The dumbing down of the Western Palate

[Behemoth]

Then there were the Turkey Times such as Thanksgiving.

I have never encountered as narrow a bandwidth of interest in anything beyond the already expected as in at least some areas of the U.S.

Jinmyo, I hate to disagree with you but this is simply not true. As much as I like to complain about my countrymen, the one thing I do like about the US is the openness to many different ethnic cuisines. And I'm not talking only in big cities...in a "Heartland" town of 100,000 I can personally count 7 Korean places, 3 sushi places, two indian, at least 3 (real, non chain) mexican, at least one transcendantly good Italian place, 4 thai, 2 vietnamese, 2 middle eastern, the usual complement of chinese, good and bad....Some execute the cuisine better than others, but all these places are visited by both the recent immigrants and locals alike.

But wasn't Jinmyo referring to cooking, not eating out? How many of those restaurant goers will cook those many different ethnic cuisines at home? How easy is it to find "ethnic" groceries in your Heartland town?

I can't comment on the average European town as far as buying diverse groceries but I do know that it was a hell of a lot easier to buy them in Vancouver than it is in Sacramento...two cities of the same size, btw.

←

I took it as her referring to both. To answer your question, ethnic groceries in my experience have a lot to do with the immigrant population. For example, I have excellent access to Korean, Indian, Mexican and Middle Eastern grocers because that is the population that lives here. The mexican and indian grocers tend to cater more to immigrants, but I see a lot of westerners in the asian and middle eastern stores. And when the local walmart carries pozole and salt cod, I figure it is at least somewhat mainstream. (I prefer to buy both from the indie place, but that's a different story.)

Vancouver has an exceptionally diverse immigrant population relative to sacremento, so it might not be a fair comparison even if the numbers are similar. I would hazard a guess that the latter has a greater selection of mexican groceries.

[Angela Alaimo]

The axiom of Live to Eat or Eat to Live applies in this circumstance. Those who Live to Eat Just Say No to mediocrity, and will do what's necessary to do so.

I (unfortunately) live in an area that fancies itself very High Falootin'--from what I can tell of the changes that have happened in the local Grocery to accomodate these dilettantes means there is less room on the shelf, etc. for what I am looking for. There's lots more of them than there are of me.

Thankfully, and let us all say an often and regular prayer for my boy, my Butcher, Joe Belle, who is in a chain grocery store yet runs a real butcher shop where the boys and girls are wearing bloodied aprons and the ground meat is is fresh daily and I give thanks that I get this kind of service from a creepy grocery store. Huzzah!

What I am saying, in order to remain on-topic--Yes, the Dumbing Down continues, but love and support the places you can find that are Above and Beyond. I have seen the Internet go from Intellectual to Ignorant, and back to at least wanting a measure of Intellectual again.

Keep the Faith.

Angela

[lala]

some thoughts I had today after reading the initial posts... in no apparent order, because this is an incredibly complex issue:

Economics: People are working harder for less money. They're tired, and don't have the time or energy to cook, going to fast food restaurants or chain restaurants in droves. Economics: Lower income people, particularly in cities do not have the choice of fresh foods available to the average EG'er. Plus, many of them work multiple, minimum wage jobs, but they still can't afford higher end foods (Reggiano vs. Green Can) that many of us take for granted. Economics: Kids from lower income areas don't neccessarily get the education of and exposure to higher end foods, organic foods, and what is generally considered to be a balanced, healthy diet. Parents who are working harder and longer may have other demands on their time than to teach their kids about sustainable agriculture. Economics: Suburbanites spend hours commuting to their affordable houses in their homoginized subdivisions, and get home so late that they either pick up fast food, eat at local restaurants (chain restaurants), or use prepared foods to slap dinner on the table. Economics: re: Costco. The point has been made: we love a bargain. Everybody does. Why pay more for the same stuff? As for those those 350k income folks who shop there - well, the rich don't necessarily stay rich by making money, they Stay rich by hanging onto it.

