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The dumbing down of the Western Palate


Shalmanese

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I wonder, too, how many Italian (say) home cooks have an enormous range of recipes they cook for ordinary dinners. Isn't part of what a lot of people find so appealing about a lot of cuisines the very fact that they're so dedicated to tradition? What keeps those traditional foods traditional is, in part, a lack of interest in, as Jinmyo said, "anything beyond the already expected."

What an interesting point, Redfox. And I think exactly right.

Heather Johnson

In Good Thyme

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Shalmanese said:

"Not anyplace in this thread or even much on the board has the sentiment "These people might know about good food, they might even know exactly how to make it. But, making a rational decision, they choose Hamburger Helper all by themselves because they have different priorities from most egulleteers and they are simply making the most rational choice given their particular priorities."

Wouldn't those "different priorities" include  lifestyle, money, scheduling, availability of ingredients, ease of preparation, etc. - all of which have been discussed here?

No, those certainly can come into play, but that's also ignoring the fact that people, in general, have more money, more access to a wide variety of ingredients, good food has become cheaper when eating out or eating in and some choices, say, supermarket tomato vs vine ripened have nothing to do with time pressures.

Someone had to be the first person to buy Walmart pap bread instead of real bread from the local bakery and someone had to be the last person to switch over from bakery bread to Walmart pap before the bakery became uneconomical and shut down.

Now both of these people understood what real bread tasted like yet chose to go for the Walmart pap, My question is why? And, more importantly, does the reason you provide make sense if you scrutinize it carefully?

Shalmanese,

Your response to lala's post makes me wonder if you are bothering to read all of the posts in the thread. If you are, then we are reading two different threads.

All of the factors lala mentioned are parts of the answer to the question you ask at the end of the post that have been mentioned here.

Perhaps the one that hasn't been mentioned is that it's easier to buy at WalMart. You can buy your underwear and your Wonder bread in one place.

What exactly is it that you are trolling for?

Thank you JPW. It seems to me that Shalmanese is just upset because we don't agree with his simplistic statements. And trying to get this bunch of people to fall in line behind a single idea just isn't going to happen. It's sad, because he raised an interesting question that is generating a good discussion. He's just not interested in an actual discussion. He also seems to have some anger issues that don't necessarily have anything to do with this board.

Edited by lala (log)

“"When you wake up in the morning, Pooh," said Piglet at last, "what's the first thing you say to yourself?"

"What's for breakfast?" said Pooh. "What do you say, Piglet?"

"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?" said Piglet.

Pooh nodded thoughtfully.

"It's the same thing," he said.”

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Not anyplace in this thread or even much on the board has the sentiment "These people might know about good food, they might even know exactly how to make it. But, making a rational decision, they choose Hamburger Helper all by themselves because they have different priorities from most egulleteers and they are simply making the most rational choice given their particular priorities.

I am one of those people. As a full-time parent, I took my children to the country to pick fresh fruits and vegetables in farm fields, I taught them to garden and bake and cook "real" food, we ate in little ethnic restaurants together. They never ate store-bought cookies or drank Kool-Aid until they went to preschool where other kids brought those kinds of things for the morning snack. But things change. As the children grew, I took first freelance, then part-time, and finally full-time paid work. I had less time to devote to "real" food, so sometimes we had Kraft mac 'n' cheese for dinner. I made Hamburger Helper exactly once, though, because we just couldn't eat it. Now I cook on weekends because I want to, but on a regular working night, I may stop in for a sandwich at some fast food place or open a can of soup for supper. Yes, I know prepared stuff is not as healthy, tasty, whatever as stuff I can make at home, and as important as food is in my life, I am also involved in many other activities that take time and I cannot do everything every day. It's a matter of finding balance.

"It is a fact that he once made a tray of spanakopita using Pam rather than melted butter. Still, though, at least he tries." -- David Sedaris
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Then there were the Turkey Times such as Thanksgiving.

