'Old School' Chinese BBQ Spare Ribs

[scott123]

Thanks to Irwin's(wesza) brilliant insider information, light is beginning to shed on the 'old school' Chinese BBQ rib mystery.

I don't know about everyone else, but I've been looking for this recipe for many years. Although I could have tacked this onto the previous thread, I believe that the occasion is momentous enough to merit a new topic.

I made spare ribs!!! They were ridden with flaws (dry, stringy, weak tasting) but the taste, that taste of my childhood, was there. Barely there, but there, none the less.

OH BOY THIS IS EXCITING STUFF!

And now that the celebration has died down... I've got questions.

1. Duck sauce is apricot and sugar, and the less expensive peaches. Since Duck Sauce has been around for ages wouldn't it make sense that it might at some point have replaced the apricot puree?

2. How hot is the Chinese roasting oven that spare ribs hang in?

3. Are the ribs basted as they roast?

4. How long are they marinated for?

5. Might they be boiled before roasting?

6. Ratio of apricot jam to soy sauce? (I used 1:1 but found it too salty, not enough fruit notes)

7. Final char occurs on a grill? What kind of grill?

8. Length of final char

My recipe is only in it's preliminary stages, but for those interested, here's what I have so far

16 parts apricot jam, strained (may try duck sauce)

8 parts soy sauce

1 part grated ginger (not sure about ginger - may try without)

Red Food Coloring until dark red

Marinate in this overnight, remove, bring marinade to a boil, set aside.

Bake ribs for about 6 hours in a 225 degree oven, basting with liquid (watered down marinade?), then glazing heavily and finishing for 5 minutes/side on a searing hot grill.

Edited November 2, 2004 by scott123 (log)

[wesza]

Scott:

Thank you for your allocates, especially since it's welcoming me back after a 1 1/2 month visit to NYC. You've done a good job putting together a comparable "Spare Rib" recipe prepared in a home oven.

About the Plum Sauce Apricot adaptation, please remember that Plum Sauce is a standard Restaurant Condiment purchased prepared in almost every restaurant at a price generally higher them "Apricot's Dried, Apricot Jam or Apricot Puree's".

In most instances Dried Apricots are the least expensive, followed by Commercially Packed Jams in # 10 Cans or 5 Gallon Containers. In NYC Style Chinese Restaurants the price was most important in finishing the Pork and the Ribs. In fact often Brown or White Sugar were added, with some vinegar, sherry. Maggi Sauce, MSG, White Pepper and often some Dark Soy into the Marinate.

The hardest thing to do at home is copy the effect of a "Chinese Roasting Oven" where the Meats or Ribs are hung standing upright from Hooks placed at the top of the Oven for the Roasting Process. The items being Roasted were not basted until the Meats are almost ready, where a final glazed effected is made by increasing the heat after basting, after the meats are removed they are generally hung suspended during the cooling process. The temperature is not very high during the initial roasting, but it's about 450/550 during the last few minutes. During the Roasting there is a drip pan containing water to catch all the drippings and keep the meats moist, this must be watched and often topped up, but makes a delicious sauce.

When you are ready to serve the Pork or Ribs it's easiest to Broil them in a Steel Pan [Pie Tins Work] under high heat in your oven Broiler. Most NYC Chinese Restaurants used a underfire Radiant Heat Broiler for this purpose, but it works well with any type of Broiler, only long enough to bring to a hot sizzle on the surface after being warmed up in the oven to about 135/145 degrees.

Enjoy,

Irwin

Thanks to Irwin's(wesza) brilliant insider information, light is beginning to shed on the 'old school' Chinese BBQ rib mystery.

I don't know about everyone else, but I've been looking for this recipe for many years.  Although I could have tacked this onto the previous thread, I believe that the occasion is momentous enough to merit a new topic.

I made spare ribs!!! They were ridden with flaws (dry, stringy, weak tasting) but the taste, that taste of my childhood, was there.  Barely there, but there, none the less.

OH BOY THIS IS EXCITING STUFF!

And now that the celebration has died down... I've got questions.

