists I’ve seen in London – but unfortunately the staff (both our waiter and the sommelier) were not very knowledgeable.

Le Caprice at Arlington House is apparently a local favorite, but I don’t see what the fuss is about. Comfortable brasserie food of varying quality in a cozy setting, but at quite a premium.

Of the Indian places we’ve tried, Red Fort has been by a long way the best (again several visits) – but it’s quite expensive and on the chi-chi side. Vama was a huge disappointment; nothing was great, and several dishes were almost inedible, though the service is quite friendly. Star of India in South Ken has really slipped from what it was 5-6 years ago, though you can still get a decent meal. A colleague took me to a staggeringly expensive Indian restaurant (have forgotten the name) in a little townhouse on a side street off of Sloan Square that was pretty good (and had an impressive wine list) but at a steep price. I would love to find great Indian food at a decent price – it must be possible in London!

The Cow is a perfectly respectable gastropub, but with dinner for two (cheapest bottle of wine on the list, shared appetizer, no dessert or coffee) at £70 a bit steep for what it is. I must say that I don't understand why this is such a highly touted restaurant.

Eight over Eight was good Asian fusion in a very slick setting. Very good wine list. Nothing particularly memorable though, and you pay for the privilege of eating in a room with so many attractive people.

I had high hopes for Racine after it won Time Out’s 2003 “best new restaurant” award. In the end it was a pleasant and authentic French bistro – but not better than what you could find in any neighborhood in Paris at 1/3 the price.

La Trouvaille (Soho branch) on the other hand was a very nice meal for the price. I thought the winelist had a particularly good selection of regional wines. Definitely a place I'll return to. I've heard, by the way, that the Islington branch is not as good.

6 St Chads place is a smart new bar/restaurant in King’s Cross that has a very nice and affordable lunch. At night it is more about drinking than eating. In any case very welcome in the neighborhood.

Uli in Notting Hill came highly recommended – but the pan-Asian food was unremarkable (though inexpensive).

The long list of other places with expensive and unmemorable meals would include: Oscar (buzzing restaurant in Charlotte Hotel); OXO tower (high tourist quotient; impressive but expensive winelist); Teca (Italian in Mayfair primarily frequented by investment bankers – ridiculous markup on wine); and many, many more.

[Gary Marshall]

sounds like you've been reading the wrong guides/listening to the wrong people!

have a look at 'favourites for the year' thread you'll find quite a few places that might interest you.

at the high end putney bridge, the greenhouse, chez bruce are well liked, gordon ramsay royal hospital road should be tried as a barometer and tom aikens has its fans for starters.

at the cheaper end new tayabbs is good, as is angel mangal for turkish kebabs.

no doubt like your native city, london is full of poor, expensive restaurants but there are a few gems.

best to have a dig around here, there's no easy answer as to what will blow you away - other than getting out of london and trying anthony's, hibiscus, star at harome etc .ha ha

cheers

gary

[Matthew Grant]

I can only second what Gary says about reading the wrong guides and to try the 2004 favourites thread!

For High end dining try The Greenhouse, Rasoi Vineet Bhatia (high end Indian), Putney Bridge.

For something a little more casual Chez Bruce is excellent.

[Winot]

Chris,

Is it possible that the weak dollar has affected your experience of London dining? You seem to have been to a number of places where you have enjoyed the food but felt the meal was poor value. I often have that experience in London, and I'm paid in pounds.

W.

[MobyP]

Chris,

welcome to London. We around these parts often get accused (by the Spanish, French, and Americans at last count, but really, we're not fussy, we'll take abuse from anyone) - for reasons unknown to me - of making insupportable pronouncements about the quality of London dining.

The simple truth is, although there's very good food to be had, we're simply not on the same level - for differing reasons - as New York or Paris. We simply don't have the same relationship to food as those places. Our culinary culture is an emerging one.

Our low end dining doesn't come close to being as extensive and interesting as New York. Our high end - I believe - isn't anywhere near being on the same level as Paris. Our mid and lower mid-range is growing more interesting - gastro pubs etc. Our upper-mid-range has some very qualified and talented hard-workers - Chez Bruce, Putney Bridge (I'll take their word for it, haven't had it myself), Thyme etc, but you can have a miss every now and then, despite the hits. I haven't found a great brasserie yet, but I live in hope. I've had a couple of great plates at Racine, but it's not on the same level as an institution as Balthasar.

