ethical question re: teaching recipes

[jim_jimmers]

i have been cooking macaroons and eclairs for a local business. the volume has been low. (the business owner has not marketed it at all.) i was making her something like 50 macaroons and 2 doz eclairs a week.

i went to her last week and told her i was going to have to stop cooking for her. i told her that i was too busy at my other (real) job. that is partly true. mostly i just came to hate coming home and doing all this stuff from my kitchen.

anyway, i told her my news and she was not phased. apparently she was too busy being irked at the fact that i was teaching the macaroon recipe at a local cooking class. i had told her i was going to do it 2 months ago. and to be fair, she's awfully busy and probably forgot. but she was p!ssed. and she asked me to not teach it.

now these recipes are mine. i got them at culinary school. and it's not like they can't be found on the web. in the interest of playing nice i told her i wouldn't. but i so wanted to tell her that they were my recipes and i wasn't cooking for her anymore anyway, so she could take a flying leap. and besides this was all 2 days before the class. she could have picked up the phone and let me know 3 weeks ago when the schedule came out.

has anyone here ever run into this sort of thing before?

[andiesenji]

The only way she can hold you to a "no competition" pact is if it is in writing, agreed to prior to your beginning to bake for her and you are adequately recompensed for the exclusitivity. Also this generally refers only to commercial competition. A retailer will ask for an exclusive for a particular area, i.e., within a 1 mile, 2 mile or 5 mile radius or similar limit and outside that area you can sell your product to other retailers.

Without an exclusive compact or contract, you can sell to businesses that are next door to each other.

If she is not paying you for an exclusive then you can teach whatever you want. After all, the people in your class are not really going to be in competition with her.

If she isn't putting up notices of your product and not pushing it then she probably doesn't really understand how having a special product can ratchet up a business such as that.

[chefpeon]

Seems pretty clear to me she really has nothing to say about it.

It's your recipes and your business.....

you didn't sign any contract (did you?) so there's nothing legally binding.

She never seemed to order enough to make it worth your while, so you really

owe her nothing.

Maybe you should invite her to take your class......

[lovebenton0]

And perhaps a course in good business practices.

[jim_jimmers]

thanks guys. that gives me some validation.

[chezcherie]

now these recipes are mine.  i got them at culinary school.  and it's not like they can't be found on the web.

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my question would be: did you develop them yourself while attending culinary school? or are the the recipes used at your school? because in the second case, they aren't really your recipes. (in the first case, of course, they are.)

sigh...edited because, as i stated in a post yesterday, i'm really bad at math. in this case, i got my "first" and "second" confused....now, that's bad math! sorry

Edited October 19, 2004 by chezcherie (log)

[Bux]

my question would be: did you develop them yourself while attending culinary school? or are the the recipes used at your school? because in the first case, they aren't really your recipes. (in the second case, of course, they are.)

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What's the point of going to school if you can't keep what you learn?

[irodguy]

If you learned them at school, in most cases they are considered public domain.

This is not always true but common use. While not culinary school, there was a similar issue with software development some years ago. The courts ruled that it was indeed public domain.

This is in fact one of the reasons that people don't share their secret recipes or for that matter algorithms in a class room environment.

[nightscotsman]

If you learned them at school, in most cases they are considered public domain. 

This is not always true but common use.  While not culinary school, there was a similar issue with software development some years ago.  The courts ruled that it was indeed public domain.

This is in fact one of the reasons that people don't share their secret recipes or for that matter algorithms in a class room environment.

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This is very interesting. I have refrained from posting recipes from school since they weren't from publicly published textbooks/cookbooks. Maybe I don't need to be quite so confidential in the future? Although I still don't feel quite right about making them public domain.

[Moopheus]

You might want to read this previous thread about chefs leaving restaurants. In the circumstance you describe, I can't imagine the person you were baking for having any legitimate claim on the recipes you were using.

Edited October 19, 2004 by Moopheus (log)

[jim_jimmers]

when we left school, the instructor told us to use the recipes we were given.

what i really meant was that i did not develop the recipe for her. it existed previous to my meeting her.

[loompa]

when we left school, the instructor told us to use the recipes we were given. 

what i really meant was that i did not develop the recipe for her.  it existed previous to my meeting her.

