Jean Georges and Nougatine 2005 - 2008

[ckkgourmet]

There is some stasis, but I'm not convinced that it is more than the norm. When dishes persist, moreover, they normally stay for a reason. Does anyone want to give up the famous sea bass or the foie gras terrine brulee?

I recently had the goat cheese royale mentioned in the review. It was sublime--and I think new.

[ulterior epicure]

I haven't eaten there enough for it to be noticeable or make a difference to me if it is in fact the case. What I have eaten there though was good enough for me to eat ovcer and over again on the rare occasions I get to visit there.

Ditto, ditto, and ditto... I totally agree.

Congrats to Jean Georges and his entire staff!

u.e.

[oakapple]

There is some stasis, but I'm not convinced that it is more than the norm. When dishes persist, moreover, they normally stay for a reason. Does anyone want to give up the famous sea bass or the foie gras terrine brulee?

I recently had the goat cheese royale mentioned in the review. It was sublime--and I think new.

←

The Bruni review gives the impression that the menu has become fixed in amber, aside from the usual seasonal adjustments. If true, that is certainly a very different thing than continuing to innovate while retaining a handful of "greatest hits."

[ckkgourmet]

There is some stasis, but I'm not convinced that it is more than the norm. When dishes persist, moreover, they normally stay for a reason. Does anyone want to give up the famous sea bass or the foie gras terrine brulee?

I recently had the goat cheese royale mentioned in the review. It was sublime--and I think new.

←

The Bruni review gives the impression that the menu has become fixed in amber, aside from the usual seasonal adjustments. If true, that is certainly a very different thing than continuing to innovate while retaining a handful of "greatest hits."

←

I agree that these are very different things, but I happen to think that Bruni's assessment (JG as "fixed in amber") is an exaggeration. Certainly Bruni wouldn't know, given that he was not dining there regularly himself (as he stated in the review when he said he had some trepidation about returning to write his piece).

Perhaps the unnamed critics responsible for the accusation of stasis at JG really mean that Jean Georges hasn't reconceptualized his cuisine from top down, meaning that he hasn't reinvented his whole way of cooking, not that the individual plates never change, If this is the nature of the accusation, I think it unreasonable.

Edited April 19, 2006 by ckkgourmet (log)

[chefboy24]

i dont know...french laundry and per se do the same things.

there are dishes now being served, today, at per se that are in the french laundry cook book that came out in november, 1999!

people obviously don't seem to mind.

when a restaurant has a classic dish, people get angry when a chef takes it off. so they keep it on. like the egg / caviar at jean georges, the foie brulee, etc.

[chefboy24]

i wish bruni wrote more then 2 sentences on service, as well. i think more people are more interested in service then decor.

i mean, if you go to urena, and your waiter was a rude aloof f---, you'll remember that, and you won't remember the wall sconces. know what im sayin?

[Eatmywords]

Yes, congrats to the entire staff except maybe the front. I wonder how the "aloofness" reference will be addressed (if at all)

I haven't read a 4 star review by Franco or other in a long time. Are some flaws like those mentioned w/execution and service normal for this honor? I assumed 4 was the absolute pinnacle of perfection all around. I did appreciate that he skipped the Bruni shtick and got right to the food and ambience.

When I ate lunch at Nougatine a few months ago, I was surprised to see JG expediting. I asked the bartender about his presence. He said he spent more time their then the rest combined. I was surprised and wondered how it was possible.

Obviously, it's had a consistent impact on the success.

Bravo JG

[ckkgourmet]

Yes, Long live Jean Georges Vongerichten!

[BryanZ]

Just to go back a few posts, chefboy and others were correct in that my biggest quibble with JG is that much of the menu seems static.

This could be for a variety of reasons. First, I've eaten at JG far more than any other restaurant in its category. I'm not victim to menu fatigue, but many of the same dishes are simply recycled in seasonal forms. I also feel like this is more glaring for JG as opposed to a place like Per Se, since the cuisine at the former is more locked into JG's (the chef) quintessential style. At places like Per Se or Le Bernardin, the cooking is more of a traditional sort, so a repeated dish at one of those establishments seems "classic".

These aren't really complaints, just observations. JG is still an amazing restaurant and deserving of its four stars.