I have never encountered as narrow a bandwidth of interest in anything beyond the already expected as in at least some areas of the U.S.

Jinmyo, I hate to disagree with you but this is simply not true. As much as I like to complain about my countrymen, the one thing I do like about the US is the openness to many different ethnic cuisines. And I'm not talking only in big cities...in a "Heartland" town of 100,000 I can personally count 7 Korean places, 3 sushi places, two indian, at least 3 (real, non chain) mexican, at least one transcendantly good Italian place, 4 thai, 2 vietnamese, 2 middle eastern, the usual complement of chinese, good and bad....Some execute the cuisine better than others, but all these places are visited by both the recent immigrants and locals alike.

Try finding that in a town of 100,000 in europe, or the middle east, or heck, even asia.

That's great.

I lived for a time in the U.S. in Philadelphia and a few places in Florida but that was decades ago.

I'm glad to hear that things have broadened so.

And now that I think of it, Italian towns tend to be horrified by food from towns only twety miles away. :laugh:

edit:

Ahem. "Twenty".

Edited by Jinmyo (log)

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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I'll go out on a limb and posit a third explanation, one that has absolutely nothing to do with food. Americans love a bargain. They're willing to eat the tasteless dreck because it costs less.

i tend to agree with this. i see this disturbing trend among co-workers....they tend to value food by the pound over anythign else.

if you can get lots of it, it trumps any idea of flavor and quality.

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Yet another possibility: At its heart, America is a Puritan society. eGulleteers aside, I think many people are uncomfortable with pursuing the sensual pleasure of eating on a daily basis. It seems so...WRONG somehow to put food in your mouth that makes you moan with pleasure. Especially at lunch (it's DAYLIGHT, for God's sake.) Better to have an energy bar or a quickie at McDonald's and get back to work. Spending an hour or two eating great food a few times a day seems so...French. Hedonistic.

But yet, what is naughty interests us. Therefore, the Food Channel, cooking magazines, etc.

BTW, I of course have no idea whether this is even remotely accurate. I just know that I think eating is a sensual pleasure, and I do know that by and large, Americans are uncomfortable with sexuality. It seems plausible.

I think this is probably true of a certain segment of our country.

The reality is that we are such a diverse country that you can probably find support for every argument that's been advanced in this thread.

Thank God for tea! What would the world do without tea? How did it exist? I am glad I was not born before tea!

- Sydney Smith, English clergyman & essayist, 1771-1845

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I think Marie-Louise comes closest with her argument.

The climate of today's society (in the US) simply does not stress, and in some ways actually discourages, finding enjoyment in food. With the huge focus on health, having a perfect body, etc, etc pounding into everyone every day, eating can seem almost shameful. Thus, to lust after a meal, to eat for any other reason than to ingest the bare minimum number of calories needed for the day, is to be slovenly, lazy, and pathetic. We are a country obsessed with image, status, physical beauty, and seem to by ravenously hungry for the approval of total strangers. Since eating well does not directly promote any of those things, no wonder it falls by the wayside.

He don't mix meat and dairy,

He don't eat humble pie,

So sing a miserere

And hang the bastard high!

- Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche from Candide

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Interesting discussion. My personal experience is all I can comment on and that is this: I myself spend a great deal of time thinking about, finding and preparing food but our household is just two adults. My brothers on the other hand have growing families. All of us siblings grew up in a house where our mother prepared all of the food from scratch including our breads. We had a garden and fruit trees as well. Soda pop, dried cereal and such processed foods were not part of our lives.

My brothers do all of the cooking that happens in their households from breakfasts, school lunches and dinners. Both of my sister-in-laws are busy professionals and come from the "food is fuel" school of thought as opposed to "food as pleasure, passion or spiritual" school that many eGulleters do. As a result there has been a compromise in food areas which I wouldn't consider as they buy and use food products with an eye to convenience, economy of time and cost. The family activities are centered around school, church and community - not food. This is a choice they have made and which I cannot fault though it took me some time to accept that this is was a conscious choice they made.

"Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." TMJ Jr. R.I.P.

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Yet another possibility: At its heart, America is a Puritan society. eGulleteers aside, I think many people are uncomfortable with pursuing the sensual pleasure of eating on a daily basis. It seems so...WRONG somehow to put food in your mouth that makes you moan with pleasure. Especially at lunch (it's DAYLIGHT, for God's sake.) Better to have an energy bar or a quickie at McDonald's and get back to work. Spending an hour or two eating great food a few times a day seems so...French. Hedonistic.

But yet, what is naughty interests us. Therefore, the Food Channel, cooking magazines, etc.

I agree there may be an element of that in the Food Network viewership. I've noticed that many of the ads on Food Network are for convenience foods that I'm not interested in--Uncle Ben's Flavorful Rice and Good Seasons Ranch Dressing, to name a couple off the top of my head. It always seemed odd to have those juxtaposed with a show involving, say, a fruitcake made from scratch, (including shelling the pecans and grinding the spices). If the ad execs are properly targeting these ads, it means that a sizeable portion of Food TV's audience may be watching for fantasy/entertainment value, but sticking with convenience foods for even the most basic things to make.

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Since this seems to be such a hopping thread, I thought I'd throw my two cents in as well.

Some people were saying that they think the fast and convenient food are the norm in American culture now - and I'd tend to agree, based on what I've seen. I've been blessed by being able to be influenced by two cultures in my life, American and Canadian (and yes, they are two different cultures!), and whenever I go grocery shopping down in the US, I am constantly horrified at the crap on the shelves. Now, before anyone gets offended by that, the food is filtering up to Canada as well, so I think as life gets busier and things get more hectic, more and more North American families are choosing to cut corners. It's just coming up here at a slower pace.

Also, I find people who don't like to cook will cut corners. My sister is a stay at home Mom (arguably the hardest job in the world) and HATES to cook. So even though she might have more time to cook (she at least tells me she does) she hates to do it, so she'll rely on prepped food to feed her family.

It was like the other day, my mother (who usually doesn't cook that much) made homemade mac and cheese for my niece. My 4 year old niece took one bite and said "Grandma, this is good, but next time can we have the stuff out of the blue box? It's my favorite!" :blink: I nearly fell out of my chair...

The funny thing is, this is the same girl who prefers to make food with Aunt Fifi (that's what I'm called :laugh: ) because she makes stuff from scratch. She constantly tells my sister, "That's not how you make cookies! They don't come from a box!". And she's now addicted to Food Network, but that's a whole other story. :raz:

However, I think if people are taught that good, healthy food can be prepared freshly and fastly and it even tastes good, the thought processes might change (at least a little). When I took a "Home Economics" class in high school (at a private school), the class itself was a joke. Even then in high school, I knew more about cooking and preparing food than the teacher did. In fact, it got to the point she was asking me so many questions, it was like I was teaching the class. (On my report card, the teacher wrote "Thank god I had Meg in our class! She was a real asset with her extensive knowledge!" :rolleyes: )

I think it's just that we as a society are not educated enough (or don't want to be educated) about food... thank god I had a mother who, herself didn't like to cook, but knew a great deal about food and cooking. Once she found out that I liked to cook she encouraged me to do it whenever I wanted, but I always had to use fresh foods and make things from scratch. She created the stickler that I am! :laugh:

Lastly, my husband is walking talking proof of the above statement. His mother hated to cook and worked full-time, so make everything from a pre-packaged mix or box. When we got married and I started cooking my way, he was shocked. (Vegetables aren't supposed to be soggy, lifeless with no color?) And now, he loves fresh, healthy food. It's because he had never been exposed to "real" food or even other cuisines... just good old Canadian food! :raz:

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One more variable.