Marketing: Can you avoid the in your face advertising of fast food, chain restaurants, and prepared foods? It's impossible.

Restaurant/Product Placement: What's on your way home? What's on every corner? Chain restaurants. Fast Food restaurants. Huge portions of homoginized food, filled with fat and salt, all tasting the same. Eat enough of this crap and you come to expect that fat satiety and salt overload.

Scheduling: Everyone's overscheduled, including the kids. See first point. People veiw cooking as a chore, not a delight. You have to think about it, shop, cook, eat, then actually clean up. That just looks like more work to people. Families don't cook together any more, and family mealtime has gone the way of the dodo.

Vacation time: See the first point again. Americans take the least amount of vacation time of any industrialized country on earth. No one takes two week vacations any more, it's 4 day breaks a few times a year. So, who travels and eats those different foods that they will remember, and be inspired to find or recreate at home? I know people who on those precious few breaks want to eat what they know, so they don't "waste" a meal on a possibly bad experience. Crappelbys tastes the same everywhere.

Others have made this point, it's also "us" and "them", even though we're all in this together. As has been brought to our awareness recently, there are some widely differing versions of America out there. I was fortunate enought to be raised in a family where we travelled - I was eating octopus on Mikonos with the fishermen at age 4. Our family ate dinner together every weeknight. My brother and I, once old enough, were each responsible for cooking dinner once a week. There were no convienence foods in our house. We went to the Farmer's Markets weekly. My friend, raised 4 blocks from me was fed blue box mac & cheese, had free access to sugary sodas, ate beef 4 nights a week, vegetables came out of the freezer, and the only bread was white bread, etc... She and I have completely different food lifestyles. She wouldn't be caught dead without her packaged foods. I wouldn't be caught dead with them.

We can only fight the good fight, and encourage people to eat new things, go to the Farmer's Market, try a new recipe. And support those people who have the courage to produce real food in season, living with the rythms of the earth, as well as those who have the talent to work delicious magic with elemental foodstuffs like grapes, wheat, and milk.

[TheFoodTutor]

  One of the latest such examples is a new category that I actually find amusing--slow-cooker helpers (Banquet Crock-Pot Classics/Betty Crocker Slow Cooker Helper). 

Actually, I keep thinking the same thing when I see the line of "Pasta Anytime" dishes on the shelf at the grocery store. What, exactly, is hard about cooking spaghetti? Why would you have to have it partially pre-cooked, with a package of sauce, in microwavable form?

I just don't really get it. I know that people want convenience foods that are quick to make, but some of this stuff is some marketing agent coming up with something, and then people are gullible enough to buy it.

By the way, did you know that the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

[redfox]

I wonder, too, how many Italian (say) home cooks have an enormous range of recipes they cook for ordinary dinners. Isn't part of what a lot of people find so appealing about a lot of cuisines the very fact that they're so dedicated to tradition? What keeps those traditional foods traditional is, in part, a lack of interest in, as Jinmyo said, "anything beyond the already expected."

I'd be more inclined to credit a combination of a certain hankering for novelty with the fact that novel things -- even when they're easy to actually make -- require a certain amount of cognitive time and energy that people may not be ready to invest. Thinking and planning about what ingredients to buy and where to get them is tiring if the process itself doesn't thrill you.

It's not just food. There are lots of products in the US and elsewhere where the simple, high-quality version is expensive and hard to find, while a dazzling array of sort-of-interesting and bright and shiny inferior variations are right on your doorstep.

