New York Style Pizza in Seattle area

[jbonne]

more on Via Tribunale, from a visit last week ...

pizza was rather good, if not extraordinary. it's far closer to Neapolitan (or neo-Neapolitan, as described) than New York. the crust sogs a bit in the midst, but that's not out of line with a Grimaldi's or other experience. (it is VERY out of line with a Pepe's experience, but New Haven pizza -- a superior beast to New York -- is a whole other story.)

inexplicably, the pizza came neither sliced nor with any useful implement to slice it. the knives on the table were so dull i'm not sure they could spread butter, so they weren't much help.

other issues: the service is generally pretty bad. our peppy but otherwise lost server kept asking us if we needed help with the wine list. there's three people sitting at the table, one of whom knows almost every winemaker in the state, the other two of whom write about wine. i think we can parse a wine list. (what we needed, dear, were glasses of water, sliced pizza and appropriate tableware.)

the hostess and some of the other floor staff seemed a bit more on the ball, and the bartender comped us after pouring the wrong wine (though i'm still not convinced i ever got my glass of primativo) but they've got to figure out whether they want to function as a bar with pizza or a restaurant, and then tweak accordingly. right now, it's one step from chaos.

[kiliki]

I don't know that it is ALWAYS this way in Italy, since usually when there I ate pizza by the slice from takeout places, but I did once or twice order it in a restaurant and it came unsliced. So perhaps Via is staying true to the Italian way of serving pizza.

[OnlyTheBest]

more on Via Tribunale, from a visit last week ...

pizza was rather good, if not extraordinary. it's far closer to Neapolitan (or neo-Neapolitan, as described) than New York. the crust sogs a bit in the midst, but that's not out of line with a Grimaldi's or other experience. (it is VERY out of line with a Pepe's experience, but New Haven pizza -- a superior beast to New York -- is a whole other story.)

inexplicably, the pizza came neither sliced nor with any useful implement to slice it.  the knives on the table were so dull i'm not sure they could spread butter, so they weren't much help.

other issues: the service is generally pretty bad.  our peppy but otherwise lost server kept asking us if we needed help with the wine list.  there's three people sitting at the table, one of whom knows almost every winemaker in the state, the other two of whom write about wine.  i think we can parse a wine list. (what we needed, dear, were glasses of water, sliced pizza and appropriate tableware.)

the hostess and some of the other floor staff seemed a bit more on the ball, and the bartender comped us after pouring the wrong wine (though i'm still not convinced i ever got my glass of primativo) but they've got to figure out whether they want to function as a bar with pizza or a restaurant, and then tweak accordingly. right now, it's one step from chaos.

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It has been my expecience in Italy that pizza is usually eaten with a knife and fork as you would anything that needed cutting....and eaten one bite at a time...not picked up as a piece to be bitten off of.

When i first went as a 16 year old...I was confused about it till i was shown by my elders how to eat it properly. You dont need a really sharp knife...just a plain old knife and fork...thats it.

Sounds to me that Via Tribunale is doing it the real Italian way. I look forward to trying it.

[tsquare]

My recent visit to Italy - pizza was served:

cut into bite sized pieces (Milan),

whole with knife and fork (Venice), or

with pizza shears (Pienza). Almost bought a stash of these as gifts - they come with funky colored handles. The bakery / pizza place in Milan used these to cut up "slices" prior to serving.

[MsRamsey]

We had no problems cutting the pizza at Via Tribunali with the knives they provide <shrug>

I doubt the staff is privy to whether or not someone is a wine expert, unless they're psychic.

[olivina]

The one thing I know for sure about Italian food is that nobody can say "for sure" how a dish is supposed to be served or prepared unless they refer to a specific town, and then maybe even a specific section of town, or street or someone's mother. So, pizza in Naples is different from pizza in Florence or Milano or my mamma's house in Lucca. Kinda like NYC different from Chicago.

