Why can't I make chewy cookies?

[chromedome]

<sigh> Yep, hot spots.

The technician dude who came out and calibrated my ovens told me that my whole oven deck should be the same temperature, and I didn't believe him until I put it to the test. I guess the primary reason that the back corners bake things faster is simply that the door is in the front; but I suspect there may be something to the airflow as well.

I have one large convection deck that's used for pizzas during the day and cookies at night, and three stacked ovens with a proofer underneath which are used for muffins, scones, coffee cakes, etc. I'm thinking I might have my night girls (not being parochial, here, they're quite young) double-pan the sheets on either side; the middle is not usually an issue.

When I first move into a new house I always bake a sheet of flour or barley or couscous or something just to see visually where the hot spots are in my new oven. I may have to do that at work, too...though I guess with the convection oven I might have to use barley. I can't say I enjoy the thought of burnt flour blowing around the place.

Of course a large part of the problem, too, is that they simply haven't been baking long enough to know when a cookie is done vs. underdone vs. overdone on a consistent basis. Their background is in the Tim Horton's chain, where they scooped with a particular scoop and baked for a hard-and-fast time in an oven that never had its temperature changed. Variables are not something they've had to cope with, previously.

They're good kids, and they're working hard and giving it an honest effort, but time is becoming an issue. By November, we're going to be running our asses off to keep up with the catering orders (and in a week or so we're launching my new line of pastries in conjunction with the revamped coffee bar, so there's a whole 'nother product to incorporate into the routine...), so I really neeeeeeeeed to get them up to speed over the next 3-4 weeks. Unfortunately I can only pull one night shift with them per week, because of my other responsibilities in the store. Gonna be a bit of a struggle, I think.

Sorry, Soba, I've pulled us a bit OT. For what it's worth, Wayne Gisslen's "Professional Baking" gives three key points for chewy cookies:

High sugar and liquid content, but low fat

High proportion of eggs

Use stronger flour, or mix longer after the addition of the flour to develop gluten

[Sobaicecream]

Sorry, Soba, I've pulled us a bit OT.

Hi chromedome, being just a home cookie maker, I really enjoy reading the posts by the professional bakers. Even when someone's writing about a particularly tough moment, I always feel kind of wistful to be in that industrial-sized (in my imagination) kitchen as well, up to my shoulders in flour and butter.

Good luck with conquering the hot spots!

[chromedome]

I'm a longtime home cook and baker myself (career-changer and new cooking-school grad at age 40). I have to say, that even on the days when I arrive home in a near-coma, I've had a great deal of fun with what I do.

During inventory I found all kinds of interesting things including feuilletine, gianduja paste (just add it to melted couverture), sliced hazelnuts, and some sort of bizarre orange "white-chocolate" stuff. I'm not one to let things go to waste, so I'm going to enjoy finding ways to use up all this stuff!

[Msk]

3 Chips for Sister Martha--Good Eats Transcript

For the sake of information in this thread.

Msk

[andiesenji]

I haven't read through all the posts so someone else may have mentioned this. A chewy cookie depends on moisture being retained in the dry ingredients and sugar definitely retains moisture in the product.

However if you are cutting back on sugar you can use some other "tricks" to help retain moisture and tenderness but still have a chewy texture in quick breads, scones, cookies and similar baked goods.

In your recipe, substitute 1 cup of oat flour for one of the cups of regular flour.

If you can't find oat flour, it is easy to make your own by simply putting some rolled oats in a blender and pulsing the blender until the oatmeal is fairly well ground to a coarse to fine meal.

You can try it in a food processor but I have found that does not work as well as a blender but you have to do a little bit at a time because it does not circulate the way a liquid does. (Unless you have a Vita-Mix blender which is designed for dry grinding wheat, oats, etc.)

You know from experience that oats take up a lot of moisture and expand when moistened. The cells also hold onto this moisture for a long time, releasing it slowly into the surrounding material, which is why oatmeal bread stays fresh and moist much longer than pure wheat bread.

Scones made with oat flour will stay fresh for two or three days(sometimes longer) while a regular scone is stale and hard in one day(or less).

I have been doing a lot of baking with Splenda and now the makers have come out with a Splenda/sugar mixture especially for baking.

You might give it a try also, but do experiment with the oatmeal or oat flour. I think you will be pleased with the outcome.

[Kapuliperson]

Using honey or maple syrup instead of sugar will help your cookies become chewy. Good luck.... otherwise you can just make them thick and then leave them uncovered for a few hours or even overnight.

[Toliver]

At the risk of upsetting a few people............ Alton Brown is not a baker at all!

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Not a professional baker, no. Never said he was. However, baking is chemistry and chemistry is chemistry no matter who uses it. He discusses, in the show mentioned, the chemistry of ingredient interaction and the "why" of why cookies turn out like they do (see the transcript). Doesn't matter whether they're chocolate chip cookies or oatmeal...ingredient interaction will behave the same way for either recipe.

And as you pointed out, there are also external factors that can influence how a recipe will turn out. Regarding "hotspots", I'm wondering if a flat "pizza" stone (as discussed in other threads) would help even things out inside an oven with hotspots.