For the most part, the high end tries too hard, and beyond it's ability. You can still have a superb meal at Ramsay, but it will never be in the same league as a meal at L'Ambroisie, or Gagnaire (two opposites, of course).

Aikens you should try for yourself. At least he's doing something different. The first meal I loved, the second felt obscure.

Aubergine, Petrus, The Square - well, they leave you with the sense of having spent a fair sum for some luxury ingredients moderately to well prepared - but to what end? Which is to say, the answer is in the question. If you have to ask it, then it's unanswerable.

There's some very good low and mid-range Asian food, but my sense still is of the best of it being up North.

I've had better Chinese food here than I've ever had in New York - but of course its regionality is different, and so a different approach as well.

[howardlong]

The simple truth is, although there's very good food to be had, we're simply not on the same level - for differing reasons - as New York or Paris. We simply don't have the same relationship to food as those places. Our culinary culture is an emerging one.

←

I agree. In my experience, London is a different market to New York.

For example, I was in New York last month for a friend on mine's fourtieth. There, I sampled Daniel (a Relais Gourmand), Soho House and Anthony Bourdain's Les Halles. I wouldn't say I was particularly blown over by any of them although they are generally well received by the locals.

Food definitely seemed much better value - although that was probably more to do with the exchange rate.

Strangely the expected high level of service I normally anticipate for the US was rare. Perhaps this is just a New York thing.

But there was something else missing that I just haven't been able to put my finger on.

Perhaps it was the whole way the personal service thing works here in the UK just wasn't happening in New York.

Perhaps it was the food: I always felt that no-one dared to do anything a little bit risque - for example, sweetbreads and pan fried foie gras were nowhere to be seen. Although the steak tartare at Les Halles was yummy - when the waiter felt he needed to say "You know that it is served raw, sir", I think that said it all.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that my limited comparison between New York and London showed New York to be worse, just different, and something for me to get used to.

Cheers, Howard

[Paula Jonvik]

The simple truth is, although there's very good food to be had, we're simply not on the same level - for differing reasons - as New York or Paris. We simply don't have the same relationship to food as those places. Our culinary culture is an emerging one.

←

I agree. In my experience, London is a different market to New York.

For example, I was in New York last month for a friend on mine's fourtieth. There, I sampled Daniel (a Relais Gourmand), Soho House and Anthony Bourdain's Les Halles. I wouldn't say I was particularly blown over by any of them although they are generally well received by the locals.

Food definitely seemed much better value - although that was probably more to do with the exchange rate.

Strangely the expected high level of service I normally anticipate for the US was rare. Perhaps this is just a New York thing.

But there was something else missing that I just haven't been able to put my finger on.

Perhaps it was the whole way the personal service thing works here in the UK just wasn't happening in New York.

Perhaps it was the food: I always felt that no-one dared to do anything a little bit risque - for example, sweetbreads and pan fried foie gras were nowhere to be seen. Although the steak tartare at Les Halles was yummy - when the waiter felt he needed to say "You know that it is served raw, sir", I think that said it all.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that my limited comparison between New York and London showed New York to be worse, just different, and something for me to get used to.

Cheers, Howard

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Nice to see you back on the boards Mr. Long! Where the devil have you been? I'll bet you have other dining adventures to share with us..... come now..... what did yopu dine upon for Christmas, hum?

[chrisnorth]

Thanks for the welcome and the helpful replies. I will definitely look at the other posts mentioned and check out a few of the restaurants you recommend.

Is it possible that the weak dollar has affected your experience of London dining? You seem to have been to a number of places where you have enjoyed the food but felt the meal was poor value.

There's no question that the exchange rate affects my perception of value. I'm paid in sterling but it's hard not to do the conversions (though I'm trying not to). But where I say a meal wasn't particularly good value, I mean that even at a more "normal" exchange rate of 1.5. Take The Cow, for example. That's the kind of place that I would visit regularly in my neighborhood in New York (I lived in the East Village for the last 10 years) and expect to pay $30/person for appetizer, main, and a glass of wine. A comparable meal at The Cow is around £30-35/person -- expensive enough to make me want to think about it.

