Taillevent Merged topics

[orangewasabi]

http://www.lavinia.fr/LaviniaFR/ficha.aspx?Id=2491

EU28.05

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[orangewasabi]

I checked Lavina's website and found this, would this be it?

perfect!

Thank you for all your help!

p.s. I had a citron presse today and got water -- it all worked out.

[Felice]

p.s. I had a citron presse today and got water -- it all worked out.

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I'm glad

Thank you so much for such a great post, makes me think I need to go to Tailevent for lunch.

[ameiden]

Orangewasabi,

When I had my first meal at Taillevent about twenty years ago I was only 17 years old and ate by myself! The treatment I got was exactly the same as any other diner received. Jean Claude Vrinat in fact seemed very pleased that a teenager was interested in grande cuisine. (At that time, one ate a la carte at lunch times as there was no difference to the dinner menu.) Taillevent has always been famous for great classically inspired food, knowledgeable wine selection and reasonable prices. And most of all - faultless service. No need to say that I went back many times during the past 20 years. And I have never been disappointed.

[orangewasabi]

When I had my first meal at Taillevent about twenty years ago I was only 17 years old and ate by myself! The treatment I got was exactly the same as any other diner received.

that's amazing and delightful to hear!

Today we ate at Le Cinq. And while the service was excellent there, Taillevent was superior.

[John Talbott]

Orangewasabi,

When I had my first meal at Taillevent about twenty years ago I was only 17 years old

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Since we've crossed the nostalgia/"Can you beat this" time border, in "homage" to our founding French Forum host Bux, I offer this remembrance - I first set foot in Taillevent with America's recently departed greatest eater and America's current greatest gourmet, some 32.5 years ago when I was minus 10 years old (that's the only joke). I remember three things - (1) It was very reasonable, yes, reasonable, recall that once the franc was 10-1, the pound at par, (2) I was not up to snuff that night and (3) the wine list (not the real/huge carte) on the 4th page was awesome (and was mounted for years on one of our living room tables). A great cathedral to French Cooking. Long live it! Edited December 28, 2006 by John Talbott (log)

[cmling]

I am confused. Not that I want to delve into the question of your evidently quite tender age at the time, but I don't understand the currency equations.

I am, however, old enough to remember that France, even Paris (almost), was once inexpensive.

Tempi passati...

[John Talbott]

I am confused.  Not that I want to delve into the question of your evidently quite tender age at the time, but I don't understand the currency equations.

I am, however, old enough to remember that France, even Paris (almost), was once inexpensive.

Tempi passati...

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At the risk of wandering Off Topic, I'll simply say that the "old" franc depreciated for a long time against the greenback, for instance, in 1945 it was 119 FF to the USD, reaching almost 500 in 1958; then was devalued so 100 old francs (OF) = 1 new franc (NF); but it again weakened vs the dollar, reaching 5.48 NF in 1968 and if memory serves me, reached its high in 1984-5 of 10.6 NF to 1 USD; since then though it's strengthened vs the $ and at the time of conversion to the Euro was 6.55957 NF for 1 USD.

In any case, to get back on topic, places like Taillevent were not astronomically expensive in the old days and we went to Pere Bise in 1984 where our bill for breakfast, dinner and room was less than $200. Pere was failing in those days and no longer at the piano, but the food and lodging was still top drawer.

In the Gault-Millau 1969 English edition, Taillevent's prices were given at 12-15 $ (60-75 Francs) with carafes of "good little wines" at $2 (granted Chateau d'Yquem was $250). Reading someone like AJ Liebling who lists a garlic sausage or a carafe of wine in 1926-7 at 50 centimes one must Google the conversion rate to know how much of a bargain this was (about 23 centimes to 1 $).

A footnote; I still know folks, who seeing things in Euros, convert first to NF and then to OF. And I have my own method of conversion - I assume 1 Euro = 1 $ and Colette handles the Visa statements, so I'm happy.