[Sobaicecream]

It's funny because in my very first post, actually, I mention (maybe whine) that even Alton Brown's recipe didn't work for me. And in fact, what originally prompted this post was me trying AB's chewy cookie recipe and still producing puffy cakes.

Of course, early on, I was quickly corrected that I had NOT technically used AB's recipe, since I'd completely changed the amount of sugar that was required.

[Wendy DeBord]

However, baking is chemistry and chemistry is chemistry no matter who uses it.

Baking is more then chemistry. If it was straight chemistry everyone would be able to produce the same exact product with the same recipe. It seems logical, but in reality baking is chemistry played out in an ever changing enviromental circumstance where method plays a huge role on how the chemicals react and if they do so repetitively.

Chemistry reactions are only the same if all the same ingredients are used in a controled enviroment, with a controled method being applied. But when you take a different recipe with different ingredients- those other ingredients interact and can block or enhanse a "known" chemical reaction from happening. So each recipe is a unique arrangement of chemistry that doesn't remain the same as other chemicals are presented.

I don't think any professional chef/cook/baker would label Alton Brown as a 'chef' at all. He's an entertainer, in my opinion. His show takes a unique approach looking at cooking and baking as a science. He makes very good arguements as to why his approach is correct or better or easier because he's using science. He simplifies steps or justifys steps according to his science. But there's an aspect to baking and cooking that isn't part of his show.......he intentionally doesn't highlight that factor because he's trying to simplify/to de-mystify cooking and baking. He puts forward that anyone can bake or cook if they simply apply scientific principals. I think that's admirable and enjoyable, but not always accurate.

[nightscotsman]

Baking is more then chemistry. If it was straight chemistry everyone would be able to produce the same exact product with the same recipe. It seems logical, but in reality baking is chemistry played out in an ever changing enviromental circumstance where method plays a huge role on how the chemicals react and if they do so repetitively.

Chemistry reactions are only the same if all the same ingredients are used in a controled enviroment, with a controled method being applied. But when you take a different recipe with different ingredients- those other ingredients interact and can block or enhanse a "known" chemical reaction from happening. So each recipe is a unique arrangement of chemistry that doesn't remain the same as other chemicals are presented.

I don't think any professional chef/cook/baker would label Alton Brown as a 'chef' at all. He's an entertainer, in my opinion. His show takes a unique approach looking at cooking and baking as a science. He makes very good arguements as to why his approach is correct or better or easier because he's using science. He simplifies steps or justifys steps according to his science. But there's an aspect to baking and cooking that isn't part of his show.......he intentionally doesn't highlight that factor because he's trying to simplify/to de-mystify cooking and baking. He puts forward that anyone can bake or cook if they simply apply scientific principals. I think that's admirable and enjoyable, but not always accurate.

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Excellent post and well put, Wendy! I completely agree with both of your points here.

[chromedome]

Regarding "hotspots", I'm wondering if a flat "pizza" stone (as discussed in other threads) would help even things out inside an oven with hotspots.

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I use one of those at home, but my deck ovens at work are inconveniently large for that...

[mktye]

chemistry is chemistry no matter who uses it.

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I agree with that on a molecular level -- chemical reactions are chemical reactions no matter what, but when you throw in environmental variables (including "who uses it") it can quickly get more complicated.

My lab partner throughout college was a disaster (although entertaining). He once mistakenly used a strong acid instead of a strong base and the reaction vessel blew up throwing glass and boiling hot hydrochloric acid in a 10' radius. The human factor can be huge.

Plus, the common "chemicals" of baking are not pure. Flour, butter, sugar (food grade) and eggs are produced through biological processes, purified very little during processing and, therefore, vary greatly between batches.

As Wendy so nicely put it:

Chemistry reactions are only the same if all the same ingredients are used in a controled enviroment, with a controled method being applied. But when you take a different recipe with different ingredients- those other ingredients interact and can block or enhanse a "known" chemical reaction from happening. So each recipe is a unique arrangement of chemistry that doesn't remain the same as other chemicals are presented.

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In my experience, baking is more like biochemistry. A zillion variables and far too many unexplainable failures.

The way I see it is that baking is a science and bakers are the scientists continually experimenting and researching the methods, ingredients and techniques to produce a reliable (and tasty) outcome for their environment.

Sobaicecream -- good luck with the chewy cookie research. It is only sugar, flour, butter, eggs and such and there are very few totally inedible failures, so don't be afraid to experiment. And when you do discover a less-sweet, chewy cookie method, please report back so others can learn from your experience.

[Bond Girl]

I made some of the chewy-est oatmeal cookies by substituting half of the white sugar with brown sugar and using egg whites instead of whole eggs. So if the recipe called for two eggs I use one egg and two egg whites. It works somehow. I don't know the science aspect of it.

[Rachel Perlow]

I'm sure it has to do with having less fat and more protein than the original recipe.

[chromedome]

Fat softens your product. Protein toughens it. Egg whites are mostly protein, while the yolks have some protein but a lot of fat.

Brown sugar also has more moisture in it than granulated white sugar, which will help.