The simple truth is, although there's very good food to be had, we're simply not on the same level - for differing reasons - as New York or Paris. We simply don't have the same relationship to food as those places. Our culinary culture is an emerging one.

I think there's something to that, but after five months I don't have enough experiece to say. My experience at Clarke's, and somewhat at the River Cafe, was of food with a real personality and philosophy behind it. My experience at The Square -- as MobyP said -- left me with "the sense of having spent a fair sum for some luxury ingredients moderately to well prepared".

sampled Daniel (a Relais Gourmand), Soho House and Anthony Bourdain's Les Halles. I wouldn't say I was particularly blown over by any of them although they are generally well received by the locals.

Daniel, yes. Soho House and Les Halles are not well received by the locals, I don't think. Les Halles has been a disaster ever since Bourdain became a celebrity, and frankly was never better than an okay bistro before that (I used to work nearby and eat there regularly).

What I'm gathering, in sum, is (a) I haven't been eating at the right places and will rectify that, (b) London dining is simply more expensive -- even at a normal exchange rate -- than equivalent dining in NY or Paris, and © there are (I suspect) fewer places at the top end that really warrant the huge expenditure.

One final question for the group before I leave off pestering all of you and start slogging through the boards as I should have done in the first place. Is there a restaurant guide or a particular reviewer you find reliable? I've found Zagat's in London to be substantially less reliable than the NY version (which isn't particularly good, but has some value); and Time Out isn't doing anything for me except for some of the low-end ethnic restaurants.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Cheers,

Chris

[Suzi Edwards]

One final question for the group before I leave off pestering all of you and start slogging through the boards as I should have done in the first place.  Is there a restaurant guide or a particular reviewer you find reliable?  I've found Zagat's in London to be substantially less reliable than the NY version (which isn't particularly good, but has some value); and Time Out isn't doing anything for me except for some of the low-end ethnic restaurants.

←

You should find some good advice on here :-) You might especially want to read the Media Roundup on a weekly basis (yep, this week's is late again, I'll do it after the Big Cat programme on BBC1) Of the UK newspaper reviewers I find Jay Rayner (Observer)and Giles Coren (The Times) to be reliable, but Coren seems to be moving down the AA Gill route and it's becoming more about him and less about the food at the moment. Terry Durack (The Independent) has really grown on me, Jan Moir (The Telegraph) has started to grate but that's probably just a personal preference. AA Gill (Sunday Times and Victor Lewis Smith (Guardian) both have threads on here that you might want to check out. There's also Marina O'Loughlin and Fay Mashler in The Evening Standard who are very reliable for London but you have to pay for the online content This is London

Zagat is meaningless in the UK but the Time Out Guide to Eating and Drinking is invaluable, although much, much stronger for ethinic food. The only reason I haven't cancelled my subscription to the mag is that I do find their food coverage useful when it comes to new openings. They, oddly enough, seem to me to often have the first review of new places.

[alexhills]

i too have just moved (back) to London after 6 years in California - most recently in san francisco. i've spent most of my summers in the Uk though, so I've been able to compare the food scenes decently. In general the gap seems the greatest at the low end to me. The difference between a £4 kebab here in Finsbury park and a $4 burrito in the Mission in SF is pretty horrific. In mid and upper end places I tend to expect to pay in pounds what I would in dollars... sigh.... In terms of types of food, good cheap Latin American of all types seems pretty much totally lacking in London to me, although the void is somewhat made up by the better cheap Turkish places - try the Mangal Ockabasi on Arcola Rd. just off Stoke Newington High St. AMAZING grilled meats.

the 2 most quintessentially London meals I've had have been at Clarke's too, a few years back, and St. John. I agree totally about the idea of a restaurant having a defined philosophy, and they both exemplify that, and very original to go with it. I've not eaten at many of the more orthodox haute cuisine places, although I had a very nice meal at Morgan M and that's also one of the most affordable tasting menus in London. In terms of midrange places, i've enjoyed the Anchor and Hope, although it is very much a baby St. John, and Andrew Edmunds in Soho, also both quite 'London', whatever that means, places.