[ladyyoung98]

on a personal note id liek to say something about growing up in a houselhold where we didnt have a lot of money and the best cuts of meat were not affordable nor was fresh parmesan that didnt come from a can..but we were lucky enough to have a mother who wasnt afraid to experiemnt in the kitchen with what she could afford....she was a great beleiever in using herbs and spsices and was never afraind to take an already exisiting recipe that was mediocre and turn it into something brilliant...she never once dumbed down our taste buds.....i wasnt allowed in the kitchen very much at all...at least not to cook but i spent years watching my mother cook and create while she also held down a job to support me and my sisters and brother as a single parent up til i was 16....i learend a lot from her by watching her and when i grew up i took her ideas into my own kitchen and have never been afraid to experiment and whiel yes i love turkey for thanksgiving as well as some of the other things my mother served at ours..i most certainly dont think of it so much as wanting what we had as i do as seeing it as a wonderful and meaningful tradition and one that i really love and enjoy and while i do add my own things to the table that i have created...i still love tradtion...and its traditons that u keep that also help serve to remind you of the godo times you had when you were young..and in truth...even while we didnt have much money when i was growing up....i never actually knew we didnt until i was older.. i always thought my mother was a genuis in the klitchen

she is 65 now and has arthritis and cant do a lot of things she used to be able to do but she taught us a lot of good values and gave us a lot of love

and in her own way...encouragement to try new things

.... and i would not trade those times for anything in the world

Edited December 10, 2004 by ladyyoung98 (log)

[Angela Alaimo]

One of my boys and I are thinking of taking a stopwatch and timing how long it actually takes to say, peel a carrot, chop some celery, a few potatoes, and on and on, and see how much time you are actually saving by eating garbage.

I made some biscotti today (OMG!) and the hardest, most time-consuming part was waiting for the butter to come to room-temperature, because I sort of forgot about that...sort of...just a little.

When it comes to food, I think the US needs a little less Technology and a lot more Love.

Angela

[Jensen]

I took it as her referring to both.

Okay. I responded thinking that she was discussing only cooking. I do agree with you that there is a wide variety of diverse cuisines available from restaurants.

To answer your question, ethnic groceries in my experience have a lot to do with the immigrant population. For example, I have excellent access to Korean, Indian, Mexican and Middle Eastern grocers because that is the population that lives here. The mexican and indian grocers tend to cater more to immigrants, but I see a lot of westerners in the asian and middle eastern stores. And when the local walmart carries pozole and salt cod, I figure it is at least somewhat mainstream. (I prefer to buy both from the indie place, but that's a different story.)

Vancouver has an exceptionally diverse immigrant population relative to sacremento, so it might not be a fair comparison even if the numbers are similar. I would hazard a guess that the latter has a greater selection of mexican groceries.

Yes, that it does.

But even Victoria has a wider range of groceries available in the mainstream grocery stores than Sacramento. There you have a much smaller city with no large recent immigrant population (there is a Chinese community from the gold rush of the 1860s--I think the 2nd oldest Chinatown on the West Coast after San Francisco--but no recent influx of immigrants). Victoria is very much "white bread" in demographic terms and yet it's easier for me to find a wider range of groceries ("ethnic" and otherwise) in the mainstream grocery stores than it is to find them in Sacramento.

In thinking some more about it, I'm not sure it's really because of any lack of adventurous spirit or some sort of xenophobia. The main difference I see in grocery stores down here is the amount of shelf space taken up by "convenience food". Packaged food so that people don't have to cook is much more prevalent here.

Things that I used to consider just average groceries are "specialty" items down here. Some of them are starting to appear at my local grocery store but I'm not holding my breath waiting for others (fresh noodles, for example).

[snowangel]

As I peruse this thread, I think of my role as mother. When I was working outside the home, I used after dinner and homework time for more lessons. And, a way for "quality time" with Diana (now 14). Prepping dinner for the next night. At least thinking about what we would eat. What was in season. What we could prep ahead of time.

It prompted many lessons. Geography aand seasons. Math. Reading (like a recipe).

Lessons such as roux, mire poix, bechamel. Proportions, what happens to what when you cook it in butter, mix it with flour, what your roux tastes like when you don't cook it long enough.

Cooking with and for my kids has been a wonderful experience. It was a wonderful way to spend a late evening with wonderful children. All of us learning. About knives, what is in season, how to do the basics. Like I said before. Math, reading, etc.