Americans love variety....

I expect the typical home cook in 1910 could survive a decade or two knowing maybe 30 or 50 recipes.  I'll bet I use that many in a month.

I'd disagree.

I think that Americans love the already known.

When I lived in the U.S. most of the people that I knew cooked perhaps ten things (not counting items such as toast). Ten menus. Which they repeated week after week interspersed with take away and ready mades. Then there were the Turkey Times such as Thanksgiving.

I have never encountered as narrow a bandwidth of interest in anything beyond the already expected as in at least some areas of the U.S.

Jinmyo is right.

I can never understand the interest of the public in high gloss Cook Books.

Nine out of ten are simply bought for Jacket Picture.

Possibly two recipes will ever be used out of them.

Besides, none of those are really "Cookbooks", as they do not teach anyone to "cook", and most Americans now do not really know how to "cook".

They can read, assemble and 'fire-up' and then call it a meal, and 'think/believe' this was the best ever eaten since Mom's Tuna Casserole.

Somewhere else in this post someone mentions 'Heartland', and a city of 100,000 having quite a few ethnic Restaurants. That may be true for that city, but take the CAPITAL city of AUGUSTA/MAINE (23,000), not a single Restaurant to mention, except more than three so called 'Chinese' with a lot of Rice and 'Chop Suey' (the American Chinese).

And yes 'eating' for me is part of 'my culture'. It does not have to be expensive. Everyone thinks, good food (mistakenly known in the US as "Gourmet") IS expensive. Not necessarily so, well tasting meals can be prepared with inexpensive ingredients. But that again requires the knowledge of 'cooking', and who knows it?

I simply can not understand why there are "Gourmet Isles" in Markets, when the shelved products are nothing out of the ordinary, except some may be 'imported'.

Speak to me, people, please.

I stand corrected, as always.

Peter
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I'd disagree.

I think that Americans love the already known.

When I lived in the U.S. most of the people that I knew cooked perhaps ten things (not counting items such as toast). Ten menus. Which they repeated week after week interspersed with take away and ready mades. Then there were the Turkey Times such as Thanksgiving.

I have never encountered as narrow a bandwidth of interest in anything beyond the already expected as in at least some areas of the U.S.

Jinmyo is right.

I can never understand the interest of the public in high gloss Cook Books.

Nine out of ten are simply bought for Jacket Picture.

Possibly two recipes will ever be used out of them.

Besides, none of those are really "Cookbooks", as they do not teach anyone to "cook", and most Americans now do not really know how to "cook".

They can read, assemble and 'fire-up' and then call it a meal, and 'think/believe' this was the best ever eaten since Mom's Tuna Casserole.

I suspect that if a cookbook were ever to be produced that explains in lay terms the basic tastes (four or five, depending on whether you count unami) and how they interact, or what happens when heat is applied or flavors blend when chilling in the refrigerator, either (1) the author would be a professor of chemistry* or (2) it would sell about 100 copies.

That old American fave, Joy of Cooking, actually does a somewhat decent job of explaining much of this in the chapters "The Foods We Eat," "The Foods We Heat" and "Know Your Ingredients." Wonder how many of us take the time to read these chapters in full? (I know I haven't.)

*One of the funniest things I've ever seen was an article on Bearnaise sauce in a peer-reviewed journal of biochemistry.

And yes 'eating' for me is part of 'my culture'. It does not have to be expensive. Everyone thinks, good food (mistakenly known in the US as "Gourmet") IS expensive. Not necessarily so, well tasting meals can be prepared with inexpensive ingredients. But that again requires the knowledge of 'cooking', and who knows it?

I simply can not understand why there are "Gourmet Isles" in Markets, when the shelved products are nothing out of the ordinary, except some may be 'imported'.

Speak to me, people, please.

I stand corrected, as always.