After mostly complaining about London food, one thing I'm very happy to get back to - specialist butchers and fishmongers, which were awfully hard ot come by in California. Wonderful wonderful raid on Steve Hatt for seabass and oysters last night...

[fisherman]

far be it from me to suggest that the best dining in the UK is miles away from london............

[Suzi Edwards]

I'm intrigued, which UK city has better dining than London?

Think really carefully before you answer that because you will be required to back it up! Name me a city that has the depth and breadth of the London dining scene, the panopoly of ethnic cuisines, the range at both high and low end.

Go on. Please.

[slacker]

Think about the community you have in London...

Bloody annoying thing is that I had a good point to make, but it got lost in the ether. xxx

Here's to sobriety.

[magnolia]

good cheap Latin American of all types seems pretty much totally lacking in London

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In my limited experience, I'd venture to say the only really distinctive, desirable "Latin American" cuisine in general - one with with a historical context, lots of variations and major regional differences - is Mexican, and in London, there's not a single decent specimen at any price. Gaucho Grill is a good steakhouse but it's not particularly distinctive for any other region; and the only interesting "pan-Latin American" place I can think of is Armadillo.

[Suzi Edwards]

The taco bar downstairs in Destino on Swallow Street off Regent Street is a reliable shopping stop for me. Best Mexican I've had in London (which admittedly isn't saying a huge amount)

[alexhills]

Although Mexican is definitely a big part of what I meant when talking about Latin American food - and i'll try the tacqueria you suggested tarka, although I fear I have been ridiculously spoiled living in pretty much burrito-central over the last few years - there are some other things well worth considering. Peruvian ceviche is simply one of the best things I've ever eaten, far superior to the mexican version, which tends to use diced fish and much less interesting seasoning. In the US this has spunoff into a kind of fusion movement called Nuevo Latino cooking, some of which is pretty fantastic. Right now I'd settle for a slightly greasy carne asada burrito with fresh avocado and very spicy green chili salsa any day. It costs less than a portion of bad fish and chips too....

[Suzi Edwards]

I had a not bad ceviche at Titos, a peruvian place just by London Bridge, was a while ago though.

[CheGuevara]

moby's comparison is in my opinion excellent. likewise i've had better chinese here than in NY. it's interesting nowhere on this thread sushi has come up, as across the range there is a stark comparison between london and NY, decidedly in favour of NY across the range.

st. john's is a fantastic restaurant, and so is it's sister st. john's bread and wine. there are plenty of threads on both. restaurants this good - best value for money - are scarce across the world. i haven't come across any in its league in NY.

had a marvelous meal at royal china the last time - in the evening (ie - no dim sum) worth saying my father and i told our waitress to choose the entire meal for us.

-che

[Suzi Edwards]

Interesting. I had a terrible, terrible meal at Royal China, but I'll take your lead should I go back. The dish I ordered off the smaller "specials" menu was delicious, clams in a spicy sauce. I rememebr thinking afterwards that that might have been the way to go for the whole meal.

[esthergalan]

As an ex-NYC resident (though originally from Virginia) I do miss the huge amount of choice in NYC. There is no doubt NYC has London beat hands down for variety and sheer volume of quality restaurants. I lived there during my salad days and I seem to remember that all the good inexpensive places in NY inevitably didn't take reservations and you had to stand outside on the street (with nose pressed against window sucking on your scarf) waiting to get in. Good, trendy places took ages to get a reservation and forget getting into somewhere in which Madonna had been spotted!

Quick couple additions for you to try in London that may or may not have been mentioned before:

Ginnan - great little Japanese place just off Farringdon Avenue (1-2 Rosebury Court). Have never had a bad meal. Prices are fair. Japanese pal says just like being in Tokyo. I really enjoyed food at Yauatcha, new place by same crew as did Hakasan. However, service there can be really dodgy! There is another Sushi in Soho that is supposed to be the bee’s knees . I can't find the darned name or address. If find will post. Supposed to be expensive but New Yorkers I know really rate it. Have also had recommendation of Kulu Kulu, 39 Thurloe Place, SW7 for good, inexpensive sushi. Have yet to try myself, though.

