"coffee shop" vs. diner

[alacarte]

I stopped for a Coke in a coffee shop yesterday. It reminded me that I hadn't been in a coffee shop for some time, and that it might be a dying breed. Lately, when I think of "coffee shop" I think of Starbucks, not a formica countertop and a burger deluxe.

I can't figure out the delineation between a coffee shop and a diner. Is it as simple as hotel vs. motel (i.e. a diner provides parking)? Is the difference in the menu? Is there a standard definition, anyway? I can't help feeling that they are not the same thing, but I can't articulate why.

[Andrew Fenton]

I believe the difference is an historical and architectural one: "diner" is short for "dining car", and originally referred to a prefabricated, metal building: lots of them were, in fact, converted railroad cars. A "coffee shop" serves the same kind of food, but in a regular building. As diners qua diners have disappeared, there's been a convergence between the two, and I don't think most people make much of a distinction now.

Edited September 27, 2004 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[babyluck]

I'll try this one--here's a few thoughts:

A coffeeshop has a more limited menu. Short enough to be posted on the wall rather than published in an 8-page folio. Not open for dinner.

[chile_peppa]

There may also be a regional element. The kind of place I know as a "coffee shop" in Chicago was called a "diner" where I lived in New York. We don't have those former diner cars here. Chicago coffee shops often have a huge menu, encompassing "breakfast all day" to sandwiches to dinner specials. I've often wondered how the cook can have such a wide variety of food ready to serve within a moment's notice.

[melkor]

A coffee shop (at least out here) doesn't have an active hot kitchen. You can often get baked goods, sometimes a sandwich, but rarely more than that at a coffee shop. Diners often serve columbian coffee exclusively while coffee shops will be more focused on espresso based drinks.

[jgarner53]

When I think "coffee shop," I see a building with mid-60's decor (lots of brown and orange), formica counters with vinyl stools, women servers in polyester uniforms and beehive hairdos (with the little tiara thing stuck in it), pouring a pot of stale coffee. Menu is barely palatable renditions of American favorites: denver omelettes, stacks of pancakes at breakfast, club sandwiches, burgers, meatloaf.

When I think "diner," I see a retro-styled building (old RR car not required), lots of chrome, maybe a jukebox at the booths, main colors of black, white and red, and better-tasting versions of the same classics. Probably great milkshakes, too.

[NulloModo]

I think it is all semantics.

When I think 'coffee shop' I think basic coffee, maybe espresso and cappucino, with baked goods, maybe salads, and sandwiches.

When I think 'coffee house' I think full coffee menu ala starbucks.

When I think diner I think basic coffee plus a huge menu, breakfast all day is a must, plus lots of ethnic specialties, usually Greek/Italian/Middle Eastern plus lots of burgers, wraps, salads, sandwiches, and good old fashioned American greasy spoon fare. A good diner is hard to beat. Very rarely do they do everythign well exceptionally well, or even anything exceptionally well, but to have the huge selection with it all being tasty and availible 24/7 (a diner must be open 24 hours to be a real diner IMO) is always nice.

Edited September 27, 2004 by NulloModo (log)

[jmcgrath]

I stopped for a Coke in a coffee shop yesterday. It reminded me that I hadn't been in a coffee shop for some time, and that it might be a dying breed. Lately, when I think of "coffee shop" I think of Starbucks, not a formica countertop and a burger deluxe.

I can't figure out the delineation between a coffee shop and a diner. Is it as simple as hotel vs. motel (i.e. a diner provides parking)? Is the difference in the menu? Is there a standard definition, anyway? I can't help feeling that they are not the same thing, but I can't articulate why.

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I don't think I ever ran across a coffee shop as I was growing up in the '60s. Coffee houses were a different thing. A place to hang out with the alternate culture, drink coffee, and listen to folk songs. Diners were a place to eat; everything from omlettes to grapenut pudding. It wasn't until I moved to the Boston area in the mid-'80s that I ran across coffee shops, the Coffee Connection since replaced by Starbucks for example. I can't remember anything serving both coffee and burgers that was not a diner.

