Foibles & fallacies: the demon customer

[Bux]

(d) With regard to tipping.... I understand that in Australia most restaurants pay their waitstaff fairly and well and that tipping is no longer an issue. If we lived in a better world - one for example where waiters and waitresses indeed received fair salaries, I would agree that tipping would be unnecessary.  Alas, the world is far from perfect.

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I don't agree. If customers understood the tipping system, then it is fair.

Waiters are paid a flat wage - generally quite low. The remainder of their wage they earn by pleasing the customer. In theory, in a perfect world, the more pleased the customer, the greater the tip.

If the tip were to be abolished then restaurant prices would have to increase to meet the shortfall between the flat wage and the tip and therefore, power is taken from the customer. The tip adds a little extra motivation, which in my experience works. For me, it also makes the shift a little more fun

There are times when you work your ass off and smile sweetly all evening, and get just a few quid from a massive table, but in general, tipping worked in my experience.

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If. If life were fair, life would be fair. By and large, customers do not understand the tipping system locally. They understand it far worse when they travel and waiters in destination cities tend to experience far less fair tipping.

In theory, the more pleased the customer the greater the tip if customers where machines perhaps, but studies have shown that most people tend not to relate their tips to the service received. Big tippers tend to tip more regardless of service and small tippers tend to do the opposite in general and are most easily persuaded that the service was faulty. As long as humans do the tipping, tipping will remain an inherently unfair way to compensate employees. Theories may suggest otherwise especially when they assume that if prices were removed from all good and services, we'd each go into a shop, take what we need and voluntarily leave the exact value of the goods in legal tender.

Most waiters I know, and admittedly they tend to work in the higher end of the business, do not want tipping abolished and replaced with a salary precisely because tipping is unfair on an individual basis, and because at the higher end, there are more people who tend to be good tippers than bad tippers. That does't address the fairness issue.

Just as there are good tippers and bad tippers, there are people who do their job and there are slackers. The amount of the tip left after they perform their job rarely has a great effect on how well they had already performed, although the regular customer who's a good tipper may see some small degree of extra service. If I may be allowed a broad generalization, I've dined in countries where tipping is a waiter's salary, where tipping supplements a fair wage and makes up a small part of a waiter's income, and where tipping is seen as offensive. The less part tipping plays, the more professional the service seems to be. This is not to say that it's not all culturally driven or that eliminating tipping and paying a fair wage would improve service in the US.

[Bux]

In answer to the topical question, the customer is not always right. That statement is merely a motto for doing business profitably. What it really means is that usually it's more profitable in the the long run for a restaurant to pretend the customer is right and treat him as if he's right. It's actually a hypocritical attitude and it's encouraged many a boor and buffoon to overstep his rights.

To return to that subject. I believe a restaurant may make all the rules it would like about its client's dress and the way they behave as long as those rules are not in conflict with the law. If such rules drive away diners, well that's the restaurant's concern. Your money doesn't buy you the right to dine without a tie, have your sauce on the side, make substitutions in the dishes or use a cellphone. It buys you the right to choose your designated restaurant. Once you are there, you dine by their rules. An intelligent diner will make himself aware of a restaurant's codes just as he will be informed of the type of food they serve and the prices they charge. The idea that one arrives at a restaurant with enough money to rent the staff to do one's bidding as social inferiors for a period of time is very ill mannered, in my opinion.

On a more personal level, I have to agree with those who have espressed an opinion that a noisy drunk adult is offensive in a way that a quiet baby is not and that a diner speaking quietly into a mobile phone is less offensive than the same diner speaking too loudly to someone at his table. I understand why someone might get tense at the sight of a baby or a cellphone, but that may not always be justified and it may result in restaurants making rules I find stupid. That too is their right as it is ours to criticize.

[TheFoodTutor]

If one were to follow the model that the customer is always right, at least according to some things I've read in various threads, one would be able to assume that, since there are probably quite a few customers at my restaurant who would be much happier if we sold slabs of prime rib for $2 instead of $22, then we should just go ahead and lower the price. But of course, that would be a terrible idea, unless your perfect business model is one that loses money hand over fist. There are lots of ways to make people happy and lose money at it, and only a few ways to make everyone generally satisfied and turn a profit.