As a side point to somewhat harp on Bruni, wasn't Iuzzuni the pioneer of that style of dessert in the US? It's copied everywhere now, but I could've sworn Iuzzuni really gave it traction.

[Nathan]

I don't believe the chef's tasting menu has changed much in years (I'll also point out that its conceivable that Bruni ate at JG a couple times in the late 90's...)...

the dessert format was the same 2 and 1/2 years ago (the last time I ate there).

btw, that egg, creme fraiche and caviar is to me still the most ethereal dish I have ever had...

[Nathan]

ok..here's some confirmation on the "chef's tasting menu"

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:iwyUM3...s&ct=clnk&cd=11

as of March of this year the menu was the same as what I had 3 years ago...other than the amuse and perhaps the squab.

(btw, that was a near perfect meal, with near perfect -- if not exactly warm -- service.)

[ckkgourmet]

At places like Per Se or Le Bernardin, the cooking is more of a traditional sort, so a repeated dish at one of those establishments seems "classic".

←

I think this is a very good point. I'd agree that JG's style of cooking emphasizes things like discovery and surprise much more than many other great chefs'. Your comment raises the question, however, of whether or not it is reasonable to hope for more variety from a chef like JG than, say, Keller and Ducasse? I do not know the answer.

On the other hand, if we are to evaluate JG as a creative individual (rather than concentrating on the particular issue of the restaurant itself), it is only proper to expand the scope of our discussion to places like Perry St. There are a number of wonderful and original creations on that restaurant's menu that suggest, I think, that JG's creativity is alive and well. That is not to say that we shouldn't have that creativity directed into his flagship restaurant too, but it is to say that it may not be the fault of the chef's imagination (which is sometimes implied).

And btw, I will say that at Perry St. we naturally see a very different JG than we see at the flagship. The dishes at Perry St. strike me as being far more distinctly Asian, and specifiically Chinese, than even the things he has done before. There is a greater earthiness and richness. In dishes like the crab dumplings, the laquer sauce is so rich as to evoke the muskiness of the Gobi. The wonderful chicken is a play, in my opinion, on Peking duck with a wonderful crispy skin. My point is simply that JG is exploring and evolving. And I think I've seen some of this trickle back to the flagship on Columbus Circle. Last week there was a wonderful dish of tuna ribbons in a wonderful, Chinese-style sauce. The flavor was much more robust and "authentic" than the Asian inflections I've had there in the past. I do not know for certian whether it is a new or old dish, but I have never seen it before there myself. Perhaps change is afoot!

Edited April 19, 2006 by ckkgourmet (log)

[rich]

The only problem with a static menu is boredom - not to the patrons, but to the cooks who must prepare the same thing day after day.

For the patrons - I don't think many people eat there often enough to become burned out by the menu.

The cliche - if it's not broke, don't fix it, appears to apply here.

[ckkgourmet]

The cliche - if it's not broke, don't fix it, appears to apply here.

←

But I think this forum has largely accepted Bruni's characterization of JG without properly evaluating whether or not we really should accept it or not. I obviously am skeptical, but am willing of course to hear other opinions.

Edited April 19, 2006 by ckkgourmet (log)

[docsconz]

The cliche - if it's not broke, don't fix it, appears to apply here.

←

But I think this forum has largely accepted Bruni's characterization of JG without properly evaluating whether or not we really should accept it or not. I obviously am skeptical, but am willing of course to hear other opinions.

←

I neither accepted or refuted this position as I stated that I wasn't really in a position to do so. For me, I always enjoy creatvity, but for the frequency or lack there of that I dine there and what I go there for it really doesn't matter so much.

[ckkgourmet]

I neither accepted or refuted this position as I stated that I wasn't really in a position to do so. For me, I always enjoy creatvity, but for the frequency or lack there of that I dine there and what I go there for it really doesn't matter so much.

←

I didn't mean my comment for you, but more generally.

But, I should add that I have heard (but cannot confirm) that lunch in the formal dining room is often more creative than dinner there.

[ulterior epicure]

But, I should add that I have heard (but cannot confirm) that lunch in the formal dining room is often more creative than dinner there.

