No Smoking in Restos in France including Paris

[John Talbott]

This Forum is a “happening place” and the recent thread on US/FR culinary cultural differences shows how active we are. But, there seems to be no subject more generative of passion in this Forum than smoking in French restaurants (leave aside smoking inside and outside the RER cars, hospitals and art galleries).

I have a self-imposed rule I use a propos criticizing persons/customs/practices/etc in other countries/cultures/religions/etc.; to wit, keep the mouth firmly shut until others criticize themselves, then it’s “free ball”….“all men come in” time.

Full Disclosure: I have never inhaled (tobacco smoke), often note smokers/smoking in my reviews and change tables when overwhelmed with fumes. That said, I’m also not as sensitive as my wife Colette and others are to smoke/smokers in Paris restos. And, since I am a guest-worker, I take it as gospel that “when in Rome…..” That is, if “they” want it this way, so be it, I have no vote (not this year, but next year I will.)

However, two items today prompted a revision of my American stereotype of French citizens’ attitudes (this mind you, one day after an IPSOS poll showed that only 1% of the French polled wanted Jacques Chirac back in 2007) – specifically - that they tolerate if not encourage smoking, think individual freedoms trump public health and don’t believe some research (e.g., the U.S. Surgeon General’s Report – now 42 years old) because it comes from an Anglo-Saxon country.

Item 1 – a letter to the editor in today's Metro entitled “Kamakize smokers,” that essentially attacked a prior article that said that deaths caused by smoking are no worse than those caused by alcohol, fatigue, drugs, obesity and hunger. The author’s (Vincent’s) point; smokers are “serial killers” [sic] because second-hand smoke kills, whereas the other conditions are self-limiting (e.g. one kills only oneself).

Item 2 – Conrail, our friendly neighborhood rail system, is banning smoking (as did the TGV’s earlier), now, well, soon (there’s a grace period until passengers are informed).

So “what’s the point Dad?” I cannot but quote our common-law poet laureate, M. Dylan - “the times they are a changin’.”

[menton1]

I'm sure it won't be too long before France, like its fellow EU members Italy and Ireland, will ban smoking in restaurants.

As a matter of fact, a NYT article has talked of a new bill to ban smoking in restos in my native New Jersey.

Its amazing, smoking is now banned in so many countries, US States and municipalities, with restaurants and bars no worse for wear after the ban. But the same tired arguments persist in protest before the new laws are passed, such as, loss of business, individual rights, etc. You would think the protesters might look at the huge numbers of countries, states and cities where smoking is interdit and realize that revenues are not affected adversely, and that life goes on normally after such bans.

[Felice]

I was in the wine bar Fish, La Boissonerie last week for lunch and noticed a sign saying they were now 100% non-smoking. It was the very first day, so I'm not sure how it was going, but will definitely ask the next time I am there.

[John Talbott]

I was in the wine bar Fish, La Boissonerie last week for lunch and noticed a sign saying they were now 100% non-smoking.  It was the very first day, so I'm not sure how it was going, but will definitely ask the next time I am there.

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Outstanding, joining one of my favorites - La Cerisaie.

Bye the bye, I just noticed that Time Out Paris notes no smoking rooms and wheelchair access.

[raisab]

I called Pre Verre yesterday for a reservation and was caught completely off guard when they asked Fumeur ou Non-Fumeur.

Fish is now non-smoking? I will be eating dinner at Pre Verre Friday but I will finish off the night at Fish or start if off or both.

[John Talbott]

In a recent JDD article on prohibiting smoking in bars and restos, Marie-Christine C. from Department 93 suggested that if smokers were going to be required by the "Secu" to pay for their lung cancer care, eaters of charcuterie should pay for their cardio-vascular illnesses. Just a risible thought for the weekend.

[David Lebovitz]

What happened to the no-smoking resolution that the Parliament started to discuss this fall (then put aside)...Is it scheduled to come up again?

(I just spent an evening drinking really lovely wine at Villaret, surrounded by an unfortunate cloud of smoke.)

[bleudauvergne]

The other day I was dining with friends in a small cafe and our neighbors lit up en masse while we were in the middle of our main course. It wasn't very nice, especially since there was a non-smoking sign - I think this may be an issue for a long time to come, I'm afraid.

[John Talbott]

For those too eager to await my posting this week's "Digest" - there's news on the no smoking front. In yesterday's Le Figaroscope's “Dossier” entitled Smoking-No Smoking, Colette Monsat et al cover the waterfront of no smoking places, dividing them into several categories:

Gastronomic

Atelier de Joël Robuchon

Table du Lancaster

Spoon

Jules Verne

Bistros

L’Epi Dupin

La Cerisaie

Florimond

Stéphane Martin

Mon Vieil Ami

Le Temps au temps

Le Vin dans les voiles

La Table d’Hélène

Vegetarian and Bio

Aquarius

La Bonne Heure

Biotifull Place

Bioboa

Rose Bakery

Cojean

Eatme

Naked

Mariage Frères

Intermittently

Ploum

Domaine de Lintillac

For those interested in the law and European trends, there's a full discussion.