And I also agree that some adults are much more disruptive than some children. However, it is sad that it's so rare for me to see parents respond appropriately when their child begins screaming - the correct response being to snatch up the child and take him outside until he can settle down - that I am overwhelmed with thankfulness every time I do see this happen.

The one behavior mentioned here that doesn't really bother me is breastfeeding in restaurants. When I see a woman breastfeeding at my table, I simply look her straight in the eye and take her order, as if she weren't doing anything especially remarkable, and then when my male co-workers giggle and point, I slap them and tell them to shut up. Babies have to eat when they have to eat, and they sure can't make any noise when they have something in their mouths, so I don't see anything offensive there.

[Pan]

I fine my students if their phone rings during a seminar.

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How? Since an answer might risk going off-topic, feel free to PM me if in your considered opinion, that would be better than posting a response here. But I'm curious, as this is an issue I and probably most any other teacher has to deal with nowadays. It sucks when someone's cell phone goes off while I'm playing music for class, including during quizzes and tests.

[nwyles]

I had a "guest" just last week that had to be spoken to regarding his swearing in the dining room like a " drunken sailor ". He started to spout about how much money he was spending and isn't the customer always right ?

I had to tell him that it did not really matter how much money he spent if it was causing a discomfort to other guests. He did not understand that!

I also had to inform him that the customer is not always right in my little enlightened dicatorship, but he is always the customer. We treat everyone with respect, including him even after his poor behavior.

That he seemed to understand.

[hjshorter]

Let me ask you this, do you turn off the ringer on your home phones?

Yes, unless my children are at school and the school might need to reach me. When I had a newborn, it was off more than it was on. If it was important, the caller could leave a message.

If your home phone does ring during dinner, do you answer it?

No. That's what answering machines are for.

Is there a difference between the urgency in that call, and the urgency in a restaurant call?

The only call I would answer at a restaurant is one from the babysitter.

Do you exhibit bad manners when you answer your home phone during a meal?

In our house, it is the same as turning on the TV or opening a book when conversation is expected. Dinner time is family time. How will we teach our children to be considerate diners if we interrupt them to take phone calls during dinner?

Is it the cellphone that makes you uncomfortable?

No.

[Pan]

I also had to inform him that the customer is not always right in my little enlightened dicatorship, but he is always the customer. We treat everyone with respect, including him even after his poor behavior.

That he seemed to understand.

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Well done! Looks like we can learn a lot about effective dealings with customers from you.

[balex]

Once you are there, you dine by their rules. An intelligent diner will make himself aware of a restaurant's codes just as he will be informed of the type of food they serve and the prices they charge. The idea that one arrives at a restaurant with enough money to rent the staff to do one's bidding as social inferiors for a period of time is very ill mannered, in my opinion.

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I know that when you are in a hole you should stop digging but several people have disagreed with what I said above which I repeat here

This is the only one I disagree with,  Waitstaff are servants -- not my personal servants, but they are there to serve me. They are servants of the restaurant (in the technical legal sense) and they are my social inferiors in that context .  Obviously you shouldn't speak rudely to them,

So to explain -- in England (and in a lot of america I think) the branch of law that governs employment is called "master and servant" law. The word servant obviously sounds a bit old-fashioned, but that is what any employee is. I am a servant in my job, and my boss has the right to order me around. In that relationship I am not her equal.

When I go to a restaurant I have a relationship with the waiter. (no dirty jokes please). But that is not a symmetric relationship. The waiter serves me, defers to me, should be polite etc. That's all I meant. It doesn't mean that being a waiter is a bad job, or that waiters are inferior, or that they are low class. Also note that the waiter is not my servant; he or she is the servant of the restaurant.

In languages which express hiererarchical social relationships directly you can see by the forms of address that this is the case -- in Japan or Thailand or even in Italy ( lei gradisce qualcosa etc."). They use the sort of language that one uses to people who are their superiors. Again this doesn't mean "better" -- it is just a neutral sociological description of a particular phenomenon.

Anyway, I know this sort of stuff annoys Americans a llot because there is no clas/social hierarchy in America but those of us that don't live in the US have to understand it.

And I don't mean to offend anyone, especially not waiters who have brought me some of the happiest

moments of my life. Long live them!

[Pan]

Balex, it definitely occurred to me that your wording could have to do with greater class-consciousness in Britain. So I did think of that, even though I didn't specifically comment on it.