[grace3]

I just received a nice message and confirmation of my reservation for October 19 from Monsieur Vrinat! Looking forward to it and enjoying it as much as I enjoyed being there a little over a week ago. This time I will have a friend with me on her very first visit to Paris! I told her that Taillevent would be a most memorable event for her.....

[lalala]

I have luncheon reservations for monday, february 26 (my birthday)! Whoo hooo. Must remember to call and reconfirm.

My TH went with her father and one of his dear friends in 1995 for dinner. Her father was celebrating his latest book and she said it wasn't the best 3 star meal she had eaten, but still it was impressive.

I have only eaten at one other 3 star and am looking very forward to my meal.

lala

[ameiden]

I have only eaten at one other 3 star and am looking very forward to my meal.

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Well, it will be no longer a three-star restaurant when you get there. Very sad story, this.

[David Lebovitz]

I ate at Taillevent this week and it was quite good. We had the fixed price lunch (70E) which has to be one of the best bargains in Paris. The food was terrific and the wine list is amazing and well-priced for what you get...and the service was gracious and lovely. The only downside was that we were seated in the 'American' room, which we noticed as soon as they led us in there as the volume was about 3x greater than the rest of the restaurant. (I could hear each and every word one particular woman was saying from wa-a-a-ay across the restaurant.)

Re: Losing a star-I don't think people should go or not go to a restaurant because of some star-rating that may or may not be accurate. I've eaten at one of the newly-3 starred places that was, frankly, horrible, and others in Paris that were passable but not exceptional. (I do recommend Astrance though!) It's merely one or two people's opinion and shouldn't necessarily be taken as gospel.

Edited February 22, 2007 by David Lebovitz (log)

[Felice]

People might be interested in reading Taillevent's blog, with this entry by Jean-Claude Vrinat answering questions about why they might have lost their third star.

http://taillevent.com

[John Talbott]

People might be interested in reading Taillevent's blog, with this entry by Jean-Claude Vrinat answering questions about why they might have lost their third star.

http://taillevent.com

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Thursday in Le Figaro there was an interview with Jean Claude Vrinat of Taillevent in which he makes several points, some of which repeat what he said on his website. First, that he knew this was coming a month ago when he had his interview with the second-in-command (M. Mespledes) rather than the Director at the Michelin who had been only once and that a year ago; second, that Mespledes said his meal was totally different from that of 8 years ago but he couldn’t recall the food consumed (ergo, he thinks Michelin is cavalier, kicked him in the rear and has lost its ethics); third, that as opposed to prior regimes, this one handed him no letter with their findings/suggestions; fourth, that while the products he uses are still of the same high quality, the cuisine has “evolved” – fewer heavy sauces, more veggies, etc; fifth, that he’s not clear how he regains his third star and cannot see how some restos merit them while others shouldn’t be so blessed; sixth, that he’ll listen to his clients (before a guidebook) and will change nothing now; seventh, that the charge of running too many covers a night through is ridiculous; next (and most interestingly), that guidebooks are less important than they used to be and blogs, the Internet and word-of-mouth are more influential although dangerous if uncontrolled and finally that the Michelin, through this act, is sending the message that no one is untouchable and is stepping over his body to make its point. “But you’re an institution!” “Like Bocuse.” Answer “Yes, then why don’t they go after him ?”

[Hectorp]

John: Thanks for the digest. The Babelfish translation of the Taillevent blog was a little bizarre.

I feel like writing Mr. Vrinat a warm message of solidarity. I feel like I could stand with a rustic pitchfork outside the Michelin HQ. This sudden passionate surge...this sense of having been wounded and wronged on the topic of cuisine...have I just turned into a Frenchman?

[Fat Guy]

My one meal at Taillevent was at best a two-star, and more like a one-star experience. We sampled quite a lot of dishes and the food just wasn't as good as what was offered at the other three-star (or two-star) restaurants we'd been to. Not really in the same category. The space, the style of service (if not the execution), all those things had their charms, but the food was third-tier. If Michelin is really signaling that it's going after the restaurants that have been hanging on to undeserved three-star ratings, that's a good thing -- if it's done even-handedly. If it's just a question of singling out Taillevent, that's not credible.