What amazes me is Diana's FACS class (formerly home ec, now Family And Consumer Science). The cooking focuses on things like prepped food (ala Pillsbury in a roll in the fridge case at the market). Would this class be mine, the kids would know about vinaragette, roux, braising. There is a way to work all of the academics into this. None of these things are difficult, and as Diana has said, just about anyone has the ingredents on hand to make most of these basics.

A good portion of eating well, healtful and inexpensively is about education. Now that I'm a stay at home mom, budget is reduced. We've discovered that "homemade" is more economical (and it tasted better).

Dumbing down? Not in this house!

[irodguy]

While I agree that the trend is that American's eat fast food and don't know how to cook the largest single reason is that both parents work. As a nation in general we live a very "fast" life style.

Here is my big HOWEVER look at the

1) Popularity of the "Star Chefs"

2) FoodTV

3) Internet shopping allows for any kind of food item to be purchased from anywhere. Obviously you have to be in a city large enough to quick delivery via FedEx et.

4) Designer food stores. There were simply never stores like Central Market, Whole Foods etc.

5) The Slow Food movement

All of these are showing a great resurgence of food and appreciation for food. I know many people who are taking cooking classes. I have many friends who have asked me to start my classes back up at the community center.

Yes there are people that think Taco Bell is Mexican food and that a garden salad at Mcwhatever is the best thing going. But if you really ask most of these people it's just that they don't have the time. They know better and are looking forward to "real" food.

[rancho_gordo]

And yes, the best Mexican (or Tex-Mex) food is to be found there.  However, I learned to cook from Julia Child (whose show appeared on the local ABC affiliate, since EP didn't have a public television station at the time).  Like most of the folk on this website, I prefer French, Italian, and other more creative cuisines. 

No, she didn't....

Surely you want to reconsider this statement. How are French or Italian more "creative" tham mexican or Tex-mex? A lot of people here also love Indian, Chinese, etc. and I don't know that many with an open mind would consider one cuisine more "creative" than another, or even the real subtext here, which seems to be better.

My point is that El Paso is not singular.  If enough people demand better goods, it will be supplied.  The problem is to organize the local foodies enough that their (our?) needs will be met.

Again, how is lobster flown in from Maine better goods than a big fat poblano chile fresh from the field? People demanding lobsters flown in is not good taste, it's arrogance.

FWIW, I've lived in Italy (where I worked as a radio DJ), travelled throughout Europe and spent many warm summers in France.

I hope one day you get to discover the great things that await you in your own backyard.

[Shalmanese]

As I peruse this thread, I think of my role as mother.  When I was working outside the home, I used after dinner and homework time for more lessons.  And, a way for "quality time" with Diana (now  14).  Prepping dinner for the next  night.  At least thinking about what we would eat.  What was in season.  What we could prep ahead of time.

It  prompted many lessons.  Geography aand seasons.  Math.  Reading (like a recipe).

Lessons such as roux, mire poix, bechamel.  Proportions, what happens to what when you  cook it in butter, mix it with flour, what your roux tastes like when you don't cook it long enough.

Cooking with and for my kids has been a wonderful experience.  It was a wonderful way to spend a late evening with wonderful children.  All of us learning.  About knives, what is in  season, how to do the basics.  Like I said before.  Math, reading, etc.

What amazes me is Diana's FACS class (formerly home ec, now Family And Consumer Science).  The cooking focuses on things like prepped food (ala Pillsbury in a roll in the fridge case at the market).  Would this class be mine, the kids would know about vinaragette, roux, braising.  There is a way to work all of the academics into this.  None of these things are difficult, and as Diana has said, just about anyone has the ingredents on hand to make most of these basics.

A good portion of eating well, healtful and inexpensively is about education.  Now that I'm a stay at home mom, budget is reduced.  We've discovered that "homemade" is more economical (and it tasted better).

Dumbing down?  Not in this house!