Woolworths was a 5 & 10 that also served food. The local drugstore had a soda fountain but no grill. Horn & Hardarts was a quasi-restaurant. I guess I've never run across a coffee shop.

Jim

Edited September 28, 2004 by jmcgrath (log)

[viva]

This thread made me really hungry for a good diner. Where I'd have a patty melt, fries, and a cherry coke. And pie.

I don't really use the term "coffee shop". Probably because I'm not a big coffee drinker.

[herbacidal]

I agree with Andrew's comments about diners originally versus currently.

I do think there is less distinction between diners and coffee shops on the West Coast and more on the East Coast.

I can't think of anyplace on the East Coast that is called a coffee shop that I would term a diner.

But I can recall passing a few places in the Bay Area that had signs that said coffee shop with menus I would apply to diners.

But I don't believe they fit my criteria for diners, which go along with what a friend of mine suggested.

A) they have their own bakeries (I can see this criteria being less common among diners in urban areas since the real estate isn't as cheap nor is the diner as important to the community as the good suburban diners are) to theirs

B) they are open 24 hours

[Pan]

I call places that aren't open 24 hours "diners." To me, a diner is an inexpensive restaurant that serves pancakes, waffles, french toast and the like plus eggs several ways, omelettes, and some kind of home or/and french fries and stuff for breakfast, makes a bunch of kinds of sandwiches, has some big main dishes that include meat plates (things like turkey with gravy, roast chicken, roast beef, meatloaf) and also makes salads and soups. Some kinds of dessert are always available. Tea, coffee, and soda also have to be available, and I also think of a diner as a place where beer is available, too, though that might be partly regional.

I agree with Kara that there used to be a lot of coffeeshops and there are very few left. I guess I think of a coffeeshop as a place that was mostly for having coffee, with the food (except donuts and such) much more incidental than at a diner. Diners will serve you coffee, to be sure, but they're more about the food, which is generally hearty. My local diner is Teresa's, and it covers all the bases I mention above, while also featuring Polish food.

[phaelon56]

A coffee shop (at least out here) doesn't have an active hot kitchen. You can often get baked goods, sometimes a sandwich, but rarely more than that at a coffee shop. Diners often serve columbian coffee exclusively while coffee shops will be more focused on espresso based drinks.

It's way different here on the east coast although things are changing. Yes it is a matter of semantics but the distinction babyluck made between stand-alone joints in dining car type buildings and those in a storefront is a good place to start.

In the metro NYC/NJ area a diner may be more upscale than the traditional greasy spoon diner but I think those archetypal places in NYC with a counter, some booths and a limited breakfast and lunch menu fit my classic definition of a coffee shop.

I categorize the places that have a bakery on-site and a huge menu with all kinds of food (and sometimes even mixed drinks!) "New Jersey Style Diners". These are indeed a separate category from classic greasy spoon diners such as the Bendix Diner on Rte 17 in Hasbrouck Heights.

[Jason Perlow]

In the New York metro area, coffee shops are also referred to as "Luncheonettes" and occassionally they use both terms in combination. That means they are only open during breakfast and lunch hours, most of them close before 6.

[Andrew Fenton]

According to the OED, "coffee shop", at least in the US, refers to a "café or restaurant, usu. attached to a hotel, where meals as well as light refreshments can be bought". They have a few citations, e.g. a 1940 letter from Groucho Marx:

Met Ira Gershwin this morning in the coffee shop at the Essex.

I'd never heard of coffee shops being specifically attached to a hotel; this seems like an out-of-date usage.

Interestingly enough, in British India, "coffee shop" meant something somewhat different:

a place at which the residents of a station (esp. in Upper India) meet for talk over a light breakfast of coffee, toast, etc., at an earlier hour than the regular breakfast of the day; the name is also applied to the gathering, and so to the halt of a regiment for refreshment on an early march, etc.