[Fat Guy]

This is what I wrote at the time (circa 2001):

TAILLEVENT

If I had something nice to say about Taillevent I'd say it, because to speak ill of this restaurant -- one of the world's most beloved -- is to guarantee myself several hundred incidences of hate mail. In polls of even the most sophisticated travelers, Taillevent is often ranked as the world's best restaurant. Moreover, Taillevent's owner, Jean-Claude Vrinat, is so charming and such a seemingly decent guy that I feel guilty picking on him. His presence and sense of hospitality are felt throughout the restaurant, and it's easy enough to let his personality sweep you away. Sadly, however, Taillevent just isn't a particularly great restaurant. Though all the trappings of the best three-star establishments are well represented, there is little beneath the surface other than the tremendous wine cellar. You certainly receive a lot of service, enough to merit an "A+" on any hotel-school final exam, but whether it is noteworthy service is questionable. The food itself, at least the many dishes I've tried, is utterly unremarkable -- it is neither interesting nor particularly well rendered. Moreover, and I've previously spoken of the concept of generosity, Taillevent is the opposite of generous: It is stingy. I speak not of large versus small portions (though the portions at Taillevent can be rather meager) but, rather, stinginess in areas such as the amuse bouche and petits fours, as well as in the restaurant's manifest attitude towards the consumption of food: Taillevent seems, to me, the ideal three-star restaurant for people who don't particularly love to eat.

[David Lebovitz]

This is what I wrote at the time (circa 2001):

TAILLEVENT

If I had something nice to say about Taillevent I'd say it, because to speak ill of this restaurant -- one of the world's most beloved -- is to guarantee myself several hundred incidences of hate mail. In polls of even the most sophisticated travelers, Taillevent is often ranked as the world's best restaurant. Moreover, Taillevent's owner, Jean-Claude Vrinat, is so charming and such a seemingly decent guy that I feel guilty picking on him. His presence and sense of hospitality are felt throughout the restaurant, and it's easy enough to let his personality sweep you away. Sadly, however, Taillevent just isn't a particularly great restaurant. Though all the trappings of the best three-star establishments are well represented, there is little beneath the surface other than the tremendous wine cellar. You certainly receive a lot of service, enough to merit an "A+" on any hotel-school final exam, but whether it is noteworthy service is questionable. The food itself, at least the many dishes I've tried, is utterly unremarkable -- it is neither interesting nor particularly well rendered. Moreover, and I've previously spoken of the concept of generosity, Taillevent is the opposite of generous: It is stingy. I speak not of large versus small portions (though the portions at Taillevent can be rather meager) but, rather, stinginess in areas such as the amuse bouche and petits fours, as well as in the restaurant's manifest attitude towards the consumption of food: Taillevent seems, to me, the ideal three-star restaurant for people who don't particularly love to eat.

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Well, the must've (thankfully) gotten a little more generous with the food, since at our lunch (70E), we got a platter of gougères to share, then each got a foamy little bowl of crisp bacon, eggs, and cornichon essence (which sounds foufy-er than it was), which was followed by 3 full-courses.

Afterwards, each guest was presented with a plate of 5 sweet mignardeses (so there was no fighting over who got what, which was a welcome touch.) They also let us pick any of the desserts from the regular menu instead of the one on the fixed menu, which was nice touch too. I thought it was quite a bit of food for the money. Originally I wanted to go with a larger, multi-course menu to get the feel of the place, but for the 4 of us, we felt we'd had plenty.

Edited February 23, 2007 by David Lebovitz (log)

[pierre45]

My one meal at Taillevent was at best a two-star, and more like a one-star experience. We sampled quite a lot of dishes and the food just wasn't as good as what was offered at the other three-star (or two-star) restaurants we'd been to. Not really in the same category. The space, the style of service (if not the execution), all those things had their charms, but the food was third-tier. If Michelin is really signaling that it's going after the restaurants that have been hanging on to undeserved three-star ratings, that's a good thing -- if it's done even-handedly. If it's just a question of singling out Taillevent, that's not credible.