Most of the time though, a pizzeria in Italy will serve pizza unsliced. Pizza from a bar or a bakery comes sliced in rectangles. Usually the plates in a pizzeria are bigger than the pizza, making it easier to slice with a fork and knife. My relatives consider it bad form to eat pizza (or anything, even fruit) with your fingers. But I've heard that in a famous pizzeria in Naples, its ok to cut the thing in half and pick it up, fold it NYC style and eat it over your plate... Also, I know that styles range in Naples from crisp crust to really soggy tomato soaked crust.

I think that instead of worrying about whats authentic or not, decide for yourself which style you prefer and eat with happiness.

Carla

[jbonne]

So perhaps Via is staying true to the Italian way of serving pizza.

i've seen it both ways. if they're aiming for authenticity, they need to get some utensils for the job. unless our table was somehow privy to an unusually crappy batch of flatware. truly, the knife was so dull i almost ripped the damn pie apart.

I doubt the staff is privy to whether or not someone is a wine expert, unless they're psychic.

nope, but it's all about tone. one thing to ask, "is there something on the list that looks good to you?" another entirely to ask, "can i help you with the wine list?" as though we were a bunch of blithering idiots.

yeah, these are subtleties, but it's a huge difference in tone -- a la salespeople who ask "is that all?" vs. "anything else for you?" -- and one that proper training should address. plus, we'd looked at the list for about two minutes. when you have a list that tops out over $100, it's not unreasonable for patrons to take a few minutes deciding. we ain't talkin' about house Chianti here.

[wesza]

I tried the place, my opinion is that it's very, "Contrived". But it has a attitude, that seems 1/2 Assed. Seems to reflect lack of capitol, little panache and nobody watching the store upfront to provide personality.

The , "Pizza's" are comparable to those served at Wolfgang Puck's former location at Harbor Steps, but not as consistent. I'm not sure the oven is as hot as it should be for Neapolitan Pizza quality, the flour may not be right either.

It was a interesting, but not satisfying experience. Before I try it again i'll give it several months to evolve into whatever.

Irwin

[MsRamsey]

I thought Via Tribunali was gorgeous. The place used to be a garage, and its transformation to me is beautiful. If attempting to appeal to hipsters because they're open late and are located in the hippest section of Capitol Hill equals "contrived," then yes, it's contrived. If playing techno and having goth-y and astoundingly hot waitresses constitutes "attitude," hey, it fits in with the neighborhood. They will in general be serving a young, partying clientele. The husband and I do not look hip whatsoever, went in fairly late, and were treated very kindly by the staff. We had fun watching the little diva pizza chef from Naples do his stuff. They've only just opened. Give them a chance.

Edited to add: I might be missing something, but "Can I help you with the wine list?" just doesn't sound condescending to me.

Edited December 9, 2004 by MsRamsey (log)

[SeaGal]

nope, but it's all about tone.  one thing to ask, "is there something on the list that looks good to you?"  another entirely to ask, "can i help you with the wine list?" as though we were a bunch of blithering idiots. 

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I often need (and welcome) help with the wine list, and yet do not consider myself an idiot, blithering or otherwise.

[Ye-Ye Girl]

The Dude & I visited Via Tribunali a couple of weeks ago. I agree with MsRamsey on the space...I thought the transformation from garage to restaurant was well done.

The service was punctuated with strange timing...We ordered our pizza about 10 minutes after we ordered the Salumi platter to start, but got the pizza no later than 4 or 5 minutes after we ordered it, and still no Salumi platter. That was probably because one person took our wine and appetizer order, while someone else took the pizza order. A third person took the dessert order, and yet another staff member brought out the dessert. The check was also way off when we got it. But, the service was friendly and helpful, if a bit disjointed.