←

This is exactly the kind of phenomena I am talking about. Misty eyed about the past full of pleasant moments in the kitchen and food as an integral part of your life, I see a fundamental inability to understand just exactly how the other half live. Theres this inability to comprehend how much apparently the Walmart masses care so little about food.

And this vein has been running through the entire thread. Either posts sneering about "look, these poor fools, they buy Hamburger Helper! how stupid of them" or "Oh, these poor unfortunate people, they buy Hamburger Helper due to the evil corporations foisting it on them because they never learned how to cook real food. How unfortunate for them".

Not anyplace in this thread or even much on the board has the sentiment "These people might know about good food, they might even know exactly how to make it. But, making a rational decision, they choose Hamburger Helper all by themselves because they have different priorities from most egulleteers and they are simply making the most rational choice given their particular priorities.

In fact, a lot of this thread reminds me of the spate of political threads (not on this board) pre-election which were basically just a dumping ground for Democrats saying "Gee, these Republicans sure are dumb, they even think Saddam was linked with Osama, HaHa stupid republicans". No effort was made by either side to really connect or understand the other side and the shocked reaction of the Dems clearly highlighted just how out of touch they were with the political mainstream.

I think, by forming such an insular community such as egullet, posters can similarly lose touch with the culinary reality and form a distorted world view of the culinary scene. Events happening in the world will seem inexplicable and bewildering from the foodie perspective and there is the tendancy to ascribe trite explainations to phenomena and then hold it as gospel, unable to be questioned.

So far, in this thread, I've already heard the "It's the evil marketers" argument and the "It's because people are too poor" argument. I'm not neccesarily saying their wrong, but to be taken as inherently true without discussion or argument can be dangerous.

[irodguy]

And yes, the best Mexican (or Tex-Mex) food is to be found there.  However, I learned to cook from Julia Child (whose show appeared on the local ABC affiliate, since EP didn't have a public television station at the time).  Like most of the folk on this website, I prefer French, Italian, and other more creative cuisines. 

No, she didn't....

Surely you want to reconsider this statement. How are French or Italian more "creative" tham mexican or Tex-mex? A lot of people here also love Indian, Chinese, etc. and I don't know that many with an open mind would consider one cuisine more "creative" than another, or even the real subtext here, which seems to be better.

My point is that El Paso is not singular.  If enough people demand better goods, it will be supplied.  The problem is to organize the local foodies enough that their (our?) needs will be met.

Again, how is lobster flown in from Maine better goods than a big fat poblano chile fresh from the field? People demanding lobsters flown in is not good taste, it's arrogance.

FWIW, I've lived in Italy (where I worked as a radio DJ), travelled throughout Europe and spent many warm summers in France.

I hope one day you get to discover the great things that await you in your own backyard.

←

Yep now question. Not to even mention that if you are truly into great food, you eat was is fresh in the area. Yes you may not find fresh Lobster. On the other hand you will find great Meats including Beef, Goat & Lamb in El Paso.

So of the best steak I have ever had was in Juarez. There are some very nice restaurants in Juarez. It's a large city with yes a large poor class, but also a sizeable wealthy factory / business community.

[ladyyoung98]

gordo...i applaud you...you said some of the things i thought as i read some of the post....but wasnt able to say...but im sure i made my mother real proud of me anyway even though she may never know it

and irodguy...thanks for also pointing out those other factors they are equally true...and ther is a ressurgance of at least a desire to cook well..were there not...we would not have a channel like the food channle nor would we have all these popular tv chefs..and one doenst have to buy things that are expensive in order to cook well...

[irodguy]

And yes, the best Mexican (or Tex-Mex) food is to be found there.  However, I learned to cook from Julia Child (whose show appeared on the local ABC affiliate, since EP didn't have a public television station at the time).  Like most of the folk on this website, I prefer French, Italian, and other more creative cuisines. 

No, she didn't....