Have never had a bad meal at The Abingdon in Kensington (020 7937 3339). Great for everyday eating if you live in the area. Always lively and they knock up a pretty good cocktail. Very good service.

Moro, Exmouth Market - Others say they have had touch-and-go meals but I've always loved everything I've ever had there. Good mid-prices.

Brindisa has opened a tapas bar at Borough Market. Supposed to be very good.

Providores - New Zealanders on Marylebone High Street. (Same owners as Public in NYC). Always great, inventive food. Dining Room expensive for every day though you can get a quick bite quite reasonably in downstairs cafe.

The Eagle on Farringdon is a pub near the Guardian offices. No reservations or hostess so you have to be quick on your feet to get a table. But inexpensive and very good. Great place for weekend lunch.

If you can't get in there and really fancy a good corn beef hash I highly recommend Quality Chop House (020 7837 5093), which is virtually across the street. Hard benches, though, so your bum gets tired. But great, authentic London chop house.

Sweetings (020 7248 3062) - plenty written about it. Never been myself but would like to try as heard great - let me know if you need a dinner partner!

Randall & Aubin in Soho - great for a quick bite before/after movies. The music is LOUD - but you get used to it (Manager says keeps music high because makes people drink more. Personal experience confirms this.) Always have fun there. Food reliably good and mid-priced. Great spit roast chicken.

Real Greek Souvlaki & Bar (020 7253 7234) on St John Street - Not your usual Mom & Pop Greek joint. Mid-priced, very tasty Greek Food. You should feel at home there as a New Yorker as very urban interiors.

Next door is Cicada - sister restaurant to Eight over Eight and E&O. Have never eaten at Eight over Eight but have had numerous lovely meals at the other two restaurants. Good every day eatin'.

Baltic is an interesting Polish place in SE1. Reliable mid-priced food. (pricing is so subjective, isn't it?)

Gaudi (020 7608 3220). Wacky Spanish place with inventive food. Expensive. For more refined Spanish food try Fino in Chalotte Street.

Burgers: Black & Blue on Kensington Church Street or Gourmet Burger Kitchen all over town.

'nuff said about St John (my personal London favourite) though I would encourage you to go to St John Bread & Wine on Commercial Street for less expensive fare. For anyone who might have turned their noses up at Chitterlings (or Chitlin's as my fellow Southerners call 'em) in the past I can't recommend them enough. Oh my gosh the flavour is just... well, perfect. Am having a "pavlov's dog" moment just thinking about them! God Bless Fergus Henderson!!

I think I said I would be quick!

Esther

[chrisnorth]

I think I said I would be quick! 

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Wow, great reply. Thanks very much for the suggestions!

In my continued London dining saga I must withdraw my previously favorable comment about La Trouvaille after a thoroughly medoicre and frustrating meal there on Friday night.

I had a completely flavorless onion tart to start with, and a fairly insipid gigot of pork (I don't think you can call it gigot when it's pork, but I forget the term) served with an okay side of pureed purple cabbage.

My girlfriend did somewhat better: her starter of a salad of shredded radis noir (black radish) was really quite nice, exactly what you'd hope and expect to find in a good bistro. She had a pretty good fish dish as well as her main though I've forgotten what it was so it can't have been all that memorable.

The wine was a 2000 Domaine St Andrieu, “L’Yeuse Noire”, Coteaux du Languedoc. It wasn't bad but not worth the £32. Good blackberry fruit, a bit of garrigue, and a syrah-driven leathery element (this is a good thing in my book) with prominent but ripe/smooth tannis, but marred by a very odd finish, seemingly lacking in acidity; as the wine developed in the glass the various elements starting coming farther and farther apart to the point where it wasn't particularly nice after an hour of airing. Obviously not a good candidate for aging.

The real turn-off, though, was the horrible service. When we sat down the matire d'hotel came to our table to ask if we were going to have the pre-theatre menu. We told him that we were indeed going to the theatre but wanted to see the regular menu as well to consider all the options. He then launched into a lengthly and aggressive explanation about how we could only have (or even see, I think) the pre-theatre menu if we agreed to leave in at 7:30 (55 minutes later). (The restaurant was almost empty at that point, and only 1/2 full when we left around 7:30.) There then ensued a back-and-forth of us saying that we understood the limitation and would chose either the pre-theatre or a la carte menu accordingly -- and if the former, that we would finish by 7:30 -- and his insisting, with increasing stridency, that we had to be out of the restaurant by 7:30 (to the point that it sounded like he was threatening to throw us out).