[Daniel Rogov]

[TheFoodTutor]

As to the charge that some of us may be Luddites and might have objected to the horseless carriage in its day, forgive me but that holds no water.

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I thought the same thing when I saw that charge. Actually, if I had lived in 1905, I would have been agog with all the rest at the wonders of the horseless carriage, and far from thinking it would be a producer of pollution, I'd have marveled at having a form of transportation that doesn't poop in the streets.

And I'd agree with the idea of turning off the ringer of one's home phone when one is entertaining. If I've invited a couple to dinner at my place, why in the world would I want to speak to that old friend who found my phone number after 10 years and decided to chat. I can call him back tomorrow, on receiving the message, and perhaps he'll not be drunk at that time, so even better.

It seems there's nothing so far that Mr. Rogov and I disagree on, and he does use wonderful words to express it, so it's good to have a companion of his intellect on these boards.

As far as servers being servants, there are many social norms in the U.S. that do suggest there is a class system in place, so I presume that balex's reference was a joke. Still, there are times that patrons cross just about any line you can place in front of them, and it is a lot to expect that servers will continue to be humble no matter how belittling is the manner of the guest. It's one of those things that's very difficult to accept, even when one is well-mannered, so it's understandable that such is a touchy subject.

[Rebel Rose]

I had a "guest" just last week that had to be spoken to regarding his swearing in the dining room like a " drunken sailor ". He started to spout about how much money he was spending and isn't the customer always right ?

I also had to inform him that the customer is not always right in my little enlightened dicatorship, but he is always the customer. We treat everyone with respect, including him even after his poor behavior.

That he seemed to understand.

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Nwyles, you have a good philosophy! I wish I could adhere but my otherwise shy Norwegian temperament is not so accomodating. Next time I will try that approach!

Only twice has a guest been obnoxious and brought up the 'customer is always right, right?' thing with me. Both times ::knees shaking:: I smiled and informed him that as of yet he had not paid me anything and therefore was not technically a customer but still a guest, and that I would decide whether or not his behavior was appropriate. Both times there were others present as well and the situation ended with a wink and better behavior. Whoo. ::hand swiping forehead::

There have, however, been many other times when I've had to deal with loud cellphone conversations, bratty children, arguments, foul language, etc. My rule: it's my home, we have kids. If you don't do it in my house, you don't do it in my business.

[robyn]

(d) I am not fond of people who insist on starting cross-discussions with strangers at other tables.  It is inappropriate to ask others what they thought of their portions, to comment on their clothing or to otherwise interfere with their pleasure.

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I'm not sure what's wrong with this - unless the operative word is "insist" when the people sitting next to you don't want to chat (some people like to chat - others don't). My husband and I travel a fair amount - and - over the years - we've had some terrific conversations with couples/people sitting next to us. Best I can recall is an almost 3 hour conversation with another couple at a fancy restaurant in London - they were both doctors - we're both lawyers - and we had a great time discussing the medical and legal systems in the US and the UK. Robyn

[Gifted Gourmet]

Despite that, I still wonder how many of us are that important that we need to be "in touch" with the outside world at all hours of the day or night. Forgive me if I'm out of line but good manners can also add to the pleasure of life.

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Thank you yet again, Rogov, for validating my comments earlier in this thread on our own visions of self importance ... personally, anything less than a dying hospital patient when one is 'on call' doesn't require a meal time 'summons' ...

and yes as well to the pleasure enjoying/appreciating good manners affords us in the enjoyment of civilized living ...

[Pan]

My husband and I travel a fair amount - and - over the years - we've had some terrific conversations with couples/people sitting next to us.  Best I can recall is an almost 3 hour conversation with another couple at a fancy restaurant in London - they were both doctors - we're both lawyers - and we had a great time discussing the medical and legal systems in the US and the UK.  Robyn

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Yeah, I've also had good conversations with other guests. But it's not always appropriate, and people need to be sensitive to the situation.

[Daniel Rogov]

I'm not sure what's wrong with this - unless the operative word is "insist" when the people sitting next to you don't want to chat (some people like to chat - others don't).  My husband and I travel a fair amount - and - over the years - we've had some terrific conversations with couples/people sitting next to us.  Best I can recall is an almost 3 hour conversation with another couple at a fancy restaurant in London - they were both doctors - we're both lawyers - and we had a great time discussing the medical and legal systems in the US and the UK.  Robyn

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Robyn, Hi....