Surely you want to reconsider this statement. How are French or Italian more "creative" tham mexican or Tex-mex? A lot of people here also love Indian, Chinese, etc. and I don't know that many with an open mind would consider one cuisine more "creative" than another, or even the real subtext here, which seems to be better.

My point is that El Paso is not singular.  If enough people demand better goods, it will be supplied.  The problem is to organize the local foodies enough that their (our?) needs will be met.

Again, how is lobster flown in from Maine better goods than a big fat poblano chile fresh from the field? People demanding lobsters flown in is not good taste, it's arrogance.

FWIW, I've lived in Italy (where I worked as a radio DJ), travelled throughout Europe and spent many warm summers in France.

I hope one day you get to discover the great things that await you in your own backyard.

←

Yep now question. Not to even mention that if you are truly into great food, you eat was is fresh in the area. Yes you may not find fresh Lobster. On the other hand you will find great Meats including Beef, Goat & Lamb in El Paso.

So of the best steak I have ever had was in Juarez. There are some very nice restaurants in Juarez. It's a large city with yes a large poor class, but also a sizeable wealthy factory / business community.

[Behemoth]

I think it's just too easy to make these generalizations about the U.S...Its a conservative country (though half the country was decidedly liberal), food is dumbed down (yet my local borders carries 10 different food publications, our kitchen supply shops are routinely packed, I can get lovely brussels sprouts on the vine at the otherwise truly lame neighborhood supermarket, never mind the wonders that await me if I'm willing to drive 5 minutes to the other one.) . There's a grain truth to pretty much anything you say about the U.S.. Some of us cook, some of us don't. (We contradict ourselves, we contain multitudes... ) Moreover, I think culinarily, we are less dumb about food now than we were 50, 30, even 20 years ago.

As for experimentation, I can tell you right now that my Lebanese grandmother was an amazing cook, but she only cooked Lebanese food. Similarly, my husband comes from a family of good German cooks, but they mainly stick to german stuff, with the occasional Italian dish thrown in. I've found americans to be a lot more gung ho about trying new stuff, even if it is stir fry sauce out of a bottle or whatever.

Finally, I see that some people probably cook less, but for personal reasons I have a lot of sympathy for busy two-career households. I happen to enjoy cooking as a hobby, so I am happy to do it most days, but some days I get home late and its fried eggs and toast and beans out of a can. And as much as I respect that other people make other choices, there is no way I am putting my day job second to putting a meal on the table, nope, never. That is just too much of a tradeoff.

[lala]

Shalmanese said:

"Not anyplace in this thread or even much on the board has the sentiment "These people might know about good food, they might even know exactly how to make it. But, making a rational decision, they choose Hamburger Helper all by themselves because they have different priorities from most egulleteers and they are simply making the most rational choice given their particular priorities."

Wouldn't those "different priorities" include lifestyle, money, scheduling, availability of ingredients, ease of preparation, etc. - all of which have been discussed here?

Edited December 10, 2004 by lala (log)

[MarketStEl]

By the way, did you know that the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

←

Maybe not in the abridged edition, but here's the entry in The American Heritage Dictionary, 3rd edition:

gul-li-ble adj. Easily decieved or duped. [From GULL(2).]

At GULL(2) we find the following definition:

n. "A person who is easily tricked or cheated; a dupe."

tr.v. To decieve or cheat.

BTW, in the etymology for this sense of "gull", it also says "See GULLET."

[Shalmanese]

Shalmanese said:

"Not anyplace in this thread or even much on the board has the sentiment "These people might know about good food, they might even know exactly how to make it. But, making a rational decision, they choose Hamburger Helper all by themselves because they have different priorities from most egulleteers and they are simply making the most rational choice given their particular priorities."

Wouldn't those "different priorities" include  lifestyle, money, scheduling, availability of ingredients, ease of preparation, etc. - all of which have been discussed here?