Even that aside, the service was huffy and rushed, with many faults of service. E.g., trying to serve us bread four times even though we declined each time; not refilling wine glasses for a long period followed by snatching the bottle out of my hand when I tried to fill my girlfriend's glass; dumping a full medium-sized bottle of Badoit into our two glasses on the first pour and then immediately demanding if we wanted another bottle; complete ignorance of the winelist; etc.

(In retrospect the service was almost as bad on my first visit but the food and wine was much better so I cut them some slack.)

All in all I would only go back if I were in the neighborhood and very hungry and unable to think of any place better to eat.

Chris

[Suzi Edwards]

I think I said I would be quick! 

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The real turn-off, though, was the horrible service. When we sat down the matire d'hotel came to our table to ask if we were going to have the pre-theatre menu. We told him that we were indeed going to the theatre but wanted to see the regular menu as well to consider all the options. He then launched into a lengthly and aggressive explanation about how we could only have (or even see, I think) the pre-theatre menu if we agreed to leave in at 7:30 (55 minutes later). (The restaurant was almost empty at that point, and only 1/2 full when we left around 7:30.) There then ensued a back-and-forth of us saying that we understood the limitation and would chose either the pre-theatre or a la carte menu accordingly -- and if the former, that we would finish by 7:30 -- and his insisting, with increasing stridency, that we had to be out of the restaurant by 7:30 (to the point that it sounded like he was threatening to throw us out).

←

I was once barracaded into this branch of this restaurant by the maitre'd and the chef. This is not a restaurant that I would ever describe as having good service. The Islington branch is much better, or at least, they've never attempted to kidnap me.

I am not joking.

[chrisnorth]

Taking a cue from the many helpful suggestions in this thread – and making the leap of faith that the problem has been, as several of you have suggested, that I’ve been eating in the wrong restaurants until now -- my resolution for 2005 is to track down those hitherto elusive great meals in London.

A secondary resolution is to report back to you on my experiences, so you can see how your student is getting on.

Following many recommendations both from this group and from other sources – but mindful of the warnings of mixed experiences found in other threads – my girlfriend Sophie and I went to Moro this past Friday night. We had tried to go several other times before but had been unable to get a table (admittedly the prior attempts were mostly in the pre-Christmas madness—I was told in early December that the first available Friday night table was in mid-January!); I called just a week in advance and was able to get a 8:30 table for 2 on a Friday night.

To put ourselves in the right spirit for Andalucian cuisine, before leaving home we had a glass of (always excellent) Emilio Lustau sherry – in this case a dry amontillado.

Properly fortified, we arrived at the restaurant and were seated almost immediately. First impressions of the space were of a casual bistro-like ambiance, buzzing without being unpleasantly loud. We were at one of the two-tops along the right-hand banquette, which are fairly close together but not so much that you have to listen to your neighbor’s every word. (Some of the tables in the section closer to the kitchen seemed as though they might be uncomfortably intimate.) Décor neutral -- not particularly charismatic, but not offputting in any way either.

Our waiter (Croatian) was friendly and accommodating, though his knowledge of the menu and wine list was only middling.

Appetizers were all around £6.50, with mains running around £15-17; choice of about 5-6 in each course. Though other Moro posts on egullet warned that appetizers were better than mains, Sophie was set on the sea bass, and I always find it hard to pass on oxtail, so our original plan of making a meal of many appetizers was dropped.

The wine list was well chosen and, relative to most restaurants I’ve seen in London so far, featured a good selection of affordable wines (perhaps 10 in the £20-35 range). We chose a 1994 Rioja (am embarrassed to have forgotten the producer) which turned out to be a very traditional wine (a good thing); not a sophisticated wine by any means, but a hearty and a delicious wine at peak drinking. (At £45 not a great bargain, by the way, but still quite satisfying.)