1.  Duck sauce is apricot and sugar, and the less expensive peaches. Since Duck Sauce has been around for ages wouldn't it make sense that it might at some point have replaced the apricot puree?

2.  How hot is the Chinese roasting oven that spare ribs hang in?

3.  Are the ribs basted as they roast?

4.  How long are they marinated for?

5.  Might they be boiled before roasting?

6.  Ratio of apricot jam to soy sauce? (I used 1:1 but found it too salty, not enough fruit notes)

7.  Final char occurs on a grill? What kind of grill?

8.  Length of final char

My recipe is only in it's preliminary stages, but for those interested, here's what I have so far

16 parts apricot jam, strained (may try duck sauce)

8 parts soy sauce

1 part grated ginger (not sure about ginger - may try without)

Red Food Coloring until dark red

Marinate in this overnight, remove, bring marinade to a boil, set aside.

Bake ribs for about 6 hours in a 225 degree oven, basting with liquid (watered down marinade?), then glazing heavily and finishing for 5 minutes/side on a searing hot grill.

←

[scott123]

Irwin,

Welcome back! New York, huh? Did'ja get to eat any old school spare ribs while you were there?

So no basting, huh? I can see that. The sauce would just cook off during the prolonged cooking. Spare ribs definitely have the appearance of slow roasted unbasted pork.

Any idea of how long the meat is marinated for? Is it possible that the meat isn't marinated at all?

Are the ribs hung raw in the oven?

Btw, the roasting 'oven' is usually where you see the glowing red ducks hanging in, right? Or is that more of a drying area?

I spent a few hours doing web searches for char siu, Chinese bbq pork, Chinese spare ribs, red cooked pork and not one of the tens of recipes I came across mentioned apricots. Hoisin seemed a popular ingredient, as did ketchup. From an aesthetic perspective alone, these just can NOT be. The tomatoes in the ketchup would lend an opacity to the sauce, as I think, would hoisin. Both from an appearance and a flavor perspective, strained apricots/soy are a clear winner.

[wesza]

Sorry I'm still not cognizant about the new way of posting to include the quote:

Scott: my response> I did indeed enjoy several types of Spare Ribs in NYC and they were all very good, but I was privileged to be eating with Chinese friends who went out of the way to make sure I enjoyed the old style and the authentic styles.

Your correct about the no basting, also marinating is a matter of preference, most Restaurant's turnover is to large to generally do more then superficial marination. I feel its advisable if your using the larger Pork Rib Slabs [5 pounds up]. But if you use the 2/3 pounders or even 3 plus it's not going to be much different then just providing a pre-roasting dip or brush over to the pork slabs. One step that the professional roaster do perform is to allow the Pork Slabs to Hang for about 1 to 2 hours after being taken out of the Cooler in a area with a fan to let the meat set and dry on the exterior prior to Roasting. They are raw before Roasting.

I suggest making a net search for: Chinese Roasting Ovens so you can visualize how the meats, ducks etc are actually prepared. Also check Asian Restaurant Equipment for information. I actually have used these ovens in various types of Restaurants with adapters for Smoking and preparation of different types of meats and fish with great success.

Where you observe the Duck's, Chickens, Suckling Pig, Char Sue etc are Displays with Heat Lamps, glassed in per Health Department regulations for prepared meats. The hooks that they often Hang the Meats on are what they are hung from in the Oven while Cooking.

I'm generally curious about many of the recipes available for most ethnic foods often available to the public, probably most are acceptable, but very few are authentic. It's important to let your palette, taste buds and experience guide you to find the way by tasting, looking, touching and eating.

I have found very few dishes that I haven't been able to replicate, some times improve or adapt to anything I've previously tasted. But this comes through experience, curiosity, investigating and learning everything you can, just because it's what's your interested in doing out of a desire for knowledge, because it fun, and more important I was paid for doing recipes and menu's.

Being semi-retired the hardest thing I try to learn is to just be a customer.

Irwin

Irwin,

Welcome back! New York, huh? Did'ja get to eat any old school spare ribs while you were there?

So no basting, huh? I can see that. The sauce would just cook off during the prolonged cooking.  Spare ribs definitely have the appearance of slow roasted unbasted pork.