←

No, those certainly can come into play, but that's also ignoring the fact that people, in general, have more money, more access to a wide variety of ingredients, good food has become cheaper when eating out or eating in and some choices, say, supermarket tomato vs vine ripened have nothing to do with time pressures.

Someone had to be the first person to buy Walmart pap bread instead of real bread from the local bakery and someone had to be the last person to switch over from bakery bread to Walmart pap before the bakery became uneconomical and shut down.

Now both of these people understood what real bread tasted like yet chose to go for the Walmart pap, My question is why? And, more importantly, does the reason you provide make sense if you scrutinize it carefully?

[TheFoodTutor]

By the way, did you know that the word "gullible" is not in the dictionary?

←

Maybe not in the abridged edition, but here's the entry in The American Heritage Dictionary, 3rd edition:

gul-li-ble adj. Easily decieved or duped. [From GULL(2).]

At GULL(2) we find the following definition:

n. "A person who is easily tricked or cheated; a dupe."

tr.v. To decieve or cheat.

BTW, in the etymology for this sense of "gull", it also says "See GULLET."

←

Oh my God. I cannot believe it took less than 5 hours for someone to fall for that.

Hook. Line. Sinker.

Cool. I wonder if I could do it again on another section of eGullet.

[MarketStEl]

What amazes me is Diana's FACS class (formerly home ec, now Family And Consumer Science).  The cooking focuses on things like prepped food (ala Pillsbury in a roll in the fridge case at the market).  Would this class be mine, the kids would know about vinaragette, roux, braising.  There is a way to work all of the academics into this.  None of these things are difficult, and as Diana has said, just about anyone has the ingredents on hand to make most of these basics.

(...)

Dumbing down?  Not in this house!

←

<loud applause>

Your observation brought to mind the cooking class I took in the 9th grade during mini-course period at my high school. It was an introduction to French cooking--the two dishes I remember making were Coquilles St. Jacques (there goes that regional variation stuff--scallops are the primary ingredient, and Kansas City is 1300 miles from the closest ocean (or do scallops grow in the Gulf of Mexico, a mere 600-odd miles away?)) and a dish that involved ground beef--and no, it wasn't Steak Tartare.

Both were very easy to prepare, and I could do everything by myself at home (which I did later).

Now, I attended the best private school in the city rather than a public school, so that may have made some difference. It probably would have also made a difference had I gone to the best public school in the city instead of the high school I would have attended based on geography.

[marie-louise]

Yet another possibility: At its heart, America is a Puritan society. eGulleteers aside, I think many people are uncomfortable with pursuing the sensual pleasure of eating on a daily basis. It seems so...WRONG somehow to put food in your mouth that makes you moan with pleasure. Especially at lunch (it's DAYLIGHT, for God's sake.) Better to have an energy bar or a quickie at McDonald's and get back to work. Spending an hour or two eating great food a few times a day seems so...French. Hedonistic.

But yet, what is naughty interests us. Therefore, the Food Channel, cooking magazines, etc.

BTW, I of course have no idea whether this is even remotely accurate. I just know that I think eating is a sensual pleasure, and I do know that by and large, Americans are uncomfortable with sexuality. It seems plausible.

[JPW]

Shalmanese said:

"Not anyplace in this thread or even much on the board has the sentiment "These people might know about good food, they might even know exactly how to make it. But, making a rational decision, they choose Hamburger Helper all by themselves because they have different priorities from most egulleteers and they are simply making the most rational choice given their particular priorities."

Wouldn't those "different priorities" include  lifestyle, money, scheduling, availability of ingredients, ease of preparation, etc. - all of which have been discussed here?

←

No, those certainly can come into play, but that's also ignoring the fact that people, in general, have more money, more access to a wide variety of ingredients, good food has become cheaper when eating out or eating in and some choices, say, supermarket tomato vs vine ripened have nothing to do with time pressures.

Someone had to be the first person to buy Walmart pap bread instead of real bread from the local bakery and someone had to be the last person to switch over from bakery bread to Walmart pap before the bakery became uneconomical and shut down.