Dunno.... I've had one of each and I would say that they were both spectacular in their own way. To be honest, I had fun during both meals. But, maybe it was because my lunch happened on a particularly nice sunny day and it was a leisurely lunch that I think there was a more "light-hearted" spirit to the occasion and the food. I thought creativity was certainly not out-shone by one menu as opposed to another...

One of my guests during the lunch did have pretty much what I had as a dessert a year-and-a-half prior at dinner... not that I minded, it was so good, I could eat it everyday.

On my latest visit, I was able to try at least four of Bruni's recommended items. Funny, while they were all great, not one of them was among my favorites from our meal... I guess maybe we just have different tastes.

u.e.

Edited April 19, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[ckkgourmet]

The fun you mention, u.e., is something I regularly experience at JG!

It is not something, however, that I experience regularly at other restaurants that I consider truly repetitive. In that category, I would place Bouley. I gave up on this particular restaurant awhile back. It's food was variable only in the quality of preparation. The menu very rarely changed. I think the Bouley of say 2 years ago is the true model of "fixed in amber" stasis.

[R Washburn]

. In that category, I would place Bouley. I gave up on this particular restaurant awhile back. It's food was variable only in the quality of preparation. The menu very rarely changed. I think the Bouley of say 2 years ago is the true model of "fixed in amber" stasis.

←

That is my impression as well.

[BryanZ]

I also find that the current generation of huge name American chefs (Boulud, Keller, Bouley, JGV, Ripert) is in some way being eclipsed by the younger generation (Achatz, Dufresne, Cantu) at least in terms of creativity. Then there are people like Jose Andres who bridge the gap.

Anyway, I somewhat digress. It could be construed that chefs like JGV are at a disadvantage in that their flagship restaurants are literal institutions. People go in, expecting certain things. I, too, appreciate the creativity of a restaurant like Perry St., but also understand how food like that doesn't quite fit the four-star model.

[ckkgourmet]

I also find that the current generation of huge name American chefs (Boulud, Keller, Bouley, JGV, Ripert) is in some way being eclipsed by the younger generation (Achatz, Dufresne, Cantu) at least in terms of creativity.  Then there are people like Jose Andres who bridge the gap.

Anyway, I somewhat digress.  It could be construed that chefs like JGV are at a disadvantage in that their flagship restaurants are literal institutions.  People go in, expecting certain things.  I, too, appreciate the creativity of a restaurant like Perry St., but also understand how food like that doesn't quite fit the four-star model.

←

I'd agree that Dufresne has a better stage on which to perform creativity. But even at WD-50, one of my favorite restaurants, one finds quite a few favorites next to newer items.

Any restaurant has a style and repetory that becomes familiar to connoisseurs there. The question is when this becomes unacceptable. I would say it become unacceptable at Bouley, but never has been unacceptable at JG, which I continue to think is no less innovative with than itsleading peers.

Edited April 19, 2006 by ckkgourmet (log)

[BryanZ]

Agreed on all points.

[oakapple]

I haven't read a 4 star review by Franco or other in a long time.  Are some flaws like those mentioned w/execution and service normal for this honor?  I assumed 4 was the absolute pinnacle of perfection all around.

←

No restaurant is perfect, and even four-star reviews usually pick a nit or two. That said, the complaints here were a bit louder than one usually finds at a four-star restaurant. I suspect that Bruni thought long and hard about whether JG deserved to keep its stars. I also suspect that if the identical restaurant opened today in another part of town, it would receive three stars.

There were probably other factors that made Bruni hesitatant to demote JG. He has already demoted two of the five restaurants that received four stars from his predecessor. I think there would be a credibility issue if it starts to look like he is categorically rejecting previous opinion. How many sacred cows is one guy going to slay in a year and a half?

Also, there are only 5 four-star restaurants right now. At some point, the top rating starts to become irrelevant if it's too hard to get.

When I ate lunch at Nougatine a few months ago, I was surprised to see JG expediting. I asked the bartender about his presence.  He said he spent more time their then the rest combined.  I was surprised and wondered how it was possible.

It's possible because, for all intents and purposes, all of his other restaurants are in the hands of underlings.

[ulterior epicure]

He has already demoted two of the five restaurants that received four stars from his predecessor.

ADNY and....?

u.e.

[rich]

He has already demoted two of the five restaurants that received four stars from his predecessor.

ADNY and....?

u.e.

←

Bouley