Any idea of how long the meat is marinated for? Is it possible that the meat isn't marinated at all?

Are the ribs hung raw in the oven?

Btw, the roasting 'oven' is usually where you see the glowing red ducks hanging in, right? Or is that more of a drying area?

I spent a few hours doing web searches for char siu, Chinese bbq pork, Chinese spare ribs, red cooked pork and not one of the tens of recipes I came across mentioned apricots. Hoisin seemed a popular ingredient, as did ketchup.  From an aesthetic perspective alone, these just can NOT be.  The tomatoes in the ketchup would lend an opacity to the sauce, as I think, would hoisin. Both from an appearance and a flavor perspective, strained apricots/soy are a clear winner.

←

Edited November 4, 2004 by wesza (log)

[scott123]

I'm generally curious about many of the recipes available for most ethnic foods often available to the public, probably most are acceptable, but very few are authentic. It's important to let your palette, taste buds and experience guide you to find the way by tasting, looking, touching and eating.

I am curious as well. As an Indian restaurant food fanatic, I have labored for years attempting to recreate my favorite dishes at home. Cookbooks/online recipes have been very little help. Thanks to intelligent members in forums like this, I've been able to accelerate my learning curve a bit.

I have found very few dishes that I haven't been able to replicate, some times improve or adapt to anything I've previously tasted. But this comes through experience, curiosity, investigating and learning everything you can, just because it's what's your interested in doing out of a desire for knowledge, because it fun, and more important I was paid for doing recipes and menu's.

I have been meaning to ask you how you became the keeper of the sacred spare rib knowledge Did you do it by tasting/trial and error or did you hire a short order Chinese chef for one of your restaurants?

[scott123]

I had some good old school chinese BBQ ribs this evening from a local place and my mind wandered toward the brand of soy sauce to use.

From the threads I've read here, it appears that Kikkoman is the brand of choice for NY Chinese restauranteurs. Is that what I should be seeking for this? Dark Kikkoman Soy? Or would you recommend another brand?

[wesza]

Scott:

About the "Soy Sauce" I'm pretty sure that not many "Chinese Restaurant's" would be using "Kikkoman Soy", certainly never saw it used in Hong Kong. The more popular soy's used in Hong Kong used to be , "Amoy" and, "Pearl River" Brand's as they were more readily available. There are many very good Soy's being marketed, try tasting several and use the one that you like best. There are many dishes that taste enhanced if you use "Fish Soy", especially in Thai, Vietnam or Philippine Dishes.

Indian Cuisine is very regional in flavor, taste, character and use of Heat in recipes, the different regional dishes are slowly becoming available in different metropolitan areas, I'm very impressed with the Punjabi Sweets that are being introduced together with many interesting vegetarian preparations that I'm certain will be fusioned into other Restaurants as Asia dishes have previously.

I have always tried to be innovative, plus observant and felt that in Hong Kong there was a niche market available for the "Spare Ribs" as a item for my Restaurant's. I actually was cognizant about how they were prepared by friends whose family operated several Chinese Restaurants in NYC who assisted when we put together, "Schmulka Bernstein's" NY C's first Kosher Chinese Restaurant combined with a Kosher Deli. In Hong Kong we operated various ethnic Chinese Restaurants that have remained popular since the 1960's as well as Bakeries and European Type places that are still in business. In 1965 on, Walter Cronkite's CBS News program, my comment was that it was about time we evened up the market, by opening a NYC style Deli, Bakery Restaurant that's still open.

I'm generally curious about many of the recipes available for most ethnic foods often available to the public, probably most are acceptable, but very few are authentic. It's important to let your palette, taste buds and experience guide you to find the way by tasting, looking, touching and eating.

I am curious as well. As an Indian restaurant food fanatic, I have labored for years attempting to recreate my favorite dishes at home. Cookbooks/online recipes have been very little help. Thanks to intelligent members in forums like this, I've been able to accelerate my learning curve a bit.

I have found very few dishes that I haven't been able to replicate, some times improve or adapt to anything I've previously tasted. But this comes through experience, curiosity, investigating and learning everything you can, just because it's what's your interested in doing out of a desire for knowledge, because it fun, and more important I was paid for doing recipes and menu's.