I thought about this and agree that there are moments when eye contact is made, a spark makes itself felt and a conversation can start up in a fully natural way. Indeed, that has happened to me as well. I concur with you that the key word here is "insist". I'm all for sponteneity!

[Gifted Gourmet]

This thread has generated a great deal to consider and digest!

After all is said and done, will you now look at your fellow customers in restaurants with 'new eyes'?

Will your own behavior be even more diligently self-scrutinized?

Do you think that during your future dining experiences you will now be even more acutely aware of fellow diners and even more sensitive?

No change? All of the above?

[Tess]

As a customer, when I hear things from the perspective of servers like Food Tutor, it makes me resolve to try a little harder to be considerate and not put a server in an awkward position. Some of my friends don't, shall we say, have perfect manners, so this can be hard. (I have finally trained my partner not to polish off a whole dish and then start complaining about it, though.)

[Gifted Gourmet]

Ah, Tess, you have touched upon the virtual heart of the issue: can people within one's immediate circle be 'trained' to act appropriately at the table of a restaurant?

I would say a resounding 'aye' if done with finesse and gently ... modeling proper behavior to one's peers? possible?

[Tess]

Ah, Tess, you have touched upon the virtual heart of the issue: can people within one's immediate circle be 'trained' to act appropriately at the table of a restaurant?

I would say a resounding 'aye' if done with finesse and gently ... modeling proper behavior to one's peers? possible?

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Not always and, you know, nobody wants to be Miss Manners all the time. I think you have to be married or live with someone and you have to pick your battles.

If it's one of my partner's friends, or one of my constantly-complaining older relatives, a "Yeah, I know" smile to the server and an augmented tip is usually all I do.

[Daniel Rogov]

A post I cannot resist making in relation to this discussion. Earlier this evening I entered a Tel Aviv cafe, one of my favorites and at one round table were five men, each talking on his cell phone. I saw something similar a few years ago and as I did then, my unconscious mind went just a bit wild and I imagined that they were actually talking to each other, having forgotten that conversations can be carried on without cell phones.

My own table was on the opposite side of the room from theirs but not help but notice that in the forty minutes during which I did (I confess) enjoy my double machiatto, no less than 19 phone calls were made or received by members of the group. Power, as it is said, to some of the people!!!

[Pan]

After all is said and done, will you now look at your fellow customers in restaurants with 'new eyes'?

Will your own behavior be even more diligently self-scrutinized?

Do you think that during your future dining experiences you will now be even more acutely aware of fellow diners and even more sensitive?

No change? All of the above?

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I'll answer perhaps a somewhat different question, but one related to these. There's no doubt that I'm more sensitive to my behavior as a customer vis a vis the waitstaff since I've been on eGullet. I tip higher, particularly when I've been in some way high-maintenance (such as by asking a few questions that the waiter had to ask the BOH and get back to me on) or the waiter has otherwise been particularly helpful.

[Gifted Gourmet]

and pray tell, Rogov, were you:

(a) about as aware as you had been before this discussion?

(b) about the same as usual?

© much more interested in both the number of calls and/or the volume?

Did we actually pique your fascination with the cell phone-in-dining-setting with this particular thread?

[Daniel Rogov]

and pray tell, Rogov, were you:

(a) about as aware as you had been before this discussion?

(b) about the same as usual?

© much more interested in both the number of calls and/or the volume?

Did we actually pique your fascination with the cell phone-in-dining-setting with this particular thread?

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(a and b) same level of awareness

© Equally fascinated by both but even more by the social phenomenon. Reminded me somewhat of what psychologists call "a collective monologue" in which a group of people are all talking about completely separate subjects, none listening to any other but each convinced that each is listening to him/her.

At this point I would use a smilie, but as well you might have gathered, I'm into smling but not smilies. On that note, considering that it is now 1:35 a.m. here, that my Armagnac glass is quite empty and my Monte Cristo #3 has been well enjoyed, to borrow a phrase from Mr. Pepys "....and so to bed"

Edited November 27, 2004 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

On that note, considering that it is now 1:35 a.m. here, that my Armagnac glass is quite empty and my Monte Cristo #3 has been well enjoyed, to borrow a phrase from Mr. Pepys "....and so to bed"

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Without your cell phone, I'll venture ...

Thanks, Rogov, for the 'followup' once again!