Appetizers:

Sophie had the salt cod salad (being half Portuguese, she identified the salt cod used as identical to bacalhau, which is dried salt cod reconstituted in water). Small strips of salt cod, blood oranges, shaved fennel, rocket, and flat-leaf parsley in a vinaigrette. The main idea of the salad was to contrast the saltiness of the cod with the sweetness of the blood oranges, which was effective. We were both a little disappointed, though, finding that besides this contrast the salad lacked interest; in particular the fennel was not particularly flavorful, the vinaigrette too heavily applied and too oily (not enough vinegar). I thought what the dish really needed was more acidity, and perhaps another flavor element.

I started with chopped calf’s liver blended with “farika”, a grain which I'm tempted to say is wheatberry or something very close. This was fantastic—the liver was wonderfully rich and smoky, and the grains gave it a perfect chewiness and also cut the richness of the liver a bit. A perfect bistro dish. One small complaint is that the plating was quite dull—it was essentially just a blob of mixed liver and grains in the middle of a plain plate.

For her main, Sophie had a pan-seared sea bass with zest of Seville oranges, served with a pilaf of basmati rice. The sea bass was properly cooked but was really quite dull. The pilaf, on the other hand, was delicious, with parsley, onions, and cardamom – we fought over the last bites.

My oxtail was somewhat better—it was cooked perfectly, with incredibly tender (and of course fatty) meat falling off the bone, served in its own braising broth. The mashed potatoes were fine though not particularly memorable. Overall a tasty (and very rich) dish, though one that was essentially identical to good oxtail I’ve had in many other restaurants.

Overall, we enjoyed the meal, but found it less distinctive (less personality) that we had expected. The meal was a bit expensive relative to the quality (by the way, when I comment on the price/value relationship of a meal I am comparing to New York City, pretending that the £/$ exchange rate is around 1.5, which I consider to be a “normal” exchange rate – I still can’t think properly in £), even had we had a less expensive wine; but then again it was a better meal for the price than many others we’ve had in London.

Neither of us are in a great hurry to go back, though we certainly wouldn’t say no if friends suggested it for dinner.

Next Friday: St. John! (And then back to NY for a week, with dinner at Café Boulud on the menu …)

Chris

Edited January 16, 2005 by chrisnorth (log)

[chrisnorth]

A quick note (writing in NY from blizzard central!) to say that we had a really memorable meal at St. John on Friday night.

Fantastic terrine with a lot of personality—great texture and mix of flavours (especially the bits of liver). The justly famous bone marrow and parsley salad was superb; the parsley/red onion/capers/oil/lemon/sea salt would make a great salad in its own right, but was something really special juxtaposed against the rich and unctuous marrow.

Sophie’s mallard duck with red cabbage and sprout tops was perfectly prepared. Incredible flavour, and cooking the legs separately into a crispy confit was a brilliant idea that gave a nice context of texture. The sprout tops were out of this world.

My woodcock was just as good. Meat at just that perfect point just past bloody rare but before it loses any of its juices. It took me (okay, Sophie) a moment to realize that the pair of odd-looking pointy things on my plate was the head of the woodcock split in half along the beak, with a tiny morsel of brain exposed to be scooped out with a little spoon. Woodcock innards served on toast (our waitress explained that it was essentially the entire innards of the bird mixed up together) were very tasty but a little too rich for me by that point in the meal.

The service was friendly and efficient; our waitress gave knowledgeable answers to all of our questions.

The only black mark on an otherwise great experience was the wine list. I have rarely seen a list with suck a horrifying markup. Some examples:

2001 Chateau du Cedre “Le Cedre” £60 – can be found for £12-15 retail

1999 Pierre Amiot Clos de la Roche £95 – retail £22-25

1999 Michel Perraud “Sarah” £70 – retail £15-18

2001 Georges Vernay St Joseph £57 – retail £14-15

I understand that restaurants need to make money on wine service, but to pay 4-5 times retail is just offensive. We went instead for one of the least expensive wines on the list (by the glass), a perfectly nice Cotes de Roussillon from Domaine Boudau.

Chris

[Suzi Edwards]

LOL. I was in St John that night too and my table ate everything on the menu that you guys didn't have!

Howard Long last week, Chris this week. I'm in Leeds this weekend. Wonder which society members might cross my path there?