I have been meaning to ask you how you became the keeper of the sacred spare rib knowledge Did you do it by tasting/trial and error or did you hire a short order Chinese chef for one of your restaurants?

←

[scott123]

Irwin, thanks for your continuing input.

I made ribs, again today. I'm a man with a plan :)

I completely over did the ginger. I also went too short on my final broiling. The sauce ended up being too fruity and way too gingery. It's amazing the difference a few extra seconds under the broiler makes. I guess the torching of the sugars in a creme brulee involves the same small window for success. It was good, though. With careful timing of the glazing I was able to cut my apricot/sauce use to a mininum which is much more economical.

I've been comparing the restaurant ribs of last night to my homemade ribs in my mind. Besides the underbroiling/excess ginger, something is missing. Iron-y is the best adjective I can come up with. At first I was second guessing the omission of tomatoes (talk about the psychology of color!) but after rereading your ingredients today, I think it might be molasses from the brown sugar.

I'm also having a hugely difficult time finding an Apricot Jam that I'm happy with. I priced dried apricots and those are a little cheaper, although the sulfur dioxide is a bit of a turn off. I'll work out my apricot issues, though.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but could you think of any more potential ingredients than the ones you've listed? Here's what we have so far:

Some form of Apricot (Dried, strained puree, strained jam)

Soy Sauce

Brown or white sugar (next time I go with brown)

Vinegar

Sherry

Maggi Sauce

MSG

White Pepper

ginger

Dark Soy Sauce

red food coloring

Soybean oil

Is this pretty much everything? What are your feelings on a drop or two of toasted sesame seed oil?

This will be the last time I ask about potential ingredients. I promise.

The information about Kikkoman being the preferred soy sauce in NYC Chinese Retaurants has been mentioned by a few notable members of the forum, one being Fat Guy. I've been reading through all the old threads on soy sauce- he's mentioned it a few times. Here is one example. I'm pretty sure my local Asian grocer carries both "Amoy" and "Pearl River," so I'll definitely be checking those out.

It sounds like you and Chinese food go way back. Have you written any books? I'd think a book with a decent Chinese spare rib recipe alone would sell millions.

[franktex]

Hey Scott!

I, too, have tried COUNTLESS times to make these ribs, and have given up many times, so I can appreciate your persistence. Since I've tried so many times, I will give your recipe a shot. You might find this Char Siu discussion over on the China board, as there are a few like us that have tried, and tried, and tried....:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=55246

Also, here's a link with a rather lengthy but informative method. While most of the info iis for pork roast and not ribs, I think the flavor,marinde, process is pretty much the same as best as I can tell.

http://www.shiokadelicious.com/shiokadelic...6_char_sie.html

Edited November 27, 2004 by franktex (log)

[scott123]

Frank, welcome to the discussion :)

I've made this a handful of times so far and each time tweaked the recipe a little further. The last time I ommitted the ginger completely and felt that the taste did not suffer. I think I'm going to skip the ginger from now on.

Something is still missing. I haven't played around with brown sugar or white pepper, though. I also haven't had a chance to get a dark soy. I'm sure that will make a difference.

I have also been contemplating 5 spice. I think that's a long shot, though. I get the feeling that 5 spice doesn't get used all that much in Chinese restaurants.

I think the most important aspect to char siu is the final glaze/roasting. The apricot puree goes through a transformation when roasted. Too short and it has a tendency to be too fruity, too long and the sugars burn off and flavor is lost.

I have never been more certain about char siu being an apricot/soy sauce marinade, though. My results are just way too close to the real deal for it to be anything else.

Please let us know how your experimentation pans out.

[wesza]

Scott & Franktex:

I have enjoyed your progress in trying to make the ideal Ribs and Char Sui and will try and reiterate as well as adjust some of my previous comments.

The ingredient that I left out as a option that is used in most commercially prepared recipes was , "Maltose" as it requires more attention when being used and is most often only used for the final Glaze or finish to provide the patina or shine that will stand up for a longer time commercially. It's rarely used because it's more expensive and the Pork Rib's and Char Sui on display hanging are generally sold out quickly.