[Fai Jackson]

I was in Paris in December and had dinner at Le Pamphlet. I was seated in the non smoking room along with another couple or two (these were the only tables available--but fine with me since I hate smoke, especially when I am eating) By the end of the meal, only myself and a French couple were left in the room. The French couple were across the room (about 12 feet) from me. The gentleman asked if I would mind if he smoked and since he was about as far away as the old smoking/non smoking divide, I said okay. As soon as he lit up Madam came into the room and had him extiguish his cigarette. So, some places are embracing the non smoking rule. I think a law can only be enforced if the Patrons and their customers insist on it.

[Dave Hatfield]

Sacre Bleu! Will no one defend the smell of France?

The smell of black tobacco (all those wonderful Gitanes & Gaulois) and cheap wine instantly puts one in France. Eating a filet pur avec fries without that smell isn't the same. It lacks a certain je ne sais quoi!

Perhaps one can bottle the smell without the actual smoke.

Countries that lose their smell give up a bit of their soul; my bit of philosophy for the day.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Sacre Bleu! Will no one defend the smell of France?

The smell of black tobacco (all those wonderful Gitanes & Gaulois) and cheap wine instantly puts one in France....

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Add diesel exhaust and I think you've nailed it!

[John Talbott]

I was in Paris in December  and had dinner at Le Pamphlet.  I was seated in the non smoking room along with another couple or two (these were the only tables available--but fine with me since I hate smoke, especially when I am eating)  By the end of the meal, only myself and a French couple were left in the room.  The French couple were across the room (about 12 feet) from me.  The gentleman asked if I would mind if he smoked and since he was about as far away as the old smoking/non smoking divide, I said okay.  As soon as he lit up Madam came into the room and had him extiguish his cigarette.  So, some places are embracing the non smoking rule.  I think a law can only be enforced if the Patrons and their customers insist on it.

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You know, I've that happen a lot.

What's much worse, however, is people, say on trains (in the bad old days) or planes (in the really bad old, old days) who would sit in no-smoking (I assume because they hated smoke around them), go off, smoke and return to no-smoking reeking).

[Dave Hatfield]

What's much worse, however, is people, say on trains (in the bad old days) or planes (in the really bad old, old days) who would sit in no-smoking

I have a life long non smoking friend who always sat in smoking on planes & trains.

Said he met more interesting people there.

[gastrominator]

What's much worse, however, is people, say on trains (in the bad old days) or planes (in the really bad old, old days) who would sit in no-smoking

I have a life long non smoking friend who always sat in smoking on planes & trains.

Said he met more interesting people there.

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I totally agree. It comes with the definition of 'sybarite'. Only true americans would expect to find real non-smoking areas in France. It comes with the culture.

[Felice]

As a customer I can’t say that I mind smoke too much and even slip and smoke now and then, however, if you’ve ever worked in a smokey bar or restaurant, you would understand how miserable it is for the employees. And in the US, it's the employees who are being protected, not the customers.

I think that France will go the same way soon and according to most polls I have read, the majority of the French support a smoking ban.

[John Talbott]

it's the employees who are being protected, not the customers. 

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Interesting point Felice. I was in Toronto last week and there is a campaign currently on the radio featuring a woman (an ex-waitress now deceased) saying she had never smoked but developed lung cancer from second-hand smoke; her employer speaks movingly as well. I was quite impressed with its sophistication and yet blunt power.

I don't think it's off-topic to point interested persons to the Heather Crowe update and campaign link since the issue is certainly food-related.

Edited by John Talbott to add links.

Edited May 30, 2006 by John Talbott (log)

[Ptipois]

I totally agree. It comes with the definition of 'sybarite'. Only true americans would expect to find real non-smoking areas in France. It comes with the culture.

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With whose culture?

Edited May 30, 2006 by Ptipois (log)

[Carlsbad]

I have to agree. I am an (old) American who lived with smoke in restaurants and bars for most of my life, and now I have seen what no smoke can mean. I can enjoy my cocktail(s) and my dinner without some inconsiderate person blowing their smoke my way. When I go home, I don't have to take a shower to get rid of the smoke smell. If you think about it, isn't it a little weird that people suck tocacco smoke into their lungs all day and then blow it where other people have to breathe it? The real question should be: where did the idea that people can create smoke in public places that everyone else has to breathe come from? Fighting pollution from cars and factories seems universal, but tobacco smoke in a closed environment is accepted?

I live in Southern California, where the restaurants really aren't that good. When people in Paris, where the restaurants really are that good, have a choice, I'm sure they will change things. Especially if they listen to people who work in a smoke-filled environment everyday. Those who miss that great smell of smoke can breath into a special mask. Okay, I'm off my soap box. Sorry.....

[gastrominator]

I totally agree. It comes with the definition of 'sybarite'. Only true americans would expect to find real non-smoking areas in France. It comes with the culture.

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With whose culture?

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Both. The United States of America is a relatively new nation and has not yet gone through the cycles that are necessary to create a true 'culture' found in countries that have had thousands of years of history with wars, uprisings, decadence etc.