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It is important to keep in mind that a recipe is only a roadmap to help you along. Your knowledge, understanding of the different properties of food, experience in baking, and sweat are what makes your formula yours. You can share the exact recipe to 20 people and you will get 20 different products. No one can take away your experience in baking.

A very well known chef once told me that if one is not willing to share a recipe, it must be because you don't have enough skill or experience to stand out from it.

Share and share alike. By the way, I love macarrons. Would you share that recipe?

Chris

[ludja]

...

Share and share alike.  By the way, I love macarrons.  Would you share that recipe?

Chris

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Lots of info on baking macarons on this egullet thread

[jim_jimmers]

Would you share that recipe?

Chris

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sure

Chocolate Macaroons

7 oz. Almond flour

1 lb 2 oz powdered sugar

9.5 oz egg whites

5 oz granulated sugar

1 t vanilla

3 oz cocoa powder

Heat oven to 375. Combine powdered sugar, cocoa, and almond flour. Whip egg white and granulated sugar to fairly stiff peaks. Fold almond flour mixture into whites in thirds. Pipe out onto parchment paper or silpat. Bake for approximately 12 minutes. Let cool completely. sandwich two macaroons with ganache.

[jim_jimmers]

oh, here's the link to the page that had the class info. (of course you know most of this is to stroke my ego :P )

they just had to misspell my name

[artisanbaker]

i think that she is just feeling a little used. The fact of the matter is that they were your recipes to begin with and there is nothing wrong with what you're doing. I would venture to say that she is really upset about something else and this is just a symptom of her true feelings. If you were considerate enough to ask her if you could teach the class then she should be happy from where I'm sitting.

Regarding personal recipes: I know that at the French Pastry School and other places (particularly French), they give recipes out as if it was a personal gift. That's special and all but I think a confident pro should be able to share a recipe whenever possible. We all know that the practical and technical aspects are most of the challenge and that recipes can be personalised relatively easily. I nonetheless respect someone's desire to keep a recipe under wraps. It can be used as a motivational tool when managing pupils.

I'm very supportive of the charm of the pastry and baking craft, but sometimes I think we take it a little too seriously. I value my ability to create and adapt formulas much more than my book of recipes. As a matter of fact, I usually don't have the recipe that I need and I have to call a colleague/friend or make a post on egullet for example. The spirit of sharing is alive and well throughout our profession, legal documents or not.

[Bux]

oh, here's the link to the page that had the class info.  (of course you know most of this is to stroke my ego :P )

they just had to misspell my name

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Is Walker's Drive-Inn your ex-employer? If so, I see the problem. If you're touting your class as a lessson in how to make their pastries, you're trading on their name and I wouldn't be surprised if they could sue. This is a matter of using their name, not your recipes. If Walker's Drive-Inn was not the ex-employer, disregard this post.

[artisanbaker]

good point

[jim_jimmers]

If Walker's Drive-Inn was not the ex-employer, disregard this post.

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disregarded :)

my main gig is walker's. actually in the original text i sent them, her place was mentioned so she could get some press. the place that held the class put it in the newspaper and on the radio. but they took what i gave them and completely rewrote it.

walker's is one of the better rests. in jackson. so i am sure that is why they played that up.

btw, it was fun playing with the expression of "renowned pastry chef" (not my words). i kept telling my wife that renowned PCs do not take out the garbage. but that did not work.

Edited October 19, 2004 by jim_jimmers (log)

[jim_jimmers]

i think that she is just feeling a little used. The fact of the matter is that they were your recipes to begin with and there is nothing wrong with what you're doing.  I would venture to say that she is really upset about something else and this is just a symptom of her true feelings.

totally

If you were considerate enough to ask her if you could teach the class then she should be happy from where I'm sitting.

reread my original post. i did tell her.

I'm very supportive of the charm of the pastry and baking craft, but sometimes I think we take it a little too seriously. I value my ability to create and adapt formulas much more than my book of recipes. As a matter of fact, I usually don't have the recipe that I need and I have to call a colleague/friend or make a post on egullet for example. The spirit of sharing is alive and well throughout our profession, legal documents or not.

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i agree. to me it was nothing but good for her. it was going to get her name out, drum up business, etc. since my original post, i have spoken to one of her former business partners. (they are interior designers)

former partner says that she is a total control freak and was suprised that she would let someone else be in charge of a project like this. and getting worked up over the class was something about which she could exert some control. she was letting her pathology get the best of her.