Most Pork Roasters rarely use any Ginger or Garlic in the preparation, but I feel that it does taste better if applied. White Pepper, Dark Soy, Red Color, Apricot Puree and Sugar are a given, anything else that you add is a preference or something you do to make it special. It will taste good even with Orange, Cherry, Pineapple or whatever you prefer as long as it compliments the Pork.

I did lurk on the postings about Char Sui and it was interesting to observe the variations suggested. I found that the best way to try to make your own recipe is to purchase some Ribs and Char Sui from any supplier that you favor, and compare it with your variations until you find a recipe that tastes better. After all your making it your way, they are attempting to make it for everyone.

In almost every retailer they use the same Marinade and Finish for both the Roast Pork and Ribs they merchandise. The places selling to mostly Asian patrons generally use "CT Pork Butts" for their Char Sui as it's a better mixture of Fat and Lean for Roasting and preferred by customers. The Roast Pork served in most Restaurants not located in ethnic areas is made from the Pork Loin. leaner and more consistent.

I hope that when you finally succeed in achieving the formula your most pleased with that you take some pictures and share your achievement with us all on eGullet.

Irwin

[phifly04]

Scott,Frank,Irwin,

Yes i too have been in search of the elusive char siu,i also tried the one that frank linked to,and i find it maddening that i cant nail this down,I do beleive that the dark soy will work better in the end product--How long do you marinate?.Ialways do low and slow ,then blast for the finish--One more quesion that REALLY bugs me.Why is it so damn hard to duplicate Chinese? Thanks for posting this Scott123

Dave s

[scott123]

Irwin, does the use of maltose have much of a history? Do you think that maltose was being used 20 years ago?

My biggest problem with the ginger has been finding a way to prep it. I grated it on the finest side of my box grater and it still gave me pretty large pieces that didn't cook right. Would you happen to know how Chinese restaurants prep their ginger?

Also, I've been contemplating the little bits of char siu in fried rice. If memory serves me correctly, sometimes they are part red/part brown but occasionally they are entirely red colored. Experience has shown me that the color from the marinade rarely penetrates more than about 1/4". Do they slice the pork into pieces and then coat it with the marinade? They don't roast those little pieces, correct? Do they stir fry them?

Dave, welcome to the discussion :)

My first attempt was an overnight marinade. Between what Irwin previously stated (high turnover=superficial marination), the loss of flavor from long roasting and my cost for apricot jam, I have mixed feelings about marination. I'm finding I get much more bang for buck if I allocate my apricot resources to my final glaze. Does this mean I don't marinate? No, but I use very little marinade and don't do it for that long.

Definitely slow and low, then a final glaze/high burst of heat at the end.

As far as the difficulty reproducing Chinese Restaurant food at home, well... I think many people here will tell you the heat from the burners makes a huge difference. I think it's more than that. I think it's a bit of a class issue. Old school NY Chinese restaurant food has historically been prepared by poor immigrants. These short order cooks aren't writing cookbooks. The people that are writing cookbooks are fairly removed from the process. Westerners usually just guess at what could be in the dishes and usually the guesses are way off. That's why you find so many crummy recipes online - they're just stabs in the dark. I think, to an extent, the same situation applies to Indian restaurant food as well. The cookbooks aren't being written by the right people.

[franktex]

I've got a small rack of St. Louis cut spares in my marinade as we speak, and will cook tonight. I'll post (maybe even a pic or two) to let you know how it comes out. I ended up adding a little more than apricot (preserves) and soy. I added a little hoisin and ginger as well-it just seemed like it needed something.

You'd asked earlier about boiling the ribs, and being a Texas BBQ'er, boiling ribs is sacreligious, but, it does, in fact, make them unbelievably tender, and I know for a fact that it is a method in many restaurants(not BBQ, of course), and probably can't hurt at all for Chinese BBQ ribs.

I do feel that at least overnight in the marinade helps though.

Just curious-have you guys ever asked the folks at your favorite Chinese BBQ joint about their methods? I have not-I guess it's one of those things I'd like to figure out on my own, or just too intimidated to ask.