The Salumi platter was fabulous, as we expected. When the pizza was delivered to the table, it was uncut, but came with a table knife, and the explanation that the whole pizza was "in the tradition of Naples." The flavors and overall quality of the pizza were wonderful. The crust was very thin - we thought too much so, because the middle of our slices definitely did not hold the weight of the toppings. We asked our server about it. He first explained that it could be partly because our pizza toppings included fresh ricotta as well as mozzarella, and the high liquid content of the cheeses would perhaps produce more moisture to be absorbed by the crust. He went on to explain that Dino, the pizza chef from Naples, was very adamant about authenticity, and insisted that the thickness of crust we experienced was the way Neopolitan pizza was traditionally done. He also mentioned that Dino was not (and he thought hard before he put it this way) "particularly open to suggestions" about changing the pizza. Dino was also attributed with saying that if the crust doesn't hold up the toppings, just fold it in half and eat it that way, like they do in Naples. We don't have problems with folding pizza, so that's what we did.

We still like our crust a tiny bit thicker than we had that evening, but also thought we'd come back to try a different pizza that didn't have so much moisture content to see if the crust held up a little better.

We chalked the service timing issues up to new restaurant syndrome (I think they'd been open about a week at the time), and agreed to go back sometime after things have had a chance to settle down some.

[jbonne]

Edited to add:  I might be missing something, but "Can I help you with the wine list?" just doesn't sound condescending to me.

one essential aspect of service is that the patron never lose face.

a good application of this is the date test: if you're on a date and trying to impress someone, is your treatment at the hands of your server going to take some shine off your polish?

it's a stupid test, granted, because hopefully we all judge people on better things than their facility with a wine list, but it's also invaluable, because you're going to get people like that as customers, and you need to make them feel as welcome and wise as the well-aged gourmand. the Maccioni family has perfected this, for example. they understand that the human relationship is the most important part of good restauranteurship.

there are plenty of ways to accomplish it, but the best is to play up to the customer, just on the off-chance they are indeed a world-class connoisseur. (because they very well might be.) talented servers know how to strike this balance without being snooty.

a question like "do you see some bottles there that interest you?" gives the Johnny Apples of the world a chance to hold forth on why this sangiovese is the perfect choice, &c., while allowing someone like SeaGal to ask for any help without feeling at all diminished for doing so. it's a silly bit of social engineering, but then, all service is a silly bit of social engineering.

it's also all about tone, and the tone we got was very distinctly one of, "Can I help you make up your minds about what stupid wine to drink, you indecisive morons? It's late in my shift, I'm tired and I don't have time to dally with you wasting my time. It's all a bunch of rotten grape juice anyway." the tone was a clear indicator that she didn't care whether we were going to order a $10 bottle of swill or a $100 amarone, and that she didn't really know the difference aside from her larger tip from the latter.

i don't mind Tribunali's hipper-than-thou vibe, though it's not my personal preference. but that too often bleeds into undertrained, smartass service that's essentially become the norm in America. and that's exactly what we got there.

aside from the wine, there were several other "have you decided yet?" checkbacks that drove me absolutely nuts, and an only half-hidden look of disdain when we ordered two pizzas and a meal-sized salad for three of us -- at 930p at night, in the bar area, in addition to a $45 bottle of wine.

the server was at best only marginally familiar with the menu, and it sounds as though we didn't even get the knife and explanation that Ye-Ye Girl got. (that simple gesture would have gone a long way to improving my assessment.)

in short, the whole performance -- which improved notably when another server seemed to step in and help later in the meal -- showed that she couldn't have cared less whether we were enjoying our meal. and that is the cardinal sin of service. it doesn't sound like Tribunali's service is uniformly that way, but the fact they hire people like that shows they aren't doing a good enough job to present a good public face.

[ScorchedPalate]

I really don't mean to be snide, but if you're expecting Maccioni-level service, then you need to be at Le Cirque, not Via Tribunali.

[[Edited to add: ...and I am the biggest b*tch I know about bad service.]]

~A

the Maccioni family has perfected this, for example. they understand that the human relationship is the most important part of good restauranteurship.