Now both of these people understood what real bread tasted like yet chose to go for the Walmart pap, My question is why? And, more importantly, does the reason you provide make sense if you scrutinize it carefully?

←

Shalmanese,

Your response to lala's post makes me wonder if you are bothering to read all of the posts in the thread. If you are, then we are reading two different threads.

All of the factors lala mentioned are parts of the answer to the question you ask at the end of the post that have been mentioned here.

Perhaps the one that hasn't been mentioned is that it's easier to buy at WalMart. You can buy your underwear and your Wonder bread in one place.

What exactly is it that you are trolling for?

[MarketStEl]

As I peruse this thread, I think of my role as mother.  When I was working outside the home, I used after dinner and homework time for more lessons. [...]

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This is exactly the kind of phenomena I am talking about. Misty eyed about the past full of pleasant moments in the kitchen and food as an integral part of your life, I see a fundamental inability to understand just exactly how the other half live. Theres this inability to comprehend how much apparently the Walmart masses care so little about food.

And this vein has been running through the entire thread. Either posts sneering about "look, these poor fools, they buy Hamburger Helper! how stupid of them" or "Oh, these poor unfortunate people, they buy Hamburger Helper due to the evil corporations foisting it on them because they never learned how to cook real food. How unfortunate for them".

Not anyplace in this thread or even much on the board has the sentiment "These people might know about good food, they might even know exactly how to make it. But, making a rational decision, they choose Hamburger Helper all by themselves because they have different priorities from most egulleteers and they are simply making the most rational choice given their particular priorities.

In fact, a lot of this thread reminds me of the spate of political threads (not on this board) pre-election which were basically just a dumping ground for Democrats saying "Gee, these Republicans sure are dumb, they even think Saddam was linked with Osama, HaHa stupid republicans". No effort was made by either side to really connect or understand the other side and the shocked reaction of the Dems clearly highlighted just how out of touch they were with the political mainstream.

I think, by forming such an insular community such as egullet, posters can similarly lose touch with the culinary reality and form a distorted world view of the culinary scene. Events happening in the world will seem inexplicable and bewildering from the foodie perspective and there is the tendancy to ascribe trite explainations to phenomena and then hold it as gospel, unable to be questioned.

So far, in this thread, I've already heard the "It's the evil marketers" argument and the "It's because people are too poor" argument. I'm not neccesarily saying their wrong, but to be taken as inherently true without discussion or argument can be dangerous.

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I guess I need to come out of the culinary closet here. (I'm already out of that other one.)

Yes, I know how to cook, and my friends say I do it well. (I can also do it badly when I'm distracted.) I like trying new foods, experimenting with ingredients, playing around with recipes and all that good stuff. I also can appreciate how much better the Lancaster County raw milk Cheddar I bought at the Reading Terminal Market last week tastes than the Cabot Vermont extra sharp I usually keep on hand for snacking or the America's Choice New York extra sharp I use in cooking.

But I also have anywhere from three to five boxes of Hamburger, Tuna or Chicken Helper in my pantry at any given time. There are times when I too don't want to be bothered with too much prep work, and at those times, this product fits in well with my life. It's very simple to fix, it tastes good (my partner especially likes the Cheeseburger Macaroni), and it's inexpensive.

Not to mention the packages of Oodles of Noodles that I keep on hand for whatever. (A friend of mine derides these noodles, saying, "Those are for poor people." Well, if college students on a budget are poor people, so be it, but many of them come from affluent families and I don't see them turning up their noses at ramen noodles. They are versatile, after all.)

So--to quote Walt Whitman--"I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself." As do many more of us, I suspect.

[MarketStEl]

Oh my God. I cannot believe it took less than 5 hours for someone to fall for that.

Hook. Line. Sinker.

Cool. I wonder if I could do it again on another section of eGullet.

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To not quote Walt Whitman:

I embarrass myself? Very well then, I embarrass myself.

Talk about embodying a definition!