[jgarner53]

See, now the idea of a coffee shop attached to a hotel is absolutely not foreign to me. It seems to meld perfectly with my mental image of the coffee shop. Even in an urban environment. A place that would allow the weary traveler a quick bite or cuppa joe before heading out to meetings in the morning, or at the end of a long day, without having to spend extra time or effort to seek out such things outside the hotel. Kind of one-stop shopping for travel.

I think that the outgrowth of that is hotels with their own complete restaurants (and in larger hotels, many have more than one, or a restaurant and more casual dining, akin to a coffee shop).

When I think "coffee shop," I see a place not unlike the restaurant in "Pulp Fiction." That, to me, is a coffee shop, not a diner.

[herbacidal]

When I think "coffee shop," I see a place not unlike the restaurant in "Pulp Fiction." That, to me, is a coffee shop, not a diner.

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I think that's what most East Coasters, including myself would call diners.

In the New York metro area, coffee shops are also referred to as "Luncheonettes" and occassionally they use both terms in combination. That means they are only open during breakfast and lunch hours, most of them close before 6.

I think that's true elsewhere too, and I think of luncheonettes as diners in everything but those two criteria I mentioned, having the bakery and being open 24 hours.

When I think of coffee shops, I usually think of them having some sandwiches and baked goods brought in from elsewhere, but no real kitchen on site other than a toaster, toaster oven, and sink. Plus coffeemaker and espresso machines.

I agree with Pan's consideration of Teresa's a diner. It has the feel I think of when I think about a diner. Perhaps it is more of a luncheonette.

This is the Teresa's on A or 1st just above Houston?

[tommy]

I call places that aren't open 24 hours "diners."

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most diners in NJ are open 24-7.

i always thought that diner(s?) on 10th ave were open 24-7. i don't know of many other diners in manhattan, other than the Comfort Diner, which is probably not open 24-7.

[hshiau]

there are diners all over manhattan...some are 24x7, some not. i used to frequent Starlite Diner on 69th & 1st (closes around 1am). there's also City Diner on 90th & Broadway (24x7). of course you may consider these coffee shops but they do have a full kitchen and serve a wide variety of food.

[bloviatrix]

I'm with Tommy on the hour thing. I've always considered one of the requirements for the diner be that it's open 24-7.

[hshiau]

I'm with Tommy on the hour thing.  I've always considered one of the requirements for the diner be that it's open 24-7.

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So diners are 24x7 and coffee shops are diners that aren't 24x7? I define diners by the food I can get there at any hour....omelet, donut, salad, triple decker sandwich, souvlaki, soup, spaghetti, etc. I don't begrudge the fact that many diners do not have enough traffic to stay open all night.

I kinda feel that coffee shops are diners with less variety. They serve more of the breakfast/lunch items but do not serve the souvlaki or spaghetti types of food.

[reesek]

I call places that aren't open 24 hours "diners."

pan - what do you call places that are open 24 hours?

jgarner - what you described as a coffee shop evoked the vivid images of the show "alice"...but wasn't mel's a diner?

in DC (and elsewhere?) we used to have hot shoppes - definitely an old fashioned coffee shop. it differed from a diner in that it always had a long counter and lots of (factory) fresh baked goods. they served a full menu, but it was more of a soda fountain, dessert/afternoon snack kind of place.

the idea that diner = ethnic...i'm not sure i agree though i would agree that diner menus are typically longer and more varied...but i've been to plenty of diners that thought wheat bread was exotic.

[Pan]

I agree with Pan's consideration of Teresa's a diner.  It has the feel I think of when I think about a diner.  Perhaps it is more of a luncheonette.

But it's open until 11 P.M. and serves dinner.

This is the Teresa's on A or 1st just above Houston?

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1 Av. between 6th and 7th Sts.

[Pan]

I call places that aren't open 24 hours "diners."

pan - what do you call places that are open 24 hours?

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24-hour diners!

[phaelon56]

pan - what do you call places that are open 24 hours?

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24-hour diners!

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