[CanadianBakin']

I'm not sure if this post should be here or a new thread but it's to do with recipes and the law so here goes.

Is there any reason you can't use a recipe found on the internet in your restaurant, or coffee house in my case? On betterbaking.com Marcy has this after every recipe:

© This is a Marcy Goldman/BetterBaking.com original recipe

This recipe is for sole, personal use of visitors of BetterBaking.Com Online Magazine. Marcy Goldman/ BetterBaking.com recipes are for your enjoyment but not to be posted or reprinted without express permission of the author/baker. Thank you kindly for respecting my copyright and happy baking. BetterBaking.Com/Baker Boulanger est. 1997 - 2005

Does this mean it's ok to use, just not to print or post? Just want to double check. Any thoughts?

[nightscotsman]

I'm not sure if this post should be here or a new thread but it's to do with recipes and the law so here goes.

Is there any reason you can't use a recipe found on the internet in your restaurant, or coffee house in my case? On betterbaking.com Marcy has this after every recipe:

© This is a Marcy Goldman/BetterBaking.com original recipe

This recipe is for sole, personal use of visitors of BetterBaking.Com Online Magazine. Marcy Goldman/ BetterBaking.com recipes are for your enjoyment but not to be posted or reprinted without express permission of the author/baker. Thank you kindly for respecting my copyright and happy baking. BetterBaking.Com/Baker Boulanger est. 1997 - 2005

Does this mean it's ok to use, just not to print or post? Just want to double check. Any thoughts?

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Good question. I'm not a lawyer, but I would say you can use any recipe, published anywhere - book, magazine or on-line - in your business. Once it's out there I don't think you can restrict it's use.

However, you can restrict the reproduction of the actual words of the recipe itself. The standard we use here on eGullet to include a link to a recipe in your post if it's online anywhere (please do NOT copy and paste the recipe into your post). If the recipe isn't online somewhere else, you must re-write the entire thing in your own words to include it in your post. Here is the complete eGullet copyright and fair use policy that everyone agreed to when they became a member here: User Agreement.

[Mottmott]

Perhaps what she was really angry about: that you're not going to bake the macaroons and eclairs anymore. After all, if you're not baking them for her, then giving out the recipe to students wouldn't constitute any competition anyway.

[boulak]

It is important to keep in mind that a recipe is only a roadmap to help you along.  Your knowledge, understanding of the different properties of food, experience in baking, and sweat are what makes your formula yours.  You can share the exact recipe to 20 people and you will get 20 different products.  No one can take away your experience in baking.

A very well known chef once told me that if one is not willing to share a recipe, it must be because you don't have enough skill or experience to stand out from it.

Share and share alike.  By the way, I love macarrons.  Would you share that recipe?

Chris

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So true and said so well. Fear is a negative motivator. Sharing is the ultimate motivation.

[takomabaker]

I have always worked in the creative departments of advertising agencies. In every job I have ever had, I have been required (as well as my co-workers) to sign a contract stating that any "intellectual property" is owned by the agency during my employment tenure. Mostly this is to keep other agencies from taking clients and then hiring the creative team and taking the entire campaign out of from under them. But I have seen it used for evil purposes. For example, I worked for a large agency that was doing a re-compete for a client they had for 15 years. An art director and copywriter team had been hired several months earlier by one of the other agencies competing for the account. Despite the fact that the art director and copywriter had NEVER worked on the account that was up for grabs when they worked with me, this did not stop my employer from having their lawyers send a letter to the other agency threatening legal action based on the intellectual property contract that they had signed if the agency did not drop their bid for the account. My employer was just being a BIG jerk. The agency that was threatened was a small shop that did not have an entire full-time legal department at their disposal.

I always figured that most of industries that deal in creative or intellectual property would have similar requirements. Don't chefs have to sign similar contracts with employers?

I take pastry courses (whether I actually change my career or not is still in question) and I HAVE noticed that some chefs copyright their recipes and some do not. I have always, as a general rule, not shared recipes that are not "general" recipes. I don't think I would worry about sharing a recipe for brioche, but I probably would not share a recipe for something like twice-baked dried cherry brioche on any public forum or in a setting where I might get credit for it. But I might make my own variation on the recipe and not feel badly about it. Isn't that the point, to use the recipes from those who teach you to get your own creative juices going and to build on their ideas? In which case, you are doing what you are PAID to do as a professional in ANY creative field.