When the french, as most europeans, go abroad they do not generally expect foreigners to speak or understand their language as do almost all americans. It is exactly the same comparison with smoking. The primary reason that many restaurants offer non-smoking sections is due to the american demand, which is understandable due to the fact that the americans leave a lot of money here. But the number of times I have heard americain people looking for 'local bistros' with 'no tourists' and 'non-smoking sections' it is hilarious! It is obviously not an authentic experience, then as this is part of french life and french culture.

California does not exist in France and vice-versa. They both have their positive aspects, and that is the reason to go to both places. I would sacrifice someone smoking next to me in Ledoyen so that I may enjoy a filet of tubot with black truffles on a bed of fork-mashed potatoes with truffle emulsion, I can say.

[David Lebovitz]

The city of Paris is taking a survey relating to banning smoking in public places.

Paris Smoking Survey

(Unfortunately they don't ask you about what you think of someone chain-smoking at the adjacent table at Villaret when you're trying to drink a Domaine de la Romanée-Conti and they won't take a pause.)

[gastrominator]

(Unfortunately they don't ask you about what you think of someone chain-smoking at the adjacent table at Villaret when you're trying to drink a Domaine de la Romanée-Conti and they won't take a pause.)

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Sure. I'm with you on this one. That's why governments should super-tax cigarettes so that they cost €100 a packet. The trouble is that they make too much money from taxation so this will never happen.

[bleudauvergne]

I totally agree. It comes with the definition of 'sybarite'. Only true americans would expect to find real non-smoking areas in France. It comes with the culture.

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With whose culture?

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Both. The United States of America is a relatively new nation and has not yet gone through the cycles that are necessary to create a true 'culture' found in countries that have had thousands of years of history with wars, uprisings, decadence etc.

When the french, as most europeans, go abroad they do not generally expect foreigners to speak or understand their language as do almost all americans. It is exactly the same comparison with smoking. The primary reason that many restaurants offer non-smoking sections is due to the american demand, which is understandable due to the fact that the americans leave a lot of money here. But the number of times I have heard americain people looking for 'local bistros' with 'no tourists' and 'non-smoking sections' it is hilarious! It is obviously not an authentic experience, then as this is part of french life and french culture.

California does not exist in France and vice-versa. They both have their positive aspects, and that is the reason to go to both places. I would sacrifice someone smoking next to me in Ledoyen so that I may enjoy a filet of tubot with black truffles on a bed of fork-mashed potatoes with truffle emulsion, I can say.

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Its strange but I can't see at all this comparison with English language and non-smoking as two things wrongfully imposed on the French by tourists. Most of my French friends can't stand being smoked at while they're eating, and always request non-smoking if they have a choice. Furthermore, I have dined with French people who ask smokers to stop when their meal is served, and their request has been honored without comment or conflict. I'd say claiming smoky restaurants to be a 'French thing' is an exaggerated cultural stereotype.

[gastrominator]

I totally agree. It comes with the definition of 'sybarite'. Only true americans would expect to find real non-smoking areas in France. It comes with the culture.

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With whose culture?

←

Both. The United States of America is a relatively new nation and has not yet gone through the cycles that are necessary to create a true 'culture' found in countries that have had thousands of years of history with wars, uprisings, decadence etc.

When the french, as most europeans, go abroad they do not generally expect foreigners to speak or understand their language as do almost all americans. It is exactly the same comparison with smoking. The primary reason that many restaurants offer non-smoking sections is due to the american demand, which is understandable due to the fact that the americans leave a lot of money here. But the number of times I have heard americain people looking for 'local bistros' with 'no tourists' and 'non-smoking sections' it is hilarious! It is obviously not an authentic experience, then as this is part of french life and french culture.

California does not exist in France and vice-versa. They both have their positive aspects, and that is the reason to go to both places. I would sacrifice someone smoking next to me in Ledoyen so that I may enjoy a filet of tubot with black truffles on a bed of fork-mashed potatoes with truffle emulsion, I can say.

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Its strange but I can't see at all this comparison with English language and non-smoking as two things wrongfully imposed on the French by tourists. Most of my French friends can't stand being smoked at while they're eating, and always request non-smoking if they have a choice. Furthermore, I have dined with French people who ask smokers to stop when their meal is served, and their request has been honored without comment or conflict. I'd say claiming smoky restaurants to be a 'French thing' is an exaggerated cultural stereotype.

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I would imagine that would depend on what type of restaurant we would be considering. If you go to the local 'Café du commerce' at lunchtime(which tends to be a 'true' stereotype, may I add, such as Bison Futé gives the 'weekends de grand départ', the ballon de rouge a midi etc) it tends to be rather smoky, no?

Anyway, that aside, I did not mention 'smoky' restaurants. Restaurants (certainly the ones that us gastronomes tend to go to) where people smoke are not generally smoky. I avoid smoky restaurants like the plague as enjoying good food in this type of environment is rather difficult.

Smoky bars, on the other hand, is a completely different subject, as most good bars tend to be relatvely smoky - take the Hemingway, for example.

[Felice]

The primary reason that many restaurants offer non-smoking sections is due to the american demand, which is understandable due to the fact that the americans leave a lot of money here.

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I thought it was because of "la Loi Evain", non?