My guess is that people do want to feel that they are eating something out of the ordinary, something a little better than what they're used to, at home from time to time, and these products cater to that desire. I used to refer to this section as "the Knorr section" because all the products made by that Swiss food manufacturer (acquired by Corn Products Company, now Bestfoods, in the late 1960s, IIRC) were usually located in a highly visible spot there.

They certainly share one major characteristic of all processed food, which is that it would certainly taste better if you made it yourself from scratch using good quality ingredients. But making a good Hollandaise sauce is tricky even with a blender, and most of us in the US don't (seem to) have the level of skill, confidence or both to want to try that. (Making lump-free gravy really isn't all that difficult, but lots of people seem to have either no ability or no desire to do this, either.). But they often offer taste sensations or ingredients that aren't (or weren't) found in the mainstream brands. (Seen any cans of Campbell's condensed hot and sour soup? I didn't think so. I have prepared a packet of Knorr dry hot and sour soupmix. It was on the bland side, and a bit thin even after adding the egg listed as an optional ingredient. But it was still recognizably hot and sour soup, something the big US manufacturers don't make. One sign that even mass tastes have broadened a bit is the variety found in the Campbell's Select soup line.)

Edited to correct my confusion of eel with that savory-but-not-salty taste that people use MSG to get on foods that do not have it, or do not have enough of it.

Edited by MarketStEl (log)

Sandy Smith, Exile on Oxford Circle, Philadelphia

"95% of success in life is showing up." --Woody Allen

My foodblogs: 1 | 2 | 3

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I suspect that if a cookbook were ever to be produced that explains in lay terms the basic tastes (four or five, depending on whether you count unagi) and how they interact, or what happens when heat is applied or flavors blend when chilling in the refrigerator, either (1) the author would be a professor of chemistry* or (2) it would sell about 100 copies.

Actually that book has been written and it is into it's second edition. :smile:

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I suspect that if a cookbook were ever to be produced that explains in lay terms the basic tastes (four or five, depending on whether you count unagi) and how they interact, or what happens when heat is applied or flavors blend when chilling in the refrigerator, either (1) the author would be a professor of chemistry* or (2) it would sell about 100 copies.

Actually that book has been written and it is into it's second edition. :smile:

"...He studied science and literature at Caltech and Yale..."

--from the back jacket flap to the new 20th anniversary second edition

So I'm totally wrong on the second count but not that far off base on the first.

Sandy Smith, Exile on Oxford Circle, Philadelphia

"95% of success in life is showing up." --Woody Allen

My foodblogs: 1 | 2 | 3

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That old American fave, Joy of Cooking, actually does a somewhat decent job of explaining much of this in the chapters "The Foods We Eat," "The Foods We Heat" and "Know Your Ingredients." Wonder how many of us take the time to read these chapters in full? (I know I haven't.)

:raises hand: Uh, I have.

"I just hate health food"--Julia Child

Jennifer Garner

buttercream pastries

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...take the CAPITAL city of AUGUSTA/MAINE (23,000), not a single Restaurant to mention, except more than three so called 'Chinese' with a lot of Rice and 'Chop Suey' (the American Chinese).

Speak to me, people, please.

I stand corrected, as always.

Well, they do now have a branch of Beale St. BBQ downtown. It's an improvement.

And the fact that Augusta Seafoods remains in business tells me that some folks at least are buying & eating (& presumably appreciating) fresh seafood. I don't know how they're cooking it of course, but I'm still impressed. My town of 18,000 here in densely-populated New Jersey, 10 miles from Manhattan, had an even better fishmonger & they didn't last 2 years.

And technically it's not Augusta, but there are at least 2 restaurants worth mentioning right next door in Hallowell, & another a little further down river in Gardiner.

Things may not be quite as bad as they seem. I take your general point though.

Edited by ghostrider (log)

Thank God for tea! What would the world do without tea? How did it exist? I am glad I was not born before tea!

- Sydney Smith, English clergyman & essayist, 1771-1845

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