Edited December 10, 2004 by ScorchedPalate (log)

[LEdlund]

one essential aspect of service is that the patron never lose face.

It must be a case of "it's not what you say, but how you say it". I don't think asking if you need help with the wine list causes the patron to lose face. I'm sure there's more to the story than is able to be conveyed..........

[jbonne]

I really don't mean to be snide, but if you're expecting Maccioni-level service, then you need to be at Le Cirque, not Via Tribunali.

[[Edited to add: ...and I am the biggest b*tch I know about bad service.]]

i don't expect that level -- the Maccionis are exemplary of it -- but i do expect these things to be covered in standard service training. plenty of places in Seattle have wonderful service. Palace Kitchen can be terrific (and appropriate to their setting) though it's become more uneven lately. Le Pichet is almost uniformly great. Ditto Sambar. Note that none of these are vastly more expensive than Tribunali. In fact, Tribunali could copy Palace's vibe wholesale and nail the perfect balance.

In each case, the servers seem to be having fun and enjoying the setting. They make customers feel as though they enjoy serving them. (Whether they do or not is irrelevant; it's about putting a pleasing human face on a restaurant.)

All this is very much a matter of tone that, LEdlund is quite correct, can't really be expressed online. A tone of "Here's your darn pizza, you wanna a drink with that?" is only marginally acceptable in the local pie-slinging joint; not at all so in a pizza place that aspires to something more. But that's exactly what we got.

[tighe]

Edited to add:  I might be missing something, but "Can I help you with the wine list?" just doesn't sound condescending to me.

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I think any time you ask someone "if they need help", it has the potential to come across as being condescending. Safer to ask, "can I answer any questions?" or something along those lines.

[tomidouglas]

I just moved back to Portland from NYC (Park Slope, Brooklyn to be specific) and I have to say, there really is no way to make NY style pizza at home. For one thing, the crust is key and it really is in the water....nyc has some of the best and cleanest water in the country (seriously) and there is something in the mineral content that makes the crust...well, the way it is.

Also, the flour is an issue....most every pizzerian in ny uses imported italian flour which has a different gluten ration. And last, its all about the coal oven and the super freakin' hot oven.

The combination is what does it...and until I moved to NY 3 years ago I thought the whole east coast pizza thing was a myth..but there is something eerily familiar in every slice I ate.

Oh, and the topping situation....thin crust,thin sauce, and just enough cheese to bind it.

My boyfriend is from Chicago and he hated nyc pizza...its a very specific taste. The closest I've seen out west is (funnily enough) Escape From New York pizza on NW 23rd in Portland. The crust is too thick but they do a fine job with the topping situation.

[bbqer]

I just moved back to Portland from NYC (Park Slope, Brooklyn to be specific) and I have to say, there really is no way to make NY style pizza at home. For one thing, the crust is key and it really is in the water....nyc has some of the best and cleanest water in the country (seriously) and there is something in the mineral content that makes the crust...well, the way it is.

Also, the flour is an issue....most every pizzerian in ny uses imported italian flour which has a different gluten ration. And last, its all about the coal oven and the super freakin' hot oven.

The combination is what does it...and until I moved to NY 3 years ago I thought the whole east coast pizza thing was a myth..but there is something eerily familiar in every slice I ate.

Oh, and the topping situation....thin crust,thin sauce, and just enough cheese to bind it.

My boyfriend is from Chicago and he hated nyc pizza...its a very specific taste. The closest I've seen out west is (funnily enough) Escape From New York pizza on NW 23rd in Portland. The crust is too thick but they do a fine job with the topping situation.

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Good points, Tomi, especially about the water. I've heard that as a reason we can't successfully imitate/duplicate NYC bagels here on the Left Coast. Since Via Tribunali has attempted to duplicate Italian water, perhaps someone ought to see if they can duplicate NYC water as well.

[sfspanky]

I hate to burst any ex-New Yorker's bubble, but I have to put this myth to bed everytime it comes up.

Water does not make any bread better or worse. First of all, water does not add flavor. Secondly, mineral content does not add flavor either. Mineral content only affects the fermentation rate of the bread. Being that minerals are food for yeast, hard water (high mineral content) will speed up fermentation and softer water will have a slower fermentation rate. Any baker with fundamental knowlege of baking science can adjust the water temperature, mixing method and percentage of yeast to adjust to any mineral content and it is extremely rare that any baker has to do anything to the water. The only thing that adds flavor and texture to bread is quality flour, lactic acid and acedic acid. Milk, butter and sugars add flavor and affect texture, but we are talking about pizza dough here, which should never have anything other than flour, water, salt and yeast.

I was just back in New York and can honestly say that I can make better crust than any of the pizzerias that I went to, even on my worst day. I went to Totonno's in Coney Island, Lombardi's, John's on Bleeker, Patsy's in Harlem and Grimaldi's. Yes, much better than most crusts you will see on the West Coast, but not better than what I, or any knowledgable baker can make.

The whole concept of changing a mineral content of water to replicate that of New York or Italy is a marketing concept that is preying upon the people that buy into this myth.

I will get off my soap box now.

Brian Spangler

Scholls Public House

Owner

[trillium]

How funny. The chatter in this thread was getting to me, and I decided to just go ahead and tell you all about Scholls Public House even though it is not in Seattle (neaner, neaner, neaner). Brian beat me to the punch. Check his pizza out next time you're in pdx. I don't know if it is NY style because I have not eaten pizza there, but I have eaten pizza from Venezia to Agrigento, and his can hold its own.

regards,

trillium

[olivina]

The whole concept of changing a mineral content of water to replicate that of New York or Italy is a marketing concept that is preying upon the people that buy into this myth.

I totally agree with you, spanky. And the idea that a certificate from the Vera Pizza Napolitana society is going to get you closer to the Naples experience is also a marketing ploy...

[tighe]

I totally agree with you, spanky. And the idea that a certificate from the Vera Pizza Napolitana society is going to get you closer to the Naples experience is also a marketing ploy...

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You aren't possibly suggesting that one of these certificates would be obtainable through some means other than rigorious training, long practice and devotion to the craft, are you?

[olivina]

I totally agree with you, spanky. And the idea that a certificate from the Vera Pizza Napolitana society is going to get you closer to the Naples experience is also a marketing ploy...

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You aren't possibly suggesting that one of these certificates would be obtainable through some means other than rigorious training, long practice and devotion to the craft, are you?

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well, please correct me if i'm wrong, but the last time i looked into it:

Certain rules had to be followed such as no oil in the pizza dough, 100% wood fire and only "San Marzano" tomatoes allowed.

Also $500 per year.

I'm not saying that a qualified VPN pizzeria is bad. Some of the rules could improve pizza standards. Its just I think people should use their own judgement and tastebuds regardless of claims or certificates of authenticity or blessings from the pope.

[sfspanky]

The VPN certification, in my opinion, means nothing and is used by many as a marketing ploy. Yes, there are those out there that have a VPN certification because they truly believe and follow the strict rules of the traditional Neapolitan version, but the certification speaks nothing of the skills of the pizziaolo. I have been to VPN certified pizzerias that were...well, not good.

These rules are -

1. Wood fired oven only

2. Pizza size is 12'-13"

3. Dough is made from water, flour, yeast and salt only and the flour must be a type 00

4. Dough must be made and shaped by hand only

5. Tomoatoes must be from San Marazano

6. Mozzarella must be di Bufala

Pizza is a personal thing and everyone has their favorite style. The only thing that you should pay attention to is the product. It is just pizza and the best pizza in the world is the one that you enjoy the most.

Brian Spangler

[Deborah]

We went to Piecora's again this week and I thought the crust was better last time. The crust really reminds me of toasted french bread--somewhat dry, crunchy, and airy. Last time it had some of these qualities but still had some chew to it.