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My last meal at Taillevent was 2 years ago ,even though I had eaten there a few times previousely , I stopped going there because the food was uninspired and definitely not 3 stars.However the wine list,specially burgundies was exceptonal. The service was outstanding and mr Vrinat unbeleivably gracious.It was after midnight when we finished dinner and on a rainy night we had to wait over 45 min for a taxi.He asked someone from his staff to drive us to our apt. So one can see as to why Taillevent is beloved by many .

[Fat Guy]

The wine list is amazing, and well priced.

[Fat Guy]

Comparisons have been made, not least by the men themselves, between the New York restaurateur Danny Meyer and Taillevent's owner Jean-Claude Vrinat. When Danny Meyer was developing the concept for Gramercy Tavern, he overtly wanted to do an American version of Taillevent. He felt Vrinat's priorities -- hospitality above all else -- were the most worthy of imitation, and chose Taillevent as the model even though the food is better at most of the other three-star-type restaurants in France.

And I think, at some early point in their evolution, the Danny Meyer restaurants were flawed in the same way Taillevent is: the main characters behind them cared more about hospitality than about food, and it showed. But in the end, if you're running a restaurant and your food isn't as good as it can be it reflects poorly on your hospitality. I think Danny Meyer learned this lesson awhile back and as a result has been upgrading the chefs at all his haute-cuisine restaurants, to the point where he now has Daniel Humm, Michael Anthony and Gabriel Kreuther carrying the culinary ball.

Vrinat needs to do the same thing. It's a straightforward fix. He needs a superstar chef, and he needs to let that chef cook.

[Jon Tseng]

Vrinat needs to do the same thing. It's a straightforward fix. He needs a superstar chef, and he needs to let that chef cook.

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Interesting point

I think the question is whether an old-school "restauranteur" can be the leading ilght of a modern *** establishment, or whether you necessarily now need that figurehead to be the chef.

Maybe is it the latter, a reflection of the increasing drive for innovation and personality-driven cooking at the top level.

Thinking back at the great restauranteur-driven temples of haute - Taillevent/Vrinat, Tour D'Argent/Terrail (x2), Point post-Point (i.e. when his widow was in charge) - these have all fallen away today.

Then again I think about the modern corporate gastro-empires of Ramsay or Ducasse and aren't they they same thing - top-level (joints which may have a superstar chef on the front door, but don't necessarily have him in the kitchen. Did Didier Elena or J-F Piege count as superstar chefs? Maybe I suppose.

I dunno...

Hmmm

J

J

[Fat Guy]

Did Didier Elena or J-F Piege count as superstar chefs?

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Certainly not when they came to their jobs. But it's a different situation. They had Ducasse and the Ducasse system (the ADF, stages throughout the Ducasse empire, the Ducasse written repertoire) to train them, oversee them and provide them with top-notch sous-chefs, line cooks, pastry chefs, ingredients, tools and everything else. Vrinat has no such comprehensive capabilities, so he needs a stand-alone great chef right from the start of the relationship.

[Carlsbad]

Five of us had dinner at Taillevent two years ago, and thoroughly enjoyed it. The service and setting were just about perfect. I found the food to be very generous, especially for the price, which is quite a bit lower than most luxury restaurants in Paris. We thought it was a bargain.

The quality of the cooking on our visit was high. It was a nice blend of traditional with some modern touches, much like the setting. Several of the dishes were quite memorable, especially a superb crab soup. Soliveres brought a definite South of France influence when he became chef in 2002. I'm not sure the cooking before he arrived is a good basis for what is being served now.

The wine list is extraordinary in both its scope and its pricing, and there are many very reasonable wines that compliment the style of cooking. We will definitely return next summer, despite the loss of a star.

[Fat Guy]

Carlsbad, do you think Alain Soliveres operates at the level of chefs like Marc Veyrat, Marc Meneau, Pierre Gagnaire or even a two-star chef